cessna195

Desperate in San Diego

Hi,

My name is John and I have a 1966 Olds 442. I have rebuilt the engine do to broken piston rings. I now have a .020 bore with new bearings new cam and lifters and I had the block and heads gone though. I have discussed this problem before on this site with you people being very helpful. This is my problem.

When I first start it up the oil pressure goes right to 40 to 45 lbs. Then about 40 seconds later the pressure drops to about 20 to 15 lbs. This is with a cold engine and cold oil. When I drive it the pressure goes down to 0 lbs. when I go into corner. It seems like the oil is moving away from the oil pick up. I have used three different oil pressure gauges.
I have removed the engine three times looking for the problem and still no fix. I installed both a new stock oil pump and pickup and a new high volume pump and pick up and still no fix. I have torn down the engine one time and had everything recheck. The bearings were check and were ok. It seems to me that the oil is not returning to the bottom of the pan fast enough to keep the pump from sucking air and the oil pressure goes to 0 in the turn when the car is in a turn. I have only run the engine long enough to get it up to operating temperature once. The only thing I have not checked are the valve lifters. I have new lifters and new cam shaft. I think I read somewhere on this site that if you have Chevy lifters in the engine it could cause a problem. I got the cam and lifters from Kantor. I also installed new lifters and push rods. What is the difference between the Chevy lifter and the Olds lifter? I would hate to have to remove the engine for the 4th time and still do not know what to fix. I am using a valley pan under the intake manifold.
Could this be the problem? I do not think so because I do not see how the oil could get on top of the valley pan. What could be keeping the oil from returning to the bottom of the pan fast enough to be able supply the pump. I have rebuilt a lot of engines in my time and have never had this problem before. I know the engine is tight enough because I would not get 40 lbs. at start up with a cold engine for 40 to 60 seconds before the pan is oil level drops below a safe level. When I start the engine and just run it at idle it stays at 40 lbs. a little longer before the pressure drops. I have check the oil filter and oil filter pressure check valve also. I do not know what else to look for. Any ideas of what to look for would be appreciated. I would not have to install a Chevy engine in the car to get it back on the road. Just kidding.

John

Redog

The only thing I see that is wrong is the Chevy lifters. The carb and disturbtor caps are the only parts that swap between a SBC and a SBO

z11375ss

Instead of searching for a cure on CO, why don't you find a very good mechanic through word of mouth (there is one in each town) who really knows his ****. Explain your problem and hand it over to him. Tell him you don't have a blank check and you need to approve all experiments that are going to cost money beforehand. I have scratched my head so many times I am bald because of some info I did not have that someone already had the same problem with. Unfortunately it's usually a hands on experience to fix these things. I wish you luck.
I just R and Rd a Muncie and had the shift levers pointing down instead of up. I could not figure it out. My friend Nate first told me to use the install tool Hurst provides. That didn't work. I finally got it to shift through all four gears, took it out and the shift pattern was upside down. Called him back and said, WTH? He told me about the shift levers. I changed them and it worked like it should. I was completely lost and the car was down for three weeks. what a shame. You just need someone who knows about Olds.

getawaycar

John, you have to be so unbelievably frustrated. I am not very knowlagable about olds specifically, but I am a very good mechanic and an engine is an engine is an engine. Maybe what you need is a fresh set of eyes. I live near downtown and work in El Cajon.

Have you tried running the engine with the valve covers off? Oil will spatter, but it should drain back into the engine before overflowing from the heads. Also you could pull the distributor and spin the lube pump with a drill to watch how the oil drains.

Is the engine currently removed? Have you considered building a stand to run the engine out of the vehicle or see if you can find someone with an engine dyno to help diagnose it? It could save you a lot of time and frustration to make sure it is fixed before reinstalling it again. Building a stand to run the engine is not difficult if it is something you want to try.

Chris

Rickman48

Is the pickup on the oil pump in the correct place?
You might be able to check it by looking back in the drain hole.

TripDeuces

"What is the difference between the Chevy lifter and the Olds lifter?"

The difference is the oil feed hole. The Chevy hole is lower and causes the hole to become uncovered when the lifter drops down on the base circle if installed in an Olds engine. This will drop oil pressure dramatically as you might imagine.

Let us know what you come up with.

Willidog

There used to be a guy that worked at JBA in San Diego that was supposed to be good with Olds engines, don't know if he still works there or not though.

http://jbaracing.com/

BlackGold

Were any of those a known-good mechanical gauge? If not, remove your send unit and screw in a mechanical gauge (any good mechanic should have one, if you don't want to buy one) to see if it agrees with your electric gauges. The send unit is a common failure. I've seen similar symptoms.

cessna195

I have used two other known to be good oil pressure gauges attached to the engine at the front of the engine where the electric sending unit attaches to the engine. I got the same reading that the mechanical gauge inside the car said. The electric gauge is useless. The light only comes on at about 3 lbs.

Thomas Simcich

I had an oil pressure problem with my 66 as well. The problem was the oil filter! The guys on this site asked me if I was using a FRAM filter on the car. And I was using a FRAM. They told me to change it and use another filter, I believe I used a WIX and no more problems, the pressure is perfect. Check to see if you are using a FRAM and if you are CHANGE IT. Something about a FRAM filter that does not work on an OLDS engine. I never would have solved the problem without the help of the people on this site.

cessna195

Thomas.
I have a AC oil filter on the car. I have had the same oil pressure problem with three different oil filters.

Thanks for the tip.

