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I have a 1962 cutlass I have been restoring. I had the original transmission rebuilt and I have the motor rebuilt. The transmission seems to be the real weak link in this drive train.
Someone recently suggested putting a transmission in there from an 04 Land Rover. I’d like to know if anyone else has done this and what the other alternatives would be to put a more modern transmission in here
The 215 has a unique bellhousing bolt pattern. The only bolt-in transmissions are the ones used in the 61-63 F85 and Buick Skylark. The Buick trans is not the same as the Olds trans (two speed Dynaflow vs three speed Rotohydramatic 5) but they will bolt up.
GM sold the rights to the 215 to Rover, who built it up until the early 2000s. I'm not sure if 2004 was the last year or not, but the Rover trans will be a much larger 4WD version. Yeah, it will bolt to the engine, but it won't fit in the car without major work. Other Rover/Triumph transmissions also bolt up, such as those used in the Rover 3500 and the TR8. You'll likely not find them readily available.
The real problem you have is that the RH5 is a very small automatic and the tunnel in the Y-body cars is equally small. The only modern GM trans that comes close to fitting is the TH200. D&D sells adapter plates. People have installed the TH350 or 200-4R, but you'll need to modify the floor pan to get it to fit. Of course any trans change will require a new trans mount and new driveshaft at a minimum. There is no easy bolt-in swap.
This assumes you want an automatic. The T5 is a nice choice if you want a manual trans. D&D sells repro bellhousings.
...You'll likely not find them readily available...
Here's a six-speed ZF automatic offered as a rebuild. I'm sure, there are other sources who offer them at more reasonable prices. If they're not fussy as to what they get back as a core, that's all the more money to be saved:
I have a 1962 cutlass I have been restoring...
...I’d like to know if anyone else has done this and what the other alternatives would be to put a more modern transmission in here...
So much for restoring it. In this case, you'd be ending up with a Resto-Mod, if that's fine with you. In other words, once you start bumping out the floor board, there's no way back, unless you replace the hump. The only way to avoid that would be to get something that fits, like the TH200 Joe has previously mentioned. The ZF pictured looks like the tail end might need tunnel clearance
Last edited by Killian_Mörder; June 5th, 2020 at 10:31 PM.
The ZF pictured looks like the tail end might need tunnel clearance
It needs more than tunnel clearance. The back end of that trans is designed to bolt to a 4WD transfer case. What, exactly, are you planning to use instead? Machine a custom tailhousing out of billet? And what ECU do you plan to use to control that trans?
It needs more than tunnel clearance. The back end of that trans is designed to bolt to a 4WD transfer case. What, exactly, are you planning to use instead? Machine a custom tailhousing out of billet? And what ECU do you plan to use to control that trans?
The following ZF 6-speed has the tail piece designed for rear-wheel drive bolted onto it:
The following ZF 6-speed has the tail piece designed for rear-wheel drive bolted onto it:
I know nothing about ZF transmissions, but it sure looks like the output shaft has to be changed to use that 2WD tailhousing. If it's at all like the GM automatics, the output shaft is the last thing that comes out of the case during teardown and the first thing that goes in when rebuilding, so that's a complete trans disassembly and reassembly to change that. Of course, you also need to source those parts; which likely means buying a 2WD version in addition to the Rover version and mixing-and-matching parts. When you're done, you've still got a trans that's twice the size of the original, so drag out the plasma cutter. Can this be done? Sure. Is it economical? Do the math.
If there's no way of bi-passing the ECU, one could always shift it semi-automatically
Again, unlikely. Most modern automatics use computer-controlled solenoid valves to shift. On the 4L80E, you can power the solenoid valves independently and shift with pushbuttons, which requires building or buying a control box. Of course, that defeats the whole point of having an automatic...
And keep in mind that these new transmissions use an electronic shifter, not a mechanical one, so there's THAT mod and expense.
Since when is loads of fun economical? The reward gets paid in the end product's gratification.
I also know little about ZFs, except that they aren't shy about limitting their production only to as few design changes as possible
Since when is loads of fun economical? The reward gets paid in the end product's gratification.
I also know little about ZFs, except that they aren't shy about limitting their production only to as few design changes as possible
Well you all make fantastic points and share your knowledge and experience freely. That’s why I come to you with questions like these.
my big takeaways are ....
there really is no modern “bolt and go” solution
all the solutions require major modifications
since I have already spent $3000 on rebuilding the original trans... best to just deal with it as it is and as it was.
thanks again for all of your feedback.
in the end, it is a slight resto mod since I have added fuel injection and I am doing the disk brake conversion. One year ago
Good looking Cutlass! It's come a long way since we first saw it on the trailer. If you already spent the $3000 to get the RH5 rebuilt, what's it doing wrong? Isn't there some sort of warranty?
I'm not sure what that has to do with the 62 F85 that is the topic of this thread, but yeah. The black four speed 1965 Starfire at Nationals in 2016 was absolutely stunning. Manual trans full size cars are extremely cool.
