Changed oil & filter the other day for the 1st time since I've had it. Drained for 45 minutes. Added 1/2 qt to the filter and 4 qts to the pan. Ran it for 10 mins and checked for leaks. Shut it off and let it set for 30 mins. Pulled the dipstick and it was 1 1/2 inches over full. I think I put 200 miles on this baby running it close to 2 qts low!!

It's a chrome aftermarket stick, but the tube looks original. This stick measures a tick over 18" from the top of the bonnet to the full mark.

Anyone out there with a stock '65 400 who could do a measurement for me?

Supercars Unlimited was the only place I could find that listed a stick for 65-67 early 400's. They didn't have it in stock and when they get it it's $70.

Thanks...........Steve

 

I have an "original" '65 400 with the "original" dipstick. Here are the dimensions from where the "bonnet" seats on the tube:
Full mark: 16-3/16"
Add 1 mark: 16-15/16"
Add 2 mark: 17-15/16"
Bottom of stick: 19-1/16"
The original part number (marked on the stick) is 386319. The Olds parts catalog says that it is group number 1.516 and the same stick also fits Dynamic 88, Delta, Jetstar I, Starfire, & 98 (in addition to 442). (Different part numbers are shown for F-85 330 V-8, J88 and the V-6 engines.)
If the pan is stock it should require 4 quarts. If you use one of the "large" (original style) oil filters, it should require approx. 1 quart.

 

You can just replace it with a 68 and up dipstick and tube if originality isn't a big concern. As long as the stick matches the tube it doesn't matter what year it's from.

 

Thank you both. Yup, mines too long! The oil level on the stick is 16-1/2". 1/16" low. Since this was a one owner original, I'd like to keep it that way. I'll start with some Reno/Sparks junk yards and see what happens. Otherwise get into the wallet for $70.

Thanks again guys.........Steve

 

I wouldn't worry about getting the "correct" dipstick. Next time you change the oil, run the engine for a while, shut it off, let it sit so the oil drains back into the sump, then pull the stick and scribe a mark at the oil level. You'll know that level is correct because you just filled it up.

By the way, why 4 1/2 quarts? Should be a full five. Unless you have an undersize filter, the paper element will eventually suck up more than half a quart.

 

Hey Joe: When I bought it the 1st of this year, nobody told me the stick was too long. So I put 200 miles on it with it being over 2 qts low and the oil level right at the full mark. I could scribe this one and know what it means, but what about someone else?

The filter is a short barreled AC PF/24. Do they even make the long ones anymore? 1/2 qt was about all it would take. 4 qts in the pan, run it, check for leaks, shut it down and wait. Then pull the stick to see how much more I have to add to get to the full mark. Except that didn't happen with this stick.

I will get the correct stick so there's no guessing on my part or anyone else.

Thanks.........Steve

 

Alright guys. I know this is a rather old thread, but I am using the search feature to help me find a solution to my problem. Read my comments before you question why I chose this thread to add to. If it needs to be moved to a new thread, then so be it.

I have (had) a noisy lifter. Sounded like it was on the #2 cylinder. When cold the engine oil is right on the full mark..~5qts total. I start it up and after a min or so the lifter becomes noisy. After a lot of research I found that this could be a number of issues i.e. stuck check ball in lifter, flat spot on ball, flat cam lobe, low oil, etc....

So I just started round 2 of my investigation. I purchased an external engine oil gauge from the auto parts store. On the cold start I had ~60psi of pressure, within a minute it dropped to 10psi. Ouch! I turned off the key and thought about it. I pulled the dip stick after a few minutes and it was on the full mark. So I decided to check the oil while it is running. I watched the gauge drop yet again to 10psi and I checked the oil. The stick was completely dry!!!! I guess the pump is working.

I then decided to add about 1/2 a qt of oil while running. The gauge shot up from 10psi to just above 40psi and held steady. I checked the dip stick again and it was dry. I gave it a little gas and the pressure rose close to 60psi. It is important to note that the lifter is no longer noisy. Hmmm. Low oil was one of the potential root causes.

I wonder if I have the right dip stick??? 1967 400 E block. The dip stick says 4qts with 386319 stamped on it, which is what led me to this thread. From the bottom of the stick's grommet, where it rests on the tube, to the bottom is the stick is 18-1/4". As far as I know, this is the original dip stick/tube as my mom is the original owner. Frame off restoration and the engine was the first item rebuilt (4yrs ago) just because my dad was worried about the block. I am certain that this is the original oil pan.

