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OK, my vehicles run the gambit. I own 5, and each serves its own purpose. The Ram is my hauler and work horse, my Vette is my summer daily, the Town and Country is my family mover, and the Toronado is my project. Which leaves my winter/rainy day/fill in daily: a Chevy Bolt. Now, every time i see a story about an electric car on the news, or on facebook, or wherever, there are always guys who want to jump in, thump their chests, and roar how electric cars are failed technology, a governmental boondoggle, terrible technology, etc. Like somehow the idea of a car that runs on a battery is a direct threat to their manhood. Meanwhile, none of them have ever even SAT in one, let alone driven it. They have no idea what their capabilities, and yes, their limitations are. While I find it amusing, its also annoying to continually listen to this drivel. So what is it? Why are people so vehemently opposed to something a little different? Does parking next to an electric vehicle somehow make you feel less manly? Its very strange to me.
I'm not "threatened" by them so much as I am not as sold on them as the world thinks we should be.
My thoughts on electric cars. Some may be in error, but these are the impressions I have.
1. They are limited in range. And once the charge runs out, you have to charge them for 8 hours. No stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes to fill the tank, go to the restroom, and get something to drink. So they’re fine for in-town commutes, but they can’t function as the family cross-country vacation vehicle. The use of accessories only drains the batteries more quickly. If it's night and it's winter, and you want to use the heater and windshield wipers as well as the radio and headlights, power drains that much more quickly.
2. They’re not as “clean” as you would think. The electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere, and that’s still mostly fossil fuel-fired power plants. So the car itself may not emit pollutants, but pollutants are still emitted in the creation of the electricity that powers them.
3. Along the lines of #2, the construction of their batteries requires heavy metals that mostly come from China and that are damaging to the environment to mine.
4. How long do the batteries last before they must be changed out? I’m guessing that, just like the rechargeable batteries in portable computers, cell phones, and many other things, they can only endure so many rechargings before they must be replaced. How often (miles) does this occur? What is the cost to replace the batteries?
5. Disposal of the spent batteries is no environmental picnic, either. I’ve not heard that the metals in the batteries are recyclable, but maybe they are. But extracting them might not be cheap nor easy.
In short, electric vehicles are no panacea.
Last edited by jaunty75; November 18th, 2020 at 09:33 AM.
I'm not "threatened" by them so much as I am not as sold on them as the world thinks we should be.
My thoughts on electric cars. Some may be in error, but these are the impressions I have.
1. They are limited in range. And once the charge runs out, you have to charge them for 8 hours. No stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes to fill the tank, go to the restroom, and get something to drink. So they’re fine for in-town commutes, but they can’t function as the family cross-country vacation vehicle. The use of accessories only drains the batteries more quickly. If it's night and it's winter, and you want to use the heater and windshield wipers as well as the radio and headlights, power drains that much more quickly.
2. They’re not as “clean” as you would think. The electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere, and that’s still mostly fossil fuel-fired power plants. So the car itself may not emit pollutants, but pollutants are still emitted in the creation of the electricity that powers them.
3. Along the lines of #2, the construction of their batteries requires heavy metals that mostly come from China and that are damaging to the environment to mine.
4. How long do the batteries last before they must be changed out? I’m guessing that, just like the rechargeable batteries in portable computers, cell phones, and many other things, they can only endure so many rechargings before they must be replaced. How often (miles) does this occur? What is the cost to replace the batteries?
5. Disposal of the spent batteries is no environmental picnic, either. I’ve not heard that the metals in the batteries are recyclable, but maybe they are. But extracting them might not be cheap nor easy.
In short, electric vehicles are no panacea.
Well, sure, theres room for improvement. But I did a lot of checking before I committed. Just to answer your points:
1. Limited in range, yes. For mine, about 200 miles. No, it doesnt take 8 hours to charge them. Well, it CAN. But a stage 3 or speed charger takes about 40 minutes for an 80% charge. The problem is the chargers are not always readily available, so the infrastructure definitely needs some work.
2. Depends. With more wind/solar/geothermal/hydroelectrric plants, this becomes less of a concern. But for me, it wasnt environmental concerns, it was economics that led me to buy one.
3. At the moment, yes. though we actually have vast deposits of them here, its just cheaper to get them from china. For now.