Who built your transmission? That is expensive. I think my transmission guy charged me around $850 for a complete rebuild. That price may be because I bring him lots of business and send many people to him. I may have gotten a deal but at the same time, I wouldn't think it should cost $3000. Do you know if they updated the governor to the cast iron replacement?
I never did get in contact with the place you got that from. I wonder if they still have the Jetfire? I would love to talk to the guy.
...If it's at all like the GM automatics, the output shaft is the last thing that comes out of the case during teardown and the first thing that goes in when rebuilding...
That would likely also be ZF's case, if they were using GM patents. Otherwise, I really doubt that ZF would bother casting a separate tail section, if it wasn't completely separable from the rest of the transmission
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
...you also need to source those parts; which likely means buying a 2WD version in addition to the Rover version and mixing-and-matching parts...
Or one could visit a junkyard and simply harvest only the tail section. Ebay might also have what's needed
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
...Is it economical? Do the math...
Since when are hobbies economical? If they had to be, as a rule, what would be fun about counting pennies? In that case, we could just retreat back into the house and watch television
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
...these new transmissions use an electronic shifter, not a mechanical one, so there's THAT mod and expense.
The 6-speed ZF isn't that new. If I'm not mistaken, it was discontinued in 2014. Unfortunately, the modern 8-speeds are even less servicable by laymen.
Here, the removal of a mechanically-shifted unit:
Here, we have an older 4-speed. The drive flange is removable, allowing the complete removal of the tail section. There should be no reason as to why the 6-speed shouldn't get serviced likewise:
...Most modern automatics use computer-controlled solenoid valves to shift...
Originally Posted by djboz
...I have added fuel injection...
If both engine and injection originated from a Rover, most of the adapting is solved.
Here in the following video, the solenoid shift mechanism in the valve body is shown, if one were to convert it over to something even more modern. This was evidently filmed during a transmission flush. In a way, it's nice to not have a mechanical linkage:
That would likely also be ZF's case, if they were using GM patents. Otherwise, I really doubt that ZF would bother casting a separate tail section, if it wasn't completely separable from the rest of the transmission
The issue isn't the tailhousing, it's the OUTPUT SHAFT, which is essentially the main shaft in most automatic transmissions. For example, the TH400 has three different tail housings and FOUR different output shafts, one for each tail housing length and one for 4WD configurations. In each case, complete disassembly of the trans is required to change the output shaft.
Why does the output shaft have to get replaced? With what, then? As shown in the clip, it's splined so that you could attach what's needed to connect to a driveshaft. In which case, the flange connected to a rubber grommet would be the easiest to use. I just found some complete history on the 6-speed. I'll return later this evening with a translation: https://www.cbcity.de/automatikgetriebeentwicklung
Originally Posted by djboz
...there really is no modern “bolt and go” solution...
The only thing close to one would be to deal with it as if were a factory update GM would have done, if they have had the technology back then. In which case, a fuel-injected Rover version of the original engine bolted onto a modern automatic used with that particular engine (The ZF 6-speed comes to mind. There might even have been as few as four speed ZFs used, for all I know. I'll look it up, later this evening). This will facilitate connecting the electronics from any computer used with that particular transmission with both that and the engine. A four-speed ZF version would likely not be connected with a computer, because it was initially put into production at the turn of the 60s to 70s decade.
What will be required, in this case would be to either modify of create your own transmission mounting, adapt the shift linkage as well as any kickdown connection modify your floorpan if and when necessary and then to connect the tailshaft to your driveshaft.
What you'll end up with is still a sizable amount of work. But, if you don't dig a well, you shouldn't be expecting water. When it's done, it'll be rewarding to drive an updated classic which runs and drives like a modern car and it'll be fun to know that you'll have the only one of its kind
Last edited by Killian_Mörder; June 10th, 2020 at 03:19 AM.
While I have zero familiarity with the ZF, on other transmissions the output shaft LENGTH and frequently spline count differ depending on the tailhousing used and 2WD vs 4WD applications. If the 2WD tailhousing is a different length, the output shaft needs to change to match. For the TH400, these are the output shafts:
...In this article, I do not want to go into the general structure of automatic transmissions from series-connected planetary gear sets and the advantage that the torque applied is distributed over several tooth contacts between the ring gear, planetary gears and the sun gear, but nevertheless show one or the other gear shift patterns...
...There seems to be an intensive development cooperation between ZF and BMW, as the latest ZF developments are mostly placed in BMW models for the first time. An example of this is the “first 6-speed automatic transmission in the world” advertised by BMW and ZF, called 6HP, which premiered on the world market in 2001 with the then new BMW 7 Series, the internal BMW type designation E65...
None of this has any relavence to what the thread author is asking, except to prove that a conversion involving one of these transmissions should assure that these units are more than enough robust for handling even a highly tuned Rover version of the original Oldsmobile 215.
