Thomas Simcich

Any thoughts or comments about the 66 442 Track Pack currently on Ebay in Naples Florida?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-...item4aa61b0834

bil

A link would help....Thanks. ---bil

joe_padavano

The car is beautiful, but as with any complete resto, were the rare options on the car "back in the day" or where they installed during the resto? That may not matter to you. I'm always skeptical when the seller sidesteps telling specific details, like the fact that the Track Pack "was an over-the-counter accessory that could be installed by either the dealer or the customer. It consisted of hoses, inlet bezels and shroud."

OK, so did the original owner install it, or did the CURRENT owner install it? If it's an original shroud and scoops, these are rare and valuable parts, but I still question the authenticity of a $70K car.

TK-65

Im pretty sure that car was found in a junk yard down in Florida or Georgia, and all the W30 stuff was added, including the tri carbs. Its been thru mulitple owners and multiple Barrett Jacksons, now with paperwork it didnt have when found in the junk yard. Dont quote me but someone on another board claimed they found it and restored it.

bil

This car is part of a very extensive collection of 66 W30s and Trac-Pack cars. It was restored by the previous owner in 2006.In the article,there are no claims to be original,nor is there any indication it is not. I believe there were around 100 Track-Pack setups make,I don't know if it would show up on the protect-O-Plate. The article says 'restoration' but as to what may have been added or not,no mention. It is a beautiful,rare car nonetheless. I may be able to scan the article if anyone wants it.It features 3 of his 66s,all very nice. ---bil

joe_padavano

By their very nature, Track Pack parts were bought over the counter and installed AFTER the car was delivered from the factory, so even ignoring the fact that the original 54 factory-built W-30s are not so indicated on the P-O-P, any parts installed post-delivery will definitely not be so indicated. The Track Pack parts could have been installed at any time in the last 44 years.

todd66442

It is a nice car, Just don't know if I would spend 90k on something I was unsure of.

Oldsmaniac

Agreed and while that 66 is sweet it seems to have a Barrett price tag. Trac Pac cars in my opinion are just a cut above a regular 442 without documentation. Documentation would be a receipt from the dealer showing date of purchase or install. Hear-say or the game some play similar to the child's game of "whisper down the lane" is meaningless IMO. Although my 67 Trac Pac car seems period without documentation I would have to value it just a cut above the standard 442 allowing for the OAI parts.

gearheads78

My favorite year and favorite color combo.....yes please

Ranzan

Honestly ...... it would cost more to restore with complete w-30 hardware.... fair price
I would take the white one he has to

66400

The Protect-O-plate very clearly shows the engine unit # as being a 4brl car.

The Tri-Carb package was offered over the parts counter as a conversion kit for the 66 brl 400.

The car with or without documentation is a trac pac car by the presence of the OIA parts regardless of installation date being 1966 or 2010.
Henry

66400

I think the rear end code on P-O-P will tell the tale for a W-30 car.

Henry

Thomas Simcich

What information does the Protect-O-Plate provide?

todd66442

My mistake, he dropped the price to 69K. I'll take it!
My favorite color combo and year too GearHead!

joe_padavano

Personally, I would feel much better if the seller was completely above board and just said the parts were added during the resto. The weasel words in the ad always set off alarm bells and make me question what other "weasley" things were done to the car.

aliensatemybuick

I NEVER tire of bringing this up:



(and as background):

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...k+pack&start=6

joe_padavano

I'm sorry, but what exactly is that letter from 2005 supposed to prove?

"The special components... ...are authentic..." - OK, so the shroud and scoops are factory built parts and not repros. I think that's a given.

"To the best of my knowledge..." - THAT will certainly hold up in court.

Bottom line is that any letter from 2005 is not, in my opinion, factory documentation as discussed above. Sorry, but I can't even read the signature. Besides, I can make an identical letter with my word processor. As noted above, show me a dealership receipt from the time when the parts were still available. Show me anything that indicates that this car was not simply assembled from parts during a restoration a few years ago. Yes, the parts are valuable and rare. I just wish people would man up and admit that their rare "restorations" are actually an assembly of collected parts.

aliensatemybuick

Interesting that you should bring up "holding up in court"....sorry, could not resist.

joe_padavano

Simply a figure of speech, but seriously, if one spends $70K and the merchandise is not accurately represented, expect the lawyers to get involved.

aliensatemybuick

Ah, but the lawyers (well, one anyway) ARE already involved.

joe_padavano

Ah, I'm a little slow...

todd66442

Appear to be correct is the Key Word here.

aliensatemybuick

And here I thought you were being droll.