4. About 250,000 miles, or 15 years. For my particular car, replacement is about 3k right now. So fairly comparable to an engine or transmission replacement. But, that doesnt account for all of the incidental cost savings like oil changes, belts, alternators, starters, etc. that you replace on a conventional engine during those times that an electric car doesnt have. mile for mile, they are actually incredibly cheap to own.
5. Yeah, thats a definite concern, though they SAY they are completely recyclable. We will have to see on that.
Really, I bought mine because it saves me money. I was spending about $80 a week on gas commuting at $2 a gallon roughly. Now I'm spending about $25-$30 in electricity instead. $50 a week in savings adds up pretty quick. And thats assuming gas prices stay low, if it spikes back up to $3-$4 a gallon, it will save a lot more. Not saying its all rainbows and unicorns, but it is a definite improvement, in my opinion.
I'm not "threatened" by them so much as I am not as sold on them as the world thinks we should be.
My thoughts on electric cars. Some may be in error, but these are the impressions I have.
1. They are limited in range. And once the charge runs out, you have to charge them for 8 hours. No stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes to fill the tank, go to the restroom, and get something to drink. So they’re fine for in-town commutes, but they can’t function as the family cross-country vacation vehicle. The use of accessories only drains the batteries more quickly. If it's night and it's winter, and you want to use the heater and windshield wipers as well as the radio and headlights, power drains that much more quickly.
2. They’re not as “clean” as you would think. The electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere, and that’s still mostly fossil fuel-fired power plants. So the car itself may not emit pollutants, but pollutants are still emitted in the creation of the electricity that powers them.
3. Along the lines of #2, the construction of their batteries requires heavy metals that mostly come from China and that are damaging to the environment to mine.
4. How long do the batteries last before they must be changed out? I’m guessing that, just like the rechargeable batteries in portable computers, cell phones, and many other things, they can only endure so many rechargings before they must be replaced. How often (miles) does this occur? What is the cost to replace the batteries?
5. Disposal of the spent batteries is no environmental picnic, either. I’ve not heard that the metals in the batteries are recyclable, but maybe they are. But extracting them might not be cheap nor easy.
In short, electric vehicles are no panacea.
1) how often are you driving more than 200 miles per day? The answer for nearly everyone is almost never. For those times you do need to, you can use a second car or rent. For those who need to often, again being an exceptionally rare case, don’t get an electric at this point in time.
2) Time and time again, electric cars have been shown to be cleaner than ICE powered cars, even when powered by coal power plants.
3) China has quite a bit of lithium, but isn’t the only source, nor the long term concern. Cobalt is. And that is almost exclusively found in central Africa. And it’s nasty stuff. So this is a fair point, but consider: demand drives innovation. No one looked for better batteries until better batteries were needed. There’s a ton of research going on in this field, including by our military.
4) a hell of a long time. Longer than most vehicles are kept on the road (300,000 - 500,000 miles).
5) the most common way of recycling batteries isn’t to recycle them, but to reuse them in applications where energy or power density isn’t as critical (power generation energy storage). But this is another area where we have a ways to go.
The real question is...why do you think this should be any different than any other technology in existence? Computers weren’t practical at their onset...now you have more computing power in your pocket than what was required to go to the moon. The first automobiles weren’t running 700 hp and lasting 100,000+ miles without issue...they were weak, under powered, inefficient, unreliable garbage. We’ve only been working on them for more than a century...
So rather than criticizing them allow the tech to develop and go about your own business. The people running electrics are saving us fuel and emissions to run our classic Oldsmobiles.
The U.S. electric vehicle market is exploding, up 81 percent last year over 2017. That's got the oil industry worried, and Big Oil is scheming to kneecap the EV boom.
Every day Big oil tells the public EV are bad. Slowing down EVs ishuge amount of money for oil companies per day! USA only is about 9.31 million barrels of gas a day. About 3.40 billion barrels gas per year. If I was them, I kill EV if I could or at least slow it down. In 10 years to 15 years. EV will edge out gasoline.
Aot of jaunty75 concerns are being addressed by Elon Musk and Tesla.
Well, sure, theres room for improvement. But I did a lot of checking before I committed. Just to answer your points:
1. Limited in range, yes. For mine, about 200 miles. No, it doesnt take 8 hours to charge them. Well, it CAN. But a stage 3 or speed charger takes about 40 minutes for an 80% charge. The problem is the chargers are not always readily available, so the infrastructure definitely needs some work.
