Macadoo

Seems like a simple way to check for proper geometry but will it work with hydraulic lifters? The article just says they used solid lifters.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...ngth-pushrods/

oldcutlass

Yes, same procedure.

Macadoo

Then maybe I'll give it a try this weekend. I'm still not convinced I have the proper amount of preload. Thanks Eric.

coppercutlass

Mac Preload is checked at the lifter with the stock bridges. If you have adjustable valve train you could put a dial indicator on the rocker directly over the push rods to measure the amount you have compressed the lifter cup. Now with pumped up lifters this will be a bit hard as they do not like to compress. You will have to bleed them off as much as possible.

pogo69

I wouldnt waste my money on that... like copper said if your valve rockers are adjustable just take out all the slack then give a 1/2 turn or so too lose and you might mash a pushrod...if its stock rockers there isnt any adjustment except to just tighten them down

oldcutlass

Mac, are they tapping? I don't think you need that tool for your engine.

rjohnson442

All you need is a marker and go from there. On a stock valve train if its off we're talking very little distance unless somethings really wrong. Depending on the line you'll know what rods to order +/- from stock ones if at all. Awesome tool to have on newly decked blocks or heads ect. with unknown rod length's though.

Macadoo

Thanks for all the info fellas. They don't tap...exactly. But I can here a slight ticking from both covers. And If I don't use the GM OES with my oil change I do have a lifter that wants to stick. My concern has always been that the push rods turn very easily with two fingers after torquing it all down.
When I did my refresh I replaced the springs, rockers, and cam. The rockers are stock and the springs match the cam that CutlassEFI ground for me. It's just been nagging at me. Last summer when I had it in for the AC charge the mechanic said it sounded noisy to him and that I needed to adjust my valve lash (which of course I can't do). I may try the marker trick (a sharpie maybe?) just to see what the geometry looks like.

coppercutlass

The tip pattern will not tell you if your preload is correct. Which that will bring noise about if its inccorrect but you are talking the diffrence between possible .020 and .040 possibly. That small of a diffrence won't translate to a better tip pattern or something you will see in the pattern change wise . In my experience I didn't start seeing any pattern changes until I made changes of .050 at .100 it was a noticebale change in pattern . When your lifter preload is .030 to .050 appx. What ever diffrences are happening to make noise will probably not translate to a change in the tip pattern . Assuming your lifters are somewhat loaded there won't be a .050 of a diffrence. Maybe .010 to .020, .020 to .040. Also considering you can only get readily available pushrods in .050 increments you might have to get a longer pushrods and shim the pedestal essentially adjusting your rockers . So lets assume you currently have .020 lifter preload. to get .050 lifter preload for example you will need a .030 longer pushrod . custom pushrods are not cheap so what you could do is order a .050 longer pushrod and shim the pedestals .020 .

Macadoo

Well I need to take a step back and figure out how to measure my preload and go from there. Something that doesn't make much sense is that I had the heads milled, not much but a little (machine shop closed a week later), and used stock shim gaskets which should make the pushrods a little too long. But maybe they ground the valve stems, maybe the base circle of my cam is a little smaller.
If it turns out that I don't have enough preload I may just get a set of adjustable pushrods. Not cheap I know but would give me some elbow room should the valve stems all be different lengths.

oldcutlass

You can check your preload on each rocker by following this guide. Checking preload requires that the valve to be checked is fully closed. I know that this is referencing a Chevy but the same applies to Olds because the firing order is the same. With the valve in the closed position your going to basically monitor the distance it takes from a loosened rocker perch to when it is tightened.

http://www.centuryperformance.com/va...procedure.html

Macadoo

Thanks for the link Eric. I also found this. It seems reasonable.

"Many domestic V-8's are fitted with non-adjustable rocker arms. To check preload on one of these engines, remove the valve covers and loosen all the rocker arms.

Begin with the number one cylinder at top dead center (TDC) and lay a straight edge across the valve cover gasket surface of the cylinder head and scribe a mark on the each pushrod, right where the straight edge intersects it. Use of machinist's dye will allow you to easily scribe visible marks on the pushrods.

Next, tighten both rocker arms to OEM torque specifications and then scribe a second mark on the pushrods. This mark should be slightly above the first mark. Use a dial caliper to measure the distance between the two scribe marks to determine the existing preload."

oldcutlass

That will work.

captjim

I think you may be over thinking this. Stock rockers have a wide contact area. Here is what I would do if I thought the "tick" was from a pushrod length issue. Warm the engine up, then remove the valve covers. Start at TDC and check to see if any of the rockers are loose enough to "rattle". Roate the engine 90 degrees and check again. Do this for 2 full revolutions. If none of them are loose, don't worry about it.

pogo69

machine shops are more likely to use a shim under the valve spring rather than grind each valve tip...if they even bother doing that for an oldsmobile. if the machine shop resurfaced the heads slightly and the valve seats were only cut once you should be within factory specs for valve length...unless there is something funky with the cam which is not factory specs??...anyway i wouldnt bother with adjustable pushrods they are not that easy to set accuratly but rather spend a little more and just get an inexpensive adjustable rocker arm assembly, then you will have no worries

rustyroger

But that won't make any difference to the valve stem height, just tighten the spring a bit.

Roger.

coppercutlass

You can't bring the valve up more by shimming the spring. That's a whole diffrent subject. Personally I would go adjustable valve train. Or buy slightly longer than needed pushrods and adjust by shimming the rockers. That would be assuming the stem heights are correct. Mac you can buy the tool from mondello to check the installed valve height. With adjustable rockers you wouldn't have to worry about the installed heights since the rocker will compensate for slight diffrences. It would become an issue with installed heights if you have a spring that needs a specific height . But if you had a valve job chances are you can just shim the spring if that was the issue. Even then you can get locks and retainers to change it by either bringing it up or down ( it ) being the spring installed height.