After all, who but a lawyer could come up with a self-titled (how absurd) "Letter of Authenticity" with such parsed language as to be equal in value to toilet paper?

Pity its never quite enough for some people to simply have a nice car.

Run to Rund

And, "I never tire" of reminding people that there were three authentic, factory approved, types of 66-7 W30s. (1) factory built cars to get NHRA approval, and in the case of the 66s apparently the dealers were asked to try to sell them to people who would race them; in 67, a letter from Olds said the package was not intended for daily commuting (2) existing racers, especially in 66, were given the parts by Olds engineering to convert their cars before the NHRA Nationals and maximize Olds' chance of winning C/Stock; (3) parts were available in kit form and individually through the parts dept so anyone could convert their cars.

If you want one of the factory built cars and see it as similar to a COPO chevy or something, great, and they are probably worth more because of this "pedigree." If you want a genuine, real 66-67 W30, Olds engineering didn't care who made the conversion or when. in fact, Olds would happily sell you all the correct, genuine, real parts you would need to convert your F85 6 cylinder automatic car to a "real" 4-4-2, L69, W30. If the resulting car won, it was perfectly fine to them. No sneering about clones, or "it isn't real." That's how it was back then.

None of the race cars at Indy for the 66 NHRA Nationals were factory built (of the 54 in 66).

aliensatemybuick

I have a few last things to say about this car: it is beautiful, and I would love to own it or one even CLOSE to as nice as this one. I believe the current owner/seller to be a decent and honest guy. I don't think it is currently being misrepresented. I DO think it has been misrepresented in the past. Though as with other such misrepresentations, one has to wonder...why bother? Why insinuate that its a "dealer installed" track pack car when (as Run to Rund would argue) it doesn't really matter? Why also, in the case of another car for example, change a cowl tag only to hide the fact that the car had a color change in its past?

The only possible reason is to maximize profit upon sale based on the presumption that such bogus practices DO matter when that is the goal.

Thomas Simcich

I found this while surfing for cars. http://greatvehicles.chooseyouritem..../14266971.html

How about that, same photo! Does not look like a post coupe to me, but I've been wrong before!

Smoke442

Hi Everyone,

I am the owner of the Black Track Pack W30 that is for sale on Ebay. I would like a chance to let everyone know I am trying to represent this car as what it is and with all the information I know about it.

I know someone said something about the verbage on the auction. My daughter put this up for me and didn't really know exactly what to put on there so she used some verbage out of the article about the car.

As far as the letter of authenticity, that was how it was advertised with a previous owner. I have not and did not use that letter in the auction for the car. When I purchased this car from the gentleman that purchased it at Barrett Jackson it was delivered to me with documentation, protect-o-plate and that particular letter. I deleted the letter from the documentation as I don't feel it is warranted to have. The Track Pack system was installed during the restoration of this car.

It did come with the factory tach and it shows that in my photo documentation. I just want everyone to know that I go to the furthest extent to represent these cars as to what they really are. I am an honest and above board guy and any questions that arise about the car will be answered to the best of my knowledge.

The fact remains that the car is in pristine condition and I am not asking Barrett Jackson prices for the car. I am trying to be fair with the pricing and the representation of the car.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Bud

joe_padavano

Please don't take this as a criticism, just my version of the math. The car is clearly a beautiful resto, from what can be seen in the photos. Value is obviously only set once cash changes hands.

The very upper bound for a completely restored No. 1 condition 1966 442 4bbl 4spd car is somewhere around $50K if you believe the price guides. Yes, I know I've criticized these price guides in the past, but that's the only data point available. Again, that's the absolute maximum that such a car would bring at auction. Personally I'd set that price at closer to $40K, but that's certainly open to debate.

Now for the math.

A complete tripower setup with the Track Pack parts is probably worth about $10K. Again, that's just for the parts. Add that $10K to the $50K and one might think that this car in question is priced at greater than the sum of its parts. Of course, a documented W-30 or Track Pack car with some history may bring more money due to perceived value, which is why "restorers" tend to pile on rare options during a restoration. Note also that a No. 1 condition car can't be driven - it's usually just pushed from the trailer to the show field and back. If the car is driven at all, it's not a No. 1 condition car, and the price is decremented accordingly.