2. Depends. With more wind/solar/geothermal/hydroelectrric plants, this becomes less of a concern. But for me, it wasnt environmental concerns, it was economics that led me to buy one.
3. At the moment, yes. though we actually have vast deposits of them here, its just cheaper to get them from china. For now.
4. About 250,000 miles, or 15 years. For my particular car, replacement is about 3k right now. So fairly comparable to an engine or transmission replacement. But, that doesnt account for all of the incidental cost savings like oil changes, belts, alternators, starters, etc. that you replace on a conventional engine during those times that an electric car doesnt have. mile for mile, they are actually incredibly cheap to own.
5. Yeah, thats a definite concern, though they SAY they are completely recyclable. We will have to see on that.
Interesting responses. Some replies to your replies.
1. 40 minutes is much less than 8 hours, but that's still a significant amount of sitting around every 200 miles if you want to drive from, say, Los Angeles to New York. Assume 3000 miles. If you have to recharge after every 200 miles, that's 15 recharges. At 40 minutes per, that's 600 minutes, or 10 hours of sitting around. By contrast, a decent gasoline engine car of similar size can probably get 400 miles to a fill-up, so that's 7.5 fill-ups. At 15 minutes per (counting restroom and getting a snack), that's about 2 hours of down time. I'm not saying that everyone will use their electric car for cross-country driving, but my wife and I take many driving trips, so this issue would matter to us. The concern you raise about finding charging stations is an issue as well. Around town, where you know where the charging places are, using an electric vehicle should be no problem. But venturing into unknown areas would seem to carry some risk. And if your car does die and leave you by the side of the road, it's not like you've run out of gas and you can call the AAA to bring you some. An electric car would have no choice but to be towed to a charging station. There's no charging by the side of the road equivalent to dumping in some gas from a 5-gallon can to get you moving again.
2. Everyone expects solar and wind to save the world, and California is counting on it to get them fully off of gasoline-powered vehicles by 2035. Good luck with all of that. There isn't enough electrical generation capacity in California now because they've prematurely shut down their fossil-fuel plants, and now Californians have to suffer through brownouts and periodic blackouts during periods of peak demand. And they have to buy some electricity from neighboring states, too, much of which is generated by fossil-fuel plants. So what have they saved, and at what cost to their residents? Solar, wind, etc. are not panaceas.
3. I had not heard that we have "vast" deposits of heavy metals in the U.S. There is an interesting article on the subject here:
4. That's an excellent point about the reduced routine maintenance costs. What routine engine maintenance DOES an electric vehicle require? Certainly non-engine things like brakes, tires, suspension, alignments, etc. type maintenance are still needed. I have to say that my modern-day Nissan Frontier and Mazda 6 really require very little engine maintenance beyond routine oil and air filter changes. Coolant changes are recommended now only every 100,000 miles or so, so that's not much of an expense. Spark plugs are recommended to be changed about every 60,000 to 75,000 miles, depending on manufacturer, so, again, that's not a terribly burdensome expense and it's certainly not like the old days, where you changed out the spark plugs and coolant and did a tune-up every 12,000 miles.
So rather than criticizing them allow the tech to develop and go about your own business.
Go suck an egg. I'm not "criticizing" anything. I have legitimate concerns, and I raised them based on the OP's question. If you don't like the fact that I have concerns, too bad.
Electric vehicles may one day dominate the landscape. I'm not against that. But their time has not yet come, and, as I've said, they will not be a panacea. Their advantages, just like the supposed advantages to solar and wind, are routinely oversold.
May new Baby! Kinda big, but oh well. Full Self-Driving. Mine is coming 2022 500+ miles. Quick charge station along the way. 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutesto 100%. This will improve by 2022.
At this point they have use a short-medium distance commuter vehicle, and likely as a secondary vehicle.
I can't imagine any of my family in Louisiana jumping into their electric vehicle to evacuate from the recent hurricanes. And then there wouldn't be any way to recharge one afterwards until the electricity was restored, which took weeks.
So a new technology that is still in its infancy, with a lot of progress still needed. Like an electric grid that is capable of supporting millions of vehicles all charging at 5:30 pm every weekday.
^^^THIS! The more electric cars, the more oil for the rest of us. I encourage it.