My guess is that the engine builder, who has since passed away, may have put a high volume oil pump on it either on purpose or by mistake. Maybe the pump is sucking the pan dry and putting air in the system, thus causing the noisy lifter...

So do I keep adding oil until I hold steady at 60psi at idle and ignore the dip stick? Assuming it is a high volume pump, would this be ok since it is sucking the pan dry anyway? Another important bit of information, the engine has less than 500 miles on it. Even though it was rebuilt 4yrs ago, it has only been running since Spring 2015 and only as a Sunday driver to and from local shows.

-Jeff

 

Drain the oil. Replace the filter. Fill with exactly five quarts of oil. Start the engine, run long enough to fill the filter, shut off and let the oil drain back into the pan. Now check the level. If the dipstick is wrong, scribe a mark at the correct level.

A high vol pump won't suck the pan dry. Clogged drainback holes will, however, delay the return of the oil, however a four year old rebuild shouldn't have this problem.

 

Check to see if the oil drains from the head are completely open (especially the lower one). If the rebuilder did something irregular there could be too much oil being retained "on top" causing the pump to suck air (though it would seem like more than a minute would be required to get it up there). Your stick part number is the same as the one on my '65 400 engine, which I know is original. If the tube and pan are original on yours, Joe's suggestion should confirm it. Also, as your stick will only show a lowering of a bit over two quarts in the pan, a dry stick doesn't tell the whole story. An update on your findings would be interesting.

 

I plan on draining the pan tomorrow as Joe suggested. See how much comes out. If less than 5qts I will pull the valve covers. I know I started out w 5qts when I started this little investigation. I should have be around 5-1/2 now as that got my pressure back up and stopping the noisy lifter. What are the chances oil is getting on top of my valley pan slowing things down a bit?

 

Perhaps the oil pump pickup is too far away from the bottom of the oil pan, so it is not picking up the oil as it is supposed to?

 

" Maybe the pump is sucking the pan dry and putting air in the system,"

This shows a lack of understanding as to how the oil pump works.
oil pump 101:

a high volume pump does indeed pump more oil than the comparable std issue pump per revolution.

Where does this oil go?

Well, some of it goes thru the filter into the oil system passages and exits at various bearings and clearances within the engine.

But, ALL of the oil pumped over and above the volume that can pass thru the engine's oil passages at the given pressure, temperature, and speed.... all of that excess pumpage goes.... past the oil pressure relief valve back to the INLET SIDE OF THE PUMP.

The pump cannot magically move lots more oil upstairs just because it has bigger gears.

Any oil bypassed back to the pump inlet is that much that will NOT be withdrawn from the oil pan.

Never check an oil level with the engine running. What does that do? There is oil being slung and splashed all over the place all the time.

 

Maybe I do lack that understanding, but I did read about the pick up tube sucking air from engine builder magazine. I talked to a rather prominent engine builder in Talladega this week and he thinks the same and even recommended I ask my builder about what pump he used. That was before I told him the original builder had passed away.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/10/oil-pumps/

I just realized that I have the dang build sheet for my engine. It is a Melling M-22F oil pump, which is a standard volume and pressure pump.

 

I tried to load a video, but it was too big. With exactly 5qts fresh Vavoline VR 10W-30 and new filter, it held at 38psi for about 29sec and then it starting dropping to 16psi over 12sec. After 50 total sec it was holding steady at 12psi.

I turned off the ignition and let it sit for about a minute. Started it back up and the same happened. Noisy lifter has returned.

This is exactly I where I started off this week. I anticipate that if I add another 1/2 qt, that it will hold steady around 40psi as it did yesterday.

 

Your situation will be a challenge to the forum experts.
It looks reasonable for the first 1/2 minute. Then something happens which is irregular.

Did the originality & accuracy of the dip stick, tube, & pan confirm with the new oil?

Were any of these symptoms existing before the engine rebuild?

I'm wondering if the noisy lifter is related to the pressure problem or if it's a separate issue. Does the oil supply to the rocker on the noisy one seem the same as the rest?

 

You should not expect, and do not need, 40 psi at idle.

The OP is a constant volume pump.
The faster it spins, the more it pumps.
it is geared directly to the engine crankshaft thru the camshaft. Therefore the speed of the OP varies linearly with the speed of the crank. Thus also the output of the OP.