Again, not a criticism, just one person's opinion.

bil

The true value is what someone is willing to pay.It is worth that amount to them. If I wanted one of these (I do!) and wanted to go the route Joe mentioned-First I would need to find a real 66 442 4 speed 4bbl car.In the condition this one is in,or have it brought to this condition.Then I would have to find all of the tripower setup,and the TrackPack equipment.And have it all installed to the factory/dealer specifications. Time,energy,etc. Or I could decide that my time was worth something, my time here on earth is limited, there is a finite amount of these exact cars and parts, and I want one now. That would cost more than the first way,so I decide if it is worth it.
Thank you,Bud,for the post.I have had the magazine with your cars in it on my desk since it came out,along with an older magazine with #13 66 w30,another favorite of mine. ---bil

joe_padavano

Or, you could go the route that the person who built this car appears to have done, and find a car in need of restoration, find all the parts, and install them during the resto. The cost is no different if you bolt on a 4bbl or a 3x2bbl intake when you build the motor. Unfortunately, this math is why nearly every frame off "restoration" you see today is a fully optioned musclecar, despite the fact that the vast majority of these cars did NOT come with many options from the factory. This is also why documented cars carry a price premium.

bil

Well,since you put it that way, yes,you are right. (as usual!) Most of the restorations I have seen done on muscle cars tend to have the extra options. If the paperwork is present, I would hope they would only install what was originally there,but it is their call.Hypothetical question.Track-pack was availlable to anyone over the counter in 66, correct? If someone had ordered a 66 with the nessesary set-up,then also ordered the Trackpack from the dealer,with receipts, how soon after would he have to install it to be considered a track-pack car? Original owner,all nessesary equipment,all receipts. Could he have held on to the car until this year,then installed the equipment? For authenticity purposes is what I mean.
And what about other,less important options and assessories? If someone decided to add the Kleenex dispenser,bought it,then didn't install until 5 years later,would that make the car incorrect? Not being a wise guy,I was just wondering what others might think about this.Thanks. ---bil

Oldsmaniac

It was told to me by a 67 W 30 expert that most Track Pack conversions were installed 1-2 years after the car was sold new. To me period conversions would have more attraction than one of recent. How to prove when the conversion was done is hard unless someone knew the car before the transformation. As R to Rund said the conversion could have been done years ago or yesterday and in theory all are legit Track Pack cars. Without documentation as said earlier which would be a dated sales slip little can be proven..... Such cars would have to be taken at face value and the buyer would decide how much to pay. As for early factory w30 cars, without documentation you can prove the car is not a w30 but hard to prove that it originally was one.

66-3X2 442

I know of a private sale of a 66 OAI cleaner only that was $10K. A restored all original complete and I mean complete 3X2 setup is $4-5K. The rest of the kit is probably $1500-$2K.That puts the value of the Tack Pack at least $15 K plus. There have been two 3X2 Track Pack cars @ auction recently. One sold for $110K and the other was a no sale @ $70K and is currently on eBay with a BIN of $82,500. If you restore any car correctly and unless you do ALL of the work yourself,$40-50 K is the minimum minus the value of the car. The seller of this car in no way misrepresented anything about it. I know this car and once owned it when it was white and a 4V car. The fact that he showed the POP is proof enough that he was straight up about it. ANY 66 442 with the Track Pack kit is legit because no matter where the kit was installed,dealer or in the driveway,it's a Track Pack car. The "dealer installed" is just a name that has been hung on these cars since way back. Another thing,Olds offered the 3X2 kit over the counter also and that can be added along with the Track Pack kit to make a Track Pack 66 W-30. The letter that was shown above to "document" this car should have NEVER been written IMHO.

442oldslawyer

I wrote the letter and I stand by it. If you do not like it --- I don't care . I have later learned that it was installed at restoration by an ROP member who I know and respect. The car brought 65 k plus commissions at BJ serveral years ago. The current owner knows it and is a stand up guy. It is a great car and nicer than most . For the rest of the naysayers .. KMA

aliensatemybuick

Didn't you hear? The only person here who might have KYA was banned a couple months back. I'm sure if you go back to ROP though, you can still get a smootch.