Macadoo

I can say for sure that none of the rockers "rattle". They do move a little but just a little.

I've looked into adjustable rockers but I can't say I've found anything I would call "inexpensive". Can anyone send me in the right direction?

coppercutlass

The comp cams roller tips are cheap and work good. You can buy the kit. Prw also has a roller tip rocker for the olds with poly locks. All you will need are guide plates and studs. Essentially it will run you about 250 all said and done roughly.

Macadoo

Thanks Copper, that's a lot cheaper than what I was looking at. Don't remember where but they were something like $389 for a kit.

oldcutlass

DIdn't you get your cam from Mark? Ask his opinion on the noise.

coppercutlass

https://www.prw-usa.com/product/prw-...el-rocker-arms


Studs are 75 bucks from comp . I just bought some and guide plates are about 30 bucks .

captjim

Then IMO you have sufficient pre-load and new rockers would be a waste of money with no performance gain.

pogo69

200-300 dllars its basically a ford windsor system. i know mondellos has them maybe ebay.... adj. rocker system is your best way as you can do each cylinder

coppercutlass

Jim although I agree there would not be a gain in performance he would be able to adjust his lifters properly instead of guess I say this if he has variables such as valve stem heights that vary etc etc. . Unless he really knows how much lifter preload he has its just a guess. He could only have .010 preload who knows. .010 preload would be enough to take the slack out of the pushrod as its compressing the spring in the lifter. Although I will agree mac is probably fine considering how many miles he has put on his engine since freshened up., having an adjustable valvetrain is nice and due to the fact its adjustable it makes up for variances that there could be in the valves. Who knows he could have noisy lifters. I have had some ( comp cams ) that where louder than snot when properly set up.

captjim

Not sure what the first part of the post means, but as to the second part, adjustable rockers are not "better" unless his valve stems are all over the place. Otherwise, a set of push rods is a LOT less.

Macadoo

I've been meaning to but I can't seem to find my order info. Maybe he can find it with just my name and addy. A smaller base circle has always been a question of mine.

@capt; It's not really a question of performance, more that I just want it done right, ya know? I'm driving it pretty hard...like a darn teenager

I found the comp cams 1441-kit on eBay for $240 but it doesn't picture the studs or guide plates so I sent the seller a question.

Macadoo

The entire setup from comp cams is about $275 and that's with everything, rockers, studs, nuts, rods, plates, etc.

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ode=OldsRocker

coppercutlass

The only thing with the comps is you don't get poly locks lol

pogo69

Mac thats a pretty decent kit it does not use a poly-lok but rather a crushed nut so its pretty easy to set up the studs are basic studs just tighten down with an 11/16th wrench and centering the guide plates takes a little patience

Macadoo

I'm not even sure what poly locks are. Do I need them? I mean, Copper, I'm not going to challenge your ride any time soon, lol.

Thanks for the info, pogo. I emailed Mark about my cam. That and measuring the preload are my first steps I think. I'll report back.

Macadoo

.030 to .060, correct?

coppercutlass

Mac the poly locs are designed to never come loose so to speak. The crushed nut will eventually come loose. It has on a few of my friends chebby's . The poly locks have a set screw on the top to positively lock the nut that is holding the rocker down. As for the pre load between .030 and .060 I belive is where you wanna be. I set mine to .040 . Mac im pushing the limits of these rockers as it is. I already broke one they can only handle so much spring pressure. You will be fine but im pushing it lol.

Macadoo

I never thought about that. Could my springs be stiff enough to micro-bend the rockers, hence accounting for the slop? I don't have the specs but they are stiffer than stock and match my cam.
The poly locks sound like a good idea.

coppercutlass

mac I was talking about pushing the limits or the roller tip rockers lol., but inadvertently I think you might have a reason there for possible slop or noise . I don't know what the stock rocker set up can handle. I have been running these roller tip rockers for a while now and the last time I set up the stock rockers they where on a very mild cam.

Macadoo

My cam is pretty mild, not even .50 lift. The rockers I bought new but stock, stamped. Again, I just need to take some measurements. You could be right; it may just be noisy lifters.

coppercutlass

I ran a .456 lift cam with the stock stuff just fine . That engine still runs to this day and is very quiet although the rockers do make a little noise if I use regular 10 w 30. you mentioned you use the gm eos. next time try using shell rotella 15 w 40 and the lucas oil additive. tried running 10 w 30 with the additive I use and it made more noise.

olds 307 and 403

I have a set of Comp roller tip rocker arms on my current 350. They are OK, a bit noisy cold. They are a quality rocker but could see the nuts possibly loosening over time. I plan on upgrading to 1.72 ratio Scorpion true roller rocker arms, more lift and they have the poly locks. Scorpion makes 5/16" pedestal mount non adjustable roller rocker arms in stock 1.6 and 1.7 ratios for around the $300 mark.

Macadoo

I'm using 10W30 with the EOS. I tried 10W30 with the STP zink additive once, really this suff, and I had clacking all over the place. I'll try your suggestion next oil change. But since It's going to be months since I get to drive her again.......

Thanks for the info, olds. I wouldn't have known that about them being noisy when they're cold.

pogo69

the crush nut will be fine and not get loose unless it over adjusted many times and then the studs and nuts might need replacement