68Tom

Any one see this? Pretty nice. Interesting color/stripe combo.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Oldsm...item33565d4ad1

Diego

Striping is not correct.

joe_padavano

Where to start?

I can't tell from the pictures what color the W-36 stripes are supposed to be. The only available stripe colors in 1968 were black, white, gold poly, orange, red, and buckskin. I guess they are supposed to be gold?

The 1968 cars did not use the W-30 decal on the front fenders. There was no "genuine hardwood" steering wheel available from the factory - it was plastic. Disk brakes were not available on the W-30 that year, PARTICULARLY with a drum brake master cylinder!

Of course, this is a fully optioned car. Again, when have you ever seen a body-off resto that wasn't. How many of the options were added during the resto?

I will say that the red inner fenders appear to be originals, not repros. On the other hand, it is not the original engine. Once again, without documentation, one has to question if the car is real or fabricated.

Diego

Joe, do you mean power disc brakes were not available?

joe_padavano

No, I meant what I said. DISC brakes of any flavor were not available on the 1968 W-cars. Manual drums were the only option. Scary? Yup!

Diego

Joe, I just looked at my information and it shows that non-power discs were available. However, I also have a bulletin dated 9-19-67 that says option JL6 has been cancelled for all A-bodies. Whether it was reinstated is a different story, as I don't seem to have any docs that suggest such a thing.

So, perhaps, it's more accurate to suggest that non-power discs were not available AT ALL on all 4-4-2s?

joe_padavano

I'm afraid you've gone off in the weeds here. My whole point was to state that the ad claims that the car has disc brakes (despite the drum brake M/C in the picture). The 1968 W-30 was ONLY available with manual drum brakes. I was not intending to make a statement that covered any other type of car EXCEPT the 1968 W-30. Again, my original statement is correct.

Diego

Well, I think when it comes to 1968 W-30s, don't you think there's a few options that were not available due to the cam? I inferred that the discs not being available was an incompatibility issue with the W-30 package when the truth may be that no manual discs were available for any F85 regardless of engine - see my point?

mugzilla

ram air , 12 bolt, ...

joe_padavano

Huh?

mugzilla

Let's start with the terminology in the add ...

rolleyes for the seller ...

joe_padavano

Ahhh. Got it.

Diego

I emailed him last night. Almost 24 hours and no reply . . .

wmachine

I find the sidetrack through the weeds to be interesting. I would speculate, given the 9/19/67 date of the discontinuation, that the power disc brakes never made it to production, and the bulletin simply was officially putting it to bed. This was Oldsmobile's first attempt at non-power disc brakes and I would guess they ran into problems they couldn't resolve at the time.

mugzilla

probably a dual cyl like pontiacs 68 disc which lasted one year to be replaced by a single cyl ...

wmachine

Yes, the '67-'68 Olds disc brakes used the dual cylinder, and went to the single piston in '69.
But that wouldn't itself be the problem as they continued to offer the *power* disc brakes. What was cut off was the *manual* disc brakes.

joe_padavano

I remember reading someplace (and unfortunately I don't remember where) that Olds engineers did not believe that there would be sufficient braking force in the disc brakes without the power booster. Keep in mind that drum brakes are self-energizing, discs are not. Since the W-cars didn't provide enough vacuum for power brakes, manual drums were the only option.

I wonder what changed their minds. My 70 W-30 has manual disc brakes and I have no problems stopping the car. I wonder if this change is related to the switch from the four piston calipers to the single piston sliding calipers. (Wasn't there some documentation that showed the manual disc brakes available on the 1969 W-cars?)

One possible theory (and it's only a theory) is that the switch to the sliding calipers reduced the fluid requirement for the front brakes, which enabled the use of a manual master cylinder.

