Sarum

Hi all, I have recently purchased a great restomodded 1965 Cutlass Sports Coupe and I would like to know what would be the best engine oil multigrade to use in the 330 V8 engine. Could be a Pandoras box I realize! Also, I would like to know the part number of the replacement oil filter from the likes of Fram or similar. I have also seen stainless steel cleanable/reusable oil filters advertised on a New Zealand website albeit for big money, over US$160.00 Any views on this sort of filter?

Mr Nick

What type of cam?

MDchanic

You want to use 10W30 or 10W40 in the cold weather and 10W40 or 20W50 in the warm weather, and you want to use a ZDDP additive, or an "off-road" oil with 1,200ppm of ZDDP or more.

Do not buy, use, or touch the empty boxes of Fram filters.
I, and many others, have taken them apart and been disgusted by the low quality of the innards.

The consensus on the best (and I agree, from what I've disassembled), is WIX or NAPA (which are relabeled WIX).
WIX is 51258, NAPA is 1258, if I recall.

- Eric

69ishHoliday

A racer friend of mind thirty years ago didn't like multi viscosity oil and always professed that straight thirty weight was the best choice if you lived in the midwest. I've learned from a few people that ZDDP is important so I've gravitated towards the Valvoline products that are reported to be high in ZDDP.
You can say he is wrong, but my Dad claims that oil itself doesn't go bad that it just breaks down becoming dirty. I really don't know how long oil is good to use if it is well filtered and what characteristics change in oil over time. - Steven

oldcutlass

I recommend a 10W30 or 10W40 all year round. Valvoline Racing oil for street use is one of the best. It's readily available at most parts stores here in the states. The Napa or Wix filters are great. I would not buy those high dollar oil filters.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

what about that Royal purple?

jaunty75

ZDDP is important. For an older engine, just put in a container of STP Oil Treatment, which contains the needed ZDDP, when you change the oil, and you'll be fine.

Your father is exactly right, although to say it "breaks down" isn't correct terminology. It specifically does NOT break down. It just gets dirty. But it can be cleaned, and that's why we can recycle used oil instead of just throwing it away.

oldcutlass

Here's a good read:


http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

wow, lots of reading

69ishHoliday

The "breaks down" came from me. He was exactly right.

lass4ken

I'm presently getting engine work done on my 64 with 330 V8. Asked mechanic (who professionally builds performance engines), he stated to use Valvoline R (racing oil) due to zinc content.

oldcutlass

Yes, but he tested a lot of oil. His findings are towards the bottom. I would read the whole thing, lots of info. He's a member of another site I frequent. His testing seems accurate enough.

69ishHoliday

If you skip to the conclusions at the end;
Thinner oil makes more horsepower.

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

Yes I looked at it all. Found the findings

oldcutlass

His main contention is thinner oil makes for less wear upon startup with a cold engine. I agree, but I'm not 100% convinced on the long term effects of extremely thin oil here in Texas with a performance engine. We all understand the HP gain.

69ishHoliday

Interesting, I think my wife's minivan calls for a 5w20 oil. It doesn't use any oil and has 150k on it. - Steven

69ishHoliday

I've also been told by an amsoil (synthetic oil) dealer that you're not supposed to use their oil in a new engine because rings don't seat.

oldcutlass

There are a lot of production engines that are designed for lighter weight oils.

tru-blue 442

This is what I use in my Oldsmobile. 30 wt. for
our Texas summers. I may go with the 20 50 for winter.

Sarum

I am not sure what type of cam is in the engine now as I bought the car with a fully rebuilt 330 V8. Actually the more I look the more I realisze that the previous US owner rebuilt the whole car as everything I look at is new.Unfortunately the previous U.S. is deceased which I think is the only reason that it was sold.
Sorry off subject. The cam profile is fairly warm but still has good power down low.At low engine speed there is no power brake assist due to a lack of vacuum available from the engine.

Sarum

That's great many thanks. I am in New Zealand and in Auckland (my city) the temperature range goes from roughly 50degrees (Fahrenheit) in Winter to about 85 degrees in Summer. Scary about the Fram filters, it was just the first big brand that came to mind. However I am pretty sure you can get WIX filters here so all good.
While checking out what ZDDP is I came across the following on Wikipedia
"Crankcase oils with reduced ZDDP have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car flat tappet camshafts and lifters" I think that the 330 came with a flat tappet type camshaft so this lends additional credence to your comments.

Sarum

I recently came across a YouTube video where a Chev 383 big block was put on a dyno and a number of changes made including lighter oil. From the results notes I made see below

16 Horsepower for free! A link to the site is below

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/1307_mopar_engines_power_vs_luxury/photo_05.html

rustyroger

What oil was recommended for the engine when it was new?, that might be a good starting point.
I have read a lot of posts about Fram filters, all of which seem to me subjective hearsay. I have read one peer reviewed controlled conditions blind test comparitive report (admittedly 20 years old now).
The report found that Fram were the best at removing harmful particulates (10 - 30 micron size) and best at maintaining filtering ability over time.
It seems they have a reputation for poor build quality, however I have never had one fail in 30+ years of using them. If you change your oil and filter on schedule I doubt you will have any issues whichever filter you use.


Roger.

Olds64

I use Rotella T 15W40 in my 71 98. You can buy it in quantity since it's often used in diesel engines. I've "heard" it has high zinc content and detergents that clean the engine. I don't know if this is true though. I like it because it is reasonably priced and every time I change the oil my 455 taks 7 quarts since I have the deep Milodon pan.

FWIW, I use Fram oil filters. I've heard they are poor filters to use but I've never had a problem with them.

MDchanic

1961:





1970:





I don't know about 20 years ago, but I've cut them apart this year, and they're crap inside.