John

1968Cutlassfallbrook

What type of oil are you using? Also have you thought of a 7 quart oil pan if you're afraid of it sucking air?

oregontopcat

Sounds like triple dueces may have your answer, for sure those lifters must be changed but here are some other possiblities. I once lost a cam galley plug which gave the same results you are getting although the lifters clattered when hot. I have seen the oil pressure relief in the oil pump stick open and cause a drop in pressure hot. Did you plastigauge the bearings for clearance? Actually I would expect higher than 40psi when cold maybe more like 60 then drop to 40 when hot. Just a few more thoughts!

drec02

I am having the same problem as you are and I think it is my lifters also, I havent gotten the chance to even check mine though because I spend all of my daylight hours working on other people's vehicles seven days a week (when will this recession end). If you get the chance to check/change your lifters before I do let me know if this solves the problem. I purchased the Edelbrock RPM cam and lifter set so I don't think mine are chevy, however at some point I think I might have over adjusted one or two and have caused them to fail. Anyways PM me if you solve the problem before I get to mine.

cessna195

drec02,
I will let you know when I find the problem.

John

cessna195

First of all I would like to thank Chris Komasa for coming out to my hangar and helping find what the problem is with my car. We removed the left side valve cover and set a bath towel by the head to catch the oil if any was to over flow and spill out of the engine. We then started the engine and in about 10 seconds about a qt. of oil were pumped out of the engine. The towel did no good. There were 8 streams of oil coming out of the top of the push rods. I have never seen anything like it. It was like 8 squirt guns squirting oil on to the inner finder. This must explain why the oil pressure was dropping after about 40 seconds of run time. All the oil was on top of the engine in the valve / rocker area of the engine. There is so much oil being pumped up there that it could not return back to the bottom to the engine fast enough to keep the pump from sucking air. Chris and I think there is something wrong with the lifters. What else could it be? Monday I will be going out and purchase new set of lifters and see if this solves the problem. Anybody else have any suggestions on what the problem could before I purchase the lifters? Thanks for any help.

John Nance

getawaycar

John, I was glad to come out and look at your car with you. It was great to meet somebody from the website, and I feel honored to be a part of getting your beautiful car back on the road. We will have to get together again; without oil pressure problems though!

Chris

getawaycar

It really was spectacular the amount of oil streaming out of the rockers onto the fender. And that was just at Idle speed! I would love to hear what some of the other guys have to say about it.

Chris

cessna195

Well I think I found out what my problem is with my oil pressure problem. I removed the intake manifold and removed some of the lifters and I took the lifters a pushrod and cam card to the Fly By Night J cam shaft maker on Otay Mesa (Chula Vista) about a ½ a mile from my hangar at Brown Field Ca. to ask the smart guys what could be my problem. I bought a mild cam from them for my car. I got about ¼ of the way through my story when the smart guy said they gave me the wrong cam and that was causing the over oiling of the valve train. He then told me to bring the old cam and the one in the car and he will show the difference in the cams. (The cam metering groove or what ever they call it is for a different Olds engine and was wrong.) They are going to give me the correct cam and another set of lifters. All this after removing the engine three times trying to find out what the problem was. I know have a new question. Can I remove the cam without removing the engine a fourth time? I have not had enough time to look at the car to see if it is possible. Next time I will be more careful when installing new parts and double check to see I am installing the correct part. Well live and learn. I will keep you guys posted. Thanks for any help on removing the cam with out removing the engine.


John Nance

oregontopcat

I guess I am missing something here, I believe the lifters get their oil from the oil galleys which run front to rear on each side of the valley. The cam gets the oil to its bearings from the rifle drilled passages between the main bearings and the cam bearings. I don't see the connection between the over oiling of the upper end and the cam. The only possiblity which I can see is that the cam journals were in fact to small and you were losing oil pressure there. However that does not explain the oil from the rockers. You normally get a pretty good stream of oil from the rockers, that is the reason for the oil diverter clips which you install when you have the valve covers off. Anyway just some comments, I learn something new each day, keep us up to date. Dave

drec02

Hey what was your outcome did you fix the problem or are you still diagnosing?

cessna195

The problem was solved with a set of Smith Brothers restricted push rods. I also checked the oil galley plugs and they were in the correct position. All the oil was up in the cylinder heads. The lifters that I used were from Kantor. When I talked to Smith Brothers about my problem they said the sell allot of push rods to people like me who are having trouble with too much oil up top in the engine. The only thing I can think of is the lifters are allowing too much oil to pass through the lifters. Also have very good oil pressure. 55 to 60 lbs. at startup when cold and 25 to 30 at idle when the engine is at operating temp.

John

BlackGold

That's good news. You're right: it is the lifter's responsibility to meter the oil. Restricted pushrods, obviously, are another way.

RAMBOW

did i read earlier that you have a high volume oil pump?

I think i've read quite a few places that thats a no-no for olds motors due to the oil return issues.

glad you were able to resolve it w/o pulling the motor back out of the car though!

cessna195

I had a brand new stock pump in it when I rebuilt the engine the first time. I had the same problem with all the oil up top in the engine so I thought I had a problem with the new oil pump. At the time I did not know it was a lifter issue and I thought it was a pump issue so I installed a high volume pump and I had the same problem with it as I had with stock pump. After thatI found out about using restricted push rods after I found out it was a lifter issue and all the oil was on top. The high volume pump is still in the engine and the engine seems to be running ok.


John

Davesrocket

FWIW, I've been running a high volume pump in my 455 since 1985, along with the Toronado 6 qt. pan. As long as it has more than 5 quarts in it, there is not problem. IF the level drops below 5 quarts I will start seeing fluctuation in the pressure. No oil restrictors either. 30,000 miles later all is well.