This is a joke, right? It's not like you can walk out your front door and pick up some oil off the ground. The more we move away from gasoline-powered vehicles, the less demand there will be for oil. The smaller the demand, the less that will be produced. Refining capacity will diminish. There will be far fewer "gas" stations. Gasoline will become increasingly more difficult to find, and it will cost increasingly more when you do find it.
At this point they have use a short-medium distance commuter vehicle, and likely as a secondary vehicle.
I can't imagine any of my family in Louisiana jumping into their electric vehicle to evacuate from the recent hurricanes. And then there wouldn't be any way to recharge one afterwards until the electricity was restored, which took weeks.
So a new technology that is still in its infancy, with a lot of progress still needed. Like an electric grid that is capable of supporting millions of vehicles all charging at 5:30 pm every weekday.
500 miles at 7 to 10 hours of driving should get out of harms way.
So rather than criticizing them allow the tech to develop and go about your own business.
Why should the American taxpayers subsidize this tech development, particularly subsidizing those businesses that aren't based in this country and whose products are not being built here?
I know that the US subsidizes farmers and many other American businesses and I don't think that's right either. All I ask is that we pay the market rate for these products. If they are cost effective, they will be successful.
1) how often are you driving more than 200 miles per day? The answer for nearly everyone is almost never. For those times you do need to, you can use a second car or rent. For those who need to often, again being an exceptionally rare case, don’t get an electric at this point in time.
I agree that taking long trips is not an every day thing. But it IS something, and people who live in rural areas and who might need to drive 50 miles one-way to the nearest grocery store or to get to the doctor will certainly notice the difference between an electric vehicle and a gasoline-powered one.
The "second car" argument for the use of electric vehicles is one I hear often, and it makes sense for those who can afford two cars. But if you can afford (or only want) one car, you want one that can do everything you might need, from taking you a mile down the road to the grocery store to seeing Aunt Jenny and the family 500 miles away at holiday time.
This is a joke, right? It's not like you can walk out your front door and pick up some oil off the ground. The more we move away from gasoline-powered vehicles, the less demand there will be for oil. The smaller the demand, the less that will be produced. Refining capacity will diminish. There will be far fewer "gas" stations. Gasoline will become increasingly more difficult to find, and it will cost increasingly more when you do find it.
Do not get me wrong! Love my cutlass! Love the sound my beast makes! There are too many Classic out there. Gasoline is not going anywhere soon.
Why should the American taxpayers subsidize this tech development, particularly subsidizing those businesses that aren't based in this country and whose products are not being built here?
I know that the US subsidizes farmers and many other American businesses and I don't think that's right either. All I ask is that we pay the market rate for these products. If they are cost effective, they will be successful.
US bailed out gas and oil companies for like 470 Billion dollars this year!
US bailed out gas and oil companies for like 470 Billion dollars this year!
Big deal. The U.S. government bailed out EVERYBODY this year, from airlines to hotels to oil companies to you and me with the "stimulus" checks. They appear to be about to do it again, too.
US bailed out gas and oil companies for like 470 Billion dollars this year!
And I acknowledged that it isn't right that they should do so.
Apparently you think two wrongs make a right. Next time try try telling the cop you were speeding while you're illegally switching lanes so you don't deserve the ticket. See how that works out for you.
The gas combustion engine didn't begin as a dragon slayer to the horse and is was not quickly embraced either. It evolved. So will alternative fuels for transportation. The front runner today is batteries and Tesla is the techno wizard(s) behind that. That is not to say that other means will not leap front it in the not to distant future. Especially considering how elevated our space travel is becoming. And Elon Musk is a major player in THAT happening.
Electric vehicles are changing for the better and will soon be common place. Just like gas combustion engines evolved. Following that, will be things like tires, bearings, A/C etc. One major improvement demands improvement and innovation in other components.
Go suck an egg. I'm not "criticizing" anything. I have legitimate concerns, and I raised them based on the OP's question. If you don't like the fact that I have concerns, too bad.
Electric vehicles may one day dominate the landscape. I'm not against that. But their time has not yet come, and, as I've said, they will not be a panacea. Their advantages, just like the supposed advantages to solar and wind, are routinely oversold.
...I addressed those concerns, but instead of acknowledging that you want to throw around insults?