Poorly constructed and with much less filter material than better filters, such as the WIX.

I would strongly recommend that you cut one open, then cut open a good filter, and you will no longer have to listen to "hearsay."

- Eric

455man

The diesel oils do have more ZDDP and are less expensive. They have less now than a few years ago but still seem to be higher than the average. The racing oils have more ZDDP than the diesel oil though.

jensenracing77

But racing oil was not made to be in an engine for 3000 miles.

oldcutlass

There are 2 types of VR oils, one that's strictly for racing and the other for the street.

This is good for 500 mile intervals.



This is good for the normal 3000 mile or 3 month interval

jensenracing77

Good lord that was long, but a good read. I was a little disappointed that it has nothing to do with the TBN rating. A low TBN rating is why racing oil is not good for street driven engines. The TBN rating is how well the oil is able to absorb moisture to prevent acid build up. Racing oil has a much less TBN rating because the engine is ran hard enough to boil this moisture off. The racing oil will also be changed much more often so what little it will accumulate will be flushed out.

jensenracing77

lol, Marketing hard at work. If it's not street legal it MUST be good.

A little off topic but just thought it was funny putting it right on the front.

jag1886

I use Joe Gibbs in my older engines (10-30) they are excellant oils, they have plenty of ZDDP in them and are designed to stay in placed when vehicles are stored for extended periods also. As far as filters you can't get much better than a NAPA gold filter and they are relatively inexpensive.

harwooddan

Always used a name brand 10-40w oil, filter, and add one small bottle of a zinc additive

Olds64

Is the TBN rating printed on the oil container?

rustyroger

What will I learn about the filters ability to remove harmful particulates etc. just by looking at it?.
The amount of filter material isn't the whole story, or whoever stuffed the most filter material in their filters would be the best. The quality of the material is an obvious factor.
I have no doubt there are a lot of defective Fram filters out there, how many as a percentage of the whole production?. If they make millions of filters 1000 failures is a low failure rate.
I don't fly a flag for Fram or work for them, but watching a youtube video of someone cutting open some filters doesn't amount to evidence for me.
A controlled conditions test of a filters ability to do its job properly over time and subject to extreme operating conditions comparing it with others is something I will take notice of.


I'm not having a go at you, Eric. We have agreed on some subjects, disagreed on others, and possibly had our views changed on yet more.
Long may that continue!.


Roger.

MDchanic

Roger, I will admit that I can't tell you about actual filtering ability, but I will repeat my suggestion that you actually look inside of a few filters.

Watching YouTube videos and looking at pictures didn't really do it for me either, but when I actually saw the quality of the workmanship in person, I was really surprised.
I am certain that you can identify good workmanship in any product; if you couldn't, you wouldn't enjoy fixing cars.
I am not trying to sound like a pontificating authority here. I'm saying that if you actually look for yourself, you are very likely to say "Never mind the filter rates, that just looks too poorly constructed for me to trust."

I'm not trying to argue, because I don't think that we disagree. I agree that a test of filtering ability is the best thing to do, but I would note that oil filters are generally not advertised on the basis of comparing their inner construction with that of their competitors, that their inner construction requires some work to reveal, making it irrelevant to the vast majority of buyers, that their appearance inside the can is therefore probably not determined by marketing or aesthetics, but rather by engineering considerations, and finally, that Fram filters are often the cheapest in the store, after whatever sale is going on this week.
Taken together, I interpret this information to mean that WIX has little, if any, reason to make their filters look better-constructed inside, while Fram has an economic motivation to make theirs as cheaply as possible.

You may, of course, see this differently, and that's up to you, but I have presented my argument as I see it, and will just shut up now.

Thank you for listening.

- Eric

brown7373

It sounds like you have a basic stock engine that the manual has 10W30 at the top of the list. Even most "muscle cars" simply put the bigger engines from their bigger cars in the smaller car and presto...442, GTO, Grand Sport, SS396. Even those usually call for 10W30 at the top of their list.


My 72 Cutlass 350 has close to 250K miles (without rebuild) and maybe uses a half quart of oil every 3000 miles. I live in south Florida with many months of hot weather, and I use only 10W30.


Any article I ever read, say the vast majority of engine wear is at start up, where the lower number oil is essential to get to the bearings quickly. Start-up is harder on the engine that cruising all day down the interstate at 75 mph. Heavier oil does not get to the bearings as quickly and probably will result in more wear. Now, if you have a heavily modified engine, or operate at high loads or high rpms for extended periods of time, maybe this changes.


As far as zinc, I'm on the fence. Some experts I have talked to or read articles say it is necessary ALL the time, but others say only to break-in a new cam, and not necessary on an engine that already has been broken in. But it probably is cheap insurance because engine repairs / rebuilds are expensive and time consuming.

455man

With the zinc, they probably only worried about break in because the oils used to have higher levels of zinc in them. They have continued to reduce the amount of zinc in oils over the years which is why some say you need more zinc to equal what the engines were used to when they were designed. Cats and roller cams have reduced the need for the "polluting" zinc.

MDchanic

It's not that the zinc pollutes, it's just that it messes up catalytic converters.

- Eric

Koda

Lighter weight oils are used for modern engines with tighter tolerances and overhead cams. A pushrod older engine needs heavier oil. I like purolator filters myself, but mobil, k&n, and others are good, too.

The flat tappet cam needs the zinc additive. The racing oil has it, I believe, and additives do, too.

jensenracing77

I don't think I have ever seen this number posted on a label. I do know that racing oil is MUCH lower and not a good idea for street use. The other additives they use in racing oils require a lower TBN. I do not know if that is because they won't mix or if there is a counter effect or??? I am not a chemist but did do a real large amount of studying the subject in my off road racing days.