Let me explain a little further. First, to increase brake hydraulic pressure without increasing required foot pressure, you reduce the diameter of the master cylinder piston. Unfortunately, with a smaller diameter piston, you need to travel further to displace the same amount of fluid. The four piston calipers had two design features that require a larger amount of fluid than the single piston calipers. First, the four pistons have more surface area than the single piston. This is good for braking force but it means that more fluid is required and thus more pedal travel on the master cylinder. Second, the sliding caliper follows any warpage in the rotor, but the fixed four piston calipers do not. Any rotor runout pushes the pads away from the rotor, which in turn push the pistons back into the caliper. That means that additional brake fluid volume is required to make up this "knock-back". It's possible that the manual version of the master cylinder, with it's smaller bore, just couldn't provide enough fluid under all conditions.

junior supercar

from what I understand, manual disc for the 67/68 dual piston setup couldn't happen because enough force couldn't be applied to sufficiently and safely use the setup. Pretty much what you are saying Joe.

Now for 69, at least for the W-31s, I have yet to locate a documented manual disc brake car. There was one built since it was in a magazine road test back in the day (don't have the issue off hand now), but as far as I've been able to determine all 69 W-31s are manual drums.

Diego

Chris, do you think it's possible that the magazine listed the option but it was not correct? I can think of a road test where they listed gears that were not available from the factory.

joe_padavano

Magazine road test cars were often one-offs or pre-production cars.

Diego

But, for example, a Ram Air IV GTO should not have 3.55 gears. The stats were either written wrong, the car was instead a RAIII, or the GTO was a turkey. Considering Pontiac was pretty tight with their press fleet, I seriously doubt the latter.

junior supercar

March 1969 Car Life is the mag with the 69 W-31 road test. Basically what the article says is while this tester has the manual discs, the engineers weren't sure if it would make it into production.

agtw31

this guy has been trying to sell this car on ebay for at least 6 or 7 years,unless this is the latest sucker.

mtwalet

My brother has been in touch with the current seller. The seller is not the owner.

This car was sold at Barrett-Jackson's 35 Anniversary at Scottsdale in 2006. Before that it was sold at Barrett-Jackson's Palm Beach auction in 2005. There is absolutely NO documentation to verify this as a W30 car. Although that doesn't rule out that it isn't. The seller can't really prove it is, and no one can say for sure that it isn't. It may be a dealer installed W30 option. I don't know if the car underwent a full restoration or not. It doesn't appear so. If the car was repainted and a frame-on was done, it's possible the build sheet is still in tact within the car(??)

So if you sit back and think about it, at best what would a nice 442 4-speed convertible with all those nice options be worth? Not cheap I am sure.

I just think if the seller cannot prove it is a W30 car, it should not be advertised as a W30 car.....regardless of what equipment and W30 'stuff' may be on the car. I'm surprised Barrett-Jackson would allow an undocumented car to cross the block. Reputation you know.

My brother and I may possibly go look at this car since he has been looking for a nice 68 442 4-speed convertible for quite sometime and the hunt goes on.

Diego

I am not so concerned with the lack of documentation and the W-30 claims being made. I'm more concerned with the claims about how it's completely stock and perfect when others have pointed out there's a lot of glaring errors.

Add to this an unresponsive owner (eBay) and it makes me think he's looking for someone to take advantage of.

joe_padavano

HAHAHAHAHA

That's funny!

Diego

If they are not liable, they won't care.

Of course, if they cared regardless of liability, it would help their reputation in spades . . . but they're making money hand over fist, so why change?

4fortwo

And who documented BJ ever sold the car?

mongotz

1968 W 30 disk brakes were manual because engin did not creat enough vacumm

joe_padavano

1968 W-30 disk brakes were NONEXISTENT since only manual drum brakes were offered that year.

dsa2207

Joe is correct, period. Same goes for 1969, period.

joe_padavano

Actually, there are documented 1969 W-30s with manual disc brakes. Apparently this was a mid-year addition.

dsa2207

I've never seen one.

junior supercar

I've seen a few. fwiw