As a reminder, this thread isn't about what's easy or feasable. Rather, it's about alternatives to what he's presently running
As a reminder, this thread isn't about what's easy or feasable. Rather, it's about alternatives to what he's presently running
Call me crazy, but I'm betting the OP's real question was about a PRACTICAL alternative...
I mean, for an unlimited amount of money, you could custom machine your own billet transmission case, or better yet, 3D print it. That would be an "alternative" also.
The amount OP already has invested has already gone in the unlimited direction. I'll browse my local Ebay, in order to see what the equivalent of three grand can whip up for getting a Rover drivetrain.
"Practical" isn't a definition equatable with everyone. It varies according to personal ability. There are persons who get up everyday and go to work doing nothing other than what's been discussed here.
I did a little browsing. Surprisingly, there are more turbo-diesel 8s available than gasoline-powered. This is supposedly one of them:
Turbo-diesels have an enourmous amount of torque and will pin you onto your seat no weaker than in a muscle car. Trouble is, this might be a completely different engine than the aluminum-blocked Olds. You would also need to change the front springs over to those of a V-8 Tempest, at least.
Here's a 3 1/2 liter injected gasoline 8. He wants 1600€ ($1800 according to current exchange rates, maybe?) negotiable for it, with all attached accessories (all I see is a Lucas inventor of darkness alternator) claiming that it has low milage. If he wasn't pulling it out of a Morgan, I suppose he wouldn't be able to ask such a rediculous price for it. This isn't rediculously far from me, though:
Here's an older Rover with an automatic. I have no idea, as to which, since no specifics are mentioned as to model and date. My first guess would be Borg-Warner. Looks like I'll have to Wiki it up. Carbureted engines are much cheaper, if the seller won't separate both units. The following hasn't specified separation or not. He's selling strictly on a make an offer basis:
I have a 1962 cutlass I have been restoring. I had the original transmission rebuilt and I have the motor rebuilt. The transmission seems to be the real weak link in this drive train .
thoughts?
Why do you say it is a weak link ?
Because of all the bad things you hear about " slim jim's " ?
Slim jim's in the big cars were problematic , because the cars weighed over 4000 pounds .
Slim jim's in the cutlass were much more reliable because the cars only weighed 2700 pounds or so .
Also , did the person who rebuilt the trans also set up the throttle linkage in the car ?
I know a guy who specializes in slim Jim transmissions . He will not rebuild one without the car being at his shop , so he can adjust the throttle linkage properly .
He will not rebuild a trans that is shipped to him .
Of course, the trans in the F85 is a RotoHydro 5, not the "Slim Jim" RotoHydro 10, and yes, it is not one of GM's better automatics. Proper adjustment of the throttle rod requires a gauge tool that is not readily available, and the one for the F85 is different than the one for the full size cars. On my 62 I swapped to an E-brock carb, so I had to fabricate my own accelerator and throttle rod linkages. Since I don't have the gauge tool, I adjusted my TV rod through trial and error. It's still not perfect, but it's good enough. The problem now is that after I've been driving it for 10 years, the trans is starting to act up and rather than rebuild it, I've got a T5.
I imagine that the T-5 conversion is pretty much the same as the T-10 conversion? I imagine you need a custom driveshaft?
Yes, but if you get the factory style T10 it's easier. The T5 I'm using is one from an early 90s Camaro V6 with the factory hydraulic throwout bearing, so I need to locate a clutch master cylinder somewhere - you can't just bolt it to the firewall in front of the clutch pedal due to the location of the wheel well. Then there's the issue that the later GM T5s used the Ford case and bolt pattern, so I need an adapter plate. And of course the crossmember moves in addition to needing a custom driveshaft (well, at least the front section). And I have to swap tailhousings for one with a speedo drive feature. I knew all of this when I selected that trans.
Here's a 6-speed automatic from a V-8 Land Rover. Clicking on their image enables image enlargement. What I see is a mechanical linkage and a socket for the board computer: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVE...75.c100623.m-1
Here's a Borg-Warner, if anyone would want one of those. That wouldn't be much of an upgrade. But, at least one wouldn't have to deal woth the pecularities of the original transmission and since the B - W. was built longer and much more plentiful, spare parts should be much less problematic to obtain.
My dad had one of those hooked up to his '72 Ambassador 360. That slushbox couldn't do a burnout, despite the engine being big enough.
My sister had one in her Toyota Mark II, built under license by Aisin, who at that time, was still Aisin/Warner. She got the wagon cheap, because of slippage of which was caused by an internal cracked casting around the governor. After I replaced the entire transmission, it held out until she sold it. Unlike American castings, I'm almost sure that the Japanese one wasn't separable, but rather a single casting like a typical Torqueflite.
The main advantage of the B.-W. design should be the interchangability of the main unit with those of other brand applications such as those used by AMC. I wrote "should", because it would take only common sense for setting up production to where a main unit for all would involve only bellhousings getting cast separate:
The following vehicle was equipped with it and was exported to the U.S.. If you get lucky, you might be able to find one in a wrecking yard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_SD1
June 5th, 2020, 01:51 PM