The oil flow THRU THE ENGINE oil system is not so speed dependent. The clearances do not vary with speed. Hotter, thinner oil can be forced thru the passages easier and faster than colder thicker oil.

Therefore, at idle with a cold engine, one might expect that the little oil pumped is enough that trying to squeeze that cold thick oil thru the engine results in the OP relief valve opening at the 40 psi it was set for.

After a few minutes, when the oil is hotter and thinner, more if it can flow thru the engine, to the point where the idle speed oil pump output now is not enough to open the 40 psi bypass valve. Because more of the flow is going thru the engine.

As soon as the engine speeds up above idle, the increased oil flow from the pump should again be enough to over-supply the engine's needs, and the relief valve will again maintain the 40 [or whatever] psi.

At idle, with no load, little oil pressure is required. The factory problem-indicating sensor was set to illuminate the dash light at around 7psi at the front left corner of the engine. Seven.

Lifters usually tick from crud inside, or worn rockers/ pedestals. I have seen new cams with the lobes wiped off too. It's easy to pull the ticking rockers and see how the wear is, and verify that they have the proper 1/2 to 1.5 turns of the pedestal screw from clearance taken up to seating of the pedestal screw. [Lifter preload].

 

I'm inclined to agree.

 

Yes, 5qts and after running to fill the filter, the oil is right on the full mark.

I did pull the valve covers and there is a lot of oil on top of the heads. I had by buddy in Talladega come over and he seems to think too much is pushing through. Oil shot about 15 feet across my garage. Granted this is an Olds engine, not a Chevy as he is used to.

With that said, according to the build sheet the lifters are Packard VL59. I recall reading somewhere that these are Chinese and pretty much junk. Anyone else agree?

 

This is irregular for an Olds engine. The flow is usually more like a trickle. Recheck the lifters. They control the flow.
If there is a LOT of oil on top of the heads the pump could be sucking air.

 

So, what do I need to look for on the lifters?

 

If they are shooting oil 15 feet they are not restricting the flow as the original lifters did. If the replacement lifters are made like the originals, the flow is restricted by the oil metering valve inside the lifter. It's a disc below the push rod seat. It appears that this is not doing the same job that original lifters did. You can inspect it by removing the retaining clip on the lifter.

 

"Perhaps the oil pump pickup is too far away from the bottom of the oil pan, so it is not picking up the oil as it is supposed to?"
=====

I have heard tell where the pan bottom is TOO CLOSE to the OP pickup, and at higher RPM's this restricts the intake unfavorably.

Heads' oil return holes on each end verified clear?

Take a scrap rocker cover and put a hole in it so you can see what is going on in there while she's running.

 

I don't have enough patience to re-read this entire thread, but have you tried removing your send unit and screwing in a mechanical oil pressure gauge? I have had a bad send unit behave like you described. Confirm yours is good by not only getting a second opinion but by using a mechanical one, too.

 

Yes, I have been using an external mechanical gauge. I have the Rally Pack, so I used the mechanical to get me a numerical reading.

 

Guys, I contacted Egge in regards to lifters. They use to purchase their VL59 lifters from Packard. At that time they had nothing but trouble. The mfg was actually leaving the metering disks out of the lifters...not sure if mistake or cost down due to being made in China. Anyway, the tech told me what that would do is put too much oil on top of the heads and emptying out the oil pan. This could very well be the problem that I am seeing.

If too much oil on top of my heads, would that be too much for the valve seals to handle? If so, then I would see some oil on top of my cylinders?

My next step is to tear the top down and check my lifters out. Not sure when I will be able to do that, but will update as I complete each step.

With all this said, it is probably time to move this part of the thread to a whole new thread considering I hijacked the 777's original intention on oil dip stick. Does anyone know how to do that or should I just start over?

-Jeff

 

This issue came up in this thread also, look at post 28:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...h-rebuild.html

 

Omitting the disks would likely cause your observed symptoms. Valve seal capabilities, no matter which style you have, should not be a concern. If you are pumping enough oil to the top of the heads to cause the pump's pickup to suck air that is the real problem. If you are using the original style stem seals it is likely that there will be additional oil on the stems and below, especially the intakes. Plan on replacing the lifters or at the least providing the metering disks for the ones you have. If you want to confirm the lubricant flow rate of the lifters before assembly this can be done individually outside of the engine after you assemble a test stand.