I have driven electric cars, my brother in law worked for a company that made batteries for them. I want no part of them, I despise small cars. It wouldn’t get out of its own way, had a terrible ride, didn’t handle worth a crap, and you felt every bump in the road. Not to mention it’s incredibly small. I could sit in the driver seat, and put my palm flat against the passenger window. And, no back seat. This is almost identical to what my brother in law had
Even after some software modifications, top speed was something like 68 mph, and took FOREVER to get to top speed. His work required him to occasionally travel, I couldn’t imagine driving that during rush hour traffic. Not to mention a couple of times running the battery dead and getting it towed home.
When he needed a “real” truck he would borrow my Ram, I used his car to get to work. I was never so glad to have my truck back! Longest 3 days ever! I felt like I was driving this!!! The Think City car wasn’t much bigger!!
I have my Ram for long distance/family vacation. 600 plus miles to a tank, plenty of luggage room, and comfortable. My wife has a small jeep as her daily driver. I drive a beat up 02 neon to work. And of course, the Olds is my therapy.
We bought the neon 4 years ago for my oldest stepdaughter. When she got a better car, I “repossessed” the neon. It’s paid for, excellent on gas, cheap, reliable, etc. Ever vehicle I own serves a purpose, and I wouldn’t hesitate to drive any one of them anywhere on a moment’s notice.
I don’t understand the mentality some people have with older cars. I work with people who bitch about occasional car maintenance on their older car, for some reason they figure a née car payment every month is cheaper than occasional repair. The best car is one that’s paid for!!!
Until the charge time comes down to the same as a fuel stop, I want no part of electric.
And I acknowledged that it isn't right that they should do so.
Apparently you think two wrongs make a right. Next time try try telling the cop you were speeding while you're illegally switching lanes so you don't deserve the ticket. See how that works out for you.
Just trying to make a point. Never said two wrongs make it right.
I am totally against lobbyist who takes part in an organized to influence legislators. Senators and congresspeople should wear jackets like NASCAR drivers. So we all know who is paying them off!
Government money into technology sure payed off with NASA.
The gas combustion engine didn't begin as a dragon slayer to the horse and is was not quickly embraced either.
This is very true. At the beginning of the automobile age, internal combustion competed with both electric and steam-power, and for a while, it looked like steam would win out. But it didn't. Neither did electric, for reasons that are pretty much still true today. Electrics have limited range, they take time to charge, and the batteries are heavy and take up space. Steam engines take time to warm up and involve high temperatures and high pressures which made them somewhat dangerous for the average Joe to operate.
The beauty of internal combustion, and why it won out and why it continues to win out, comes from the convenience of portable, easily stored and transported, energy-dense liquid fuels resulting in readily and immediately available transportation and convenient, fast refueling. The problems that plagued electric cars have not changed in 120 years. Batteries are still heavy and take up space, they take time to charge, and the vehicles have limited range. We've been hearing about how electric will finally supplant internal combustion for decades, but it has yet to happen. We are making technological progress at the margins (somewhat faster charging, better storage capacity), but these have yet to be game-changers. This may one day happen, but I'm not holding my breath. The limitations of all-electric power are built in to the technology. There will be a niche for electric vehicles (taxis, short-range commuting), but I don't see them outright replacing internal combustion. Especially not as long as we have cheap, readily-available oil. and, with fracking and other new technologies, I think we'll have cheap, readily-available oil for decades to come.
Last edited by jaunty75; November 18th, 2020 at 12:39 PM.
This is very true. At the beginning of the automobile age, internal combustion competed with both electric and steam-power, and for a while, it looked like steam would win out. But it didn't. Neither did electric, for reasons that are pretty much still true today. Electrics have limited range, they take time to charge, and the batteries are heavy and take up space. Steam engines take time to warm up and involve high temperatures and high pressures which made them somewhat dangerous for the average Joe to operate.
The beauty of internal combustion, and why it won out and why it continues to win out, comes from the convenience of portable, easily stored and transported, energy-dense liquid fuels resulting in readily and immediately available transportation and convenient, fast refueling. The problems that plagued electric cars have not changed in 120 years. Batteries are still heavy and take up space, they take time to charge, and the vehicles have limited range. We've been hearing about how electric will finally supplant internal combustion for decades, but it has yet to happen. We are making technological progress at the margins (somewhat faster charging, better storage capacity), but these have yet to be game-changers. This may one day happen, but I'm not holding my breath. The limitations of all-electric power are built in to the technology. There will be a niche for electric vehicles (taxis, short-range commuting), but I don't see them outright replacing internal combustion. Especially not as long as we have cheap, readily-available oil. and, with fracking and other new technologies, I think we'll have cheap, readily-available oil for decades to come.
I agree with most of you say. EV are ten years or less from being game-changers.
Walmart to test deliveries with EV self-driving cars
I know that the US subsidizes farmers and many other American businesses and I don't think that's right either.
One of the most HEAVILY subsidized industries is the renewable energy industry. Without government subsidy, solar and wind wouldn't exist. That's why I laugh when I hear complaints from those advocating solar and wind about the evil oil industry taking government bailout money. Physician, heal thyself!
One of the most HEAVILY subsidized industries is the renewable energy industry. Without government subsidy, solar and wind wouldn't exist. That's why I laugh when I hear complaints from those advocating solar and wind about the evil oil industry taking government bailout money. Physician, heal thyself!
Do see any history of big oil trying to kill the solar and wind .EV??
Government money into technology sure payed off with NASA.
There are two ways to develop a product. Design-Build (Boeing) & Trial & Error (Space X). Space X may have won the battle (manned space flight) but they are far from winning the space war. Trial and Error has certainly proved to be quicker but would you really want to be the one flying in a rocket that was developed that way.
For that reason, as an Engineer, I abhor Musk and everything about how his companies operate. And FWIW I'm not a geek designer, I'm in Heavy Construction.
Walmart to test deliveries with EV self-driving cars
This is a niche application. I would expect to see alternative-fuel vehicles used for something like this. Same for taxis and other public transportation.
Originally Posted by HighwayStar 442
followed by the all-electric F-150 pickup in 2022
This is interesting as the F-150 is a mainstream vehicle. I presume Ford will continue to make gasoline-powered F-150s as well, at least for a while? I wonder how well the electric will be accepted. People don't just buy pickup trucks to look good when they pull up in front of the fancy restaurant. Some people actually use them to do work, especially towing things like trailers and boats. How well will these trucks do with something like that? Especially if you want to take your boat or trailer any distance? What kind of towing capacity will they have? What kind of hauling capacity will they have?
Last edited by jaunty75; November 18th, 2020 at 01:44 PM.
Do see any history of big oil trying to kill the solar and wind .EV??
I'm sure they're trying. They would be remiss if they weren't trying to outdo the competition and ultimately put it out of business. One of the best ways to do it is to make your product less expensive, and modern oil extraction technologies are doing just that.
If solar and wind are so good, they should be able to stand on their own and withstand the big oil onslaught. Their advantages should be self-evident. They're attractive in principle, but the on-the-ground reality is different.
Wait until there are no more coal fired power plants,nuclear plants,and then see the price of electricity go up. As stated in previous post that OP says he only pays $15 to$25 a week.for a recharge. Wait and see your next bill.
Solar power ,wind power will not keep up with the usage of your homes,business and cars. Where are all the recharging stations going to be? Who is paying for these? How much is the surcharge fee going to be ? Someone somewhere is going to make a boat load of money on these stations. How ever it is your money,your decision . I will keep my gas cars and trucks and boat along with my 65 Cutlass. Just my .02 cents. Bassinguy
I'm ok with checking the box "all of the above" when it comes to energy supply and use. If you want an electric car, go for it. Don't make me have to have one and we'll get along fine. I've never heard a lumpy cam in an electric car, so I don't think I'd be all that happy about it. What was that saying?- If you can't cam it, you can jam it.
Do they make enough noise to ensure blind people can hear them coming while they cross the street?
I have no issues with electric vehicles. Golf carts do just fine. They have no style, no pizazz, but so far, there's nothing they offer which makes me feel the need to jump behind the wheel. NOTHING any EV lineup has to offer makes me say "I really want to drive that." The Tesla cars have nice styling, but still, they're jelly bean A to B cars to me. No soul. Something's missing. Maybe one day I may find out what that is. Maybe one day they'll "wow" me. So far, that ain't been happening.
I'm not an early adopter on anything. I won't be on this either. Eventually I may have an EV. But if I did it now, it would be about as exciting as going to buy a refrigerator.
November 18th, 2020, 08:57 AM
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