coltsneckbob

I've got a 70 W-30 convertible. Numbers match, as they say, from Carb, to Intake, to heads (F), to exhaust (WZ), Trans (TH400, OW) and rear axle. All casting and date codes correct. I also have the original window sticker, warranty book, sales receipt (yellow paper written up by salesman), salesman's business card, delivery sheet and owner's manual (with dealer's stamp on it).

Car has AC, PB, PS, 8-Track, tilt wheel, power bucket, AM/FM.

The situation is this: I recently visited a nationally know restorer in PA. I got a price of about $50K for a full concourse level frame-off restoration. The shop advised that I could get $150K for such a car if so restored. Not that I would likely sell it, but that means that adding the restoration cost to my purchase price a $150K selling price means I could potentially turn a very hefty profit if I wanted.

The $50K would not materially affect my lifestyle as I would/could shift investments in some stocks to this. Given the potential profit here I would probably do better then the stocks would! Also, if I hold the car for a few years I suppose it might appreciate more.

The question then is: I'd like to solicit opinions as to whether folks think such a car fully concourse restored can fetch $150K today - and perhaps more later. In other words is it likely to be a good investment?

I know a lot of you hate the fact that these cars' prices are going up like this, but then again I prefer up rather then down. So, putting aside that issue (in which I do empathize) what are y'alls thoughts on this?

Incidentally, I don't use the car as a driver now. I use it in parades, shows and perhaps to a restaurant on a nice summer evening. If restored I would continue this type of use....it would be able to be seen by the public.

2blu442

You do have a rare car, no doubt about that. But the condition of the economy right now I think $150,000 would be hard to get. If it's nice enough to drive in a parade right now, I'd likely just keep it nice and prevent it from deteriorating best I could. For me I wouldn't make the investment as the future economy is kinda frail right now. John

dkiel358

Another point to consider is has it ever been repainted or new interior or is it still all original, i'm a nobody but to me a good condition survivor would be worth more than a concorse restoration.

My442

My .02

I have been into the muscle car hooby for 25 years.

Never once has been any purchase been for an investment.

I take great pride in searching for parts, refinishing them, and making improvements to the car.

The cars I have had and now have are meant to be driven in nice weather.

To me, and 100 point restoration is too nice to drive, and tends to make the owner paranoid.

"If the only tools in your toolbox are a checkbook and pen, you may be in the wrong hobby"

Jamesbo

The minute it leaves the resto sho, it will start going down hill.
IMHO, you can only have an origonal car once.

Anyone with enough money can do a frame off resto.

[Don't ask how I know this] but I really didn't enjoy my frame off restored car near as much as the drivers.

coltsneckbob

The car did have a frame on paint job about 10 years ago. The rear bumper was replaced as well as the front fenders which rusted out. Over the years other maintenance items were done (booster, some electrical, alt, etc).

My442, I understand your message, but: Yes, I am capable of hands on repair and restoration myself. In fact I have done a lot on this car and several others over the years. This includes extensive body work with frame welding too. I have replaced cams, valves and a host of other such work (never did rings though!!). I started getting into autos with a 1963 Ford Galaxy 500 (my first car) in 1973.....though I admit that from about 1990 on new cars became too complicated for me Anyway the point is I have and do enjoy very much getting my hands on......but I am not capable of course of a concourse type restoration.

If I restore this 442 to concourse level you're right I will be very careful driving it. I would likely get some of those pads they make that magnetically stick to vulnerable parts of the fender by wheels.

However, given the rarity of this particular car is the only reason I am considering this. As it is I would probably try to find another 442 that I would use more for fun and which I would be more hands on with the repair, maintenance and restorations.

That said as an owner of a rare car, that happens to have a significant market value, it does not mean that one does not take pride in said ownership. Nor, does it mean I would not allow it on the road. I would still, as I said, take to parades, shows and the occasional nice weather outing on a Sunday.

My442

Bob, good luck on whatever you decide.

If it were me, I would sell the ultra car car, and buy another that is more drive-able.

A really rare car that is not driven or enjoyed is just like a painting in a museum.....

Beob

I recently saw a 1970 442 w-30 4spd conv sell for $150k at a Barret Jackson auction. Maybe the seller pocketed $140k after fees and that was a 4spd which might be worth 20% more than an auto. I also think it might depreciate slightly if you wait a few years to sell it, because its not a "new" car anymore. But its still a an awesome car!

coltsneckbob

Beob,
Hey where u from on LI. I grew up there....Dix Hills. I went to Half Hollow Hills HS.....the original/old one LOL.

You and Jamesbo have made similar comments in that you think the value of the vehicle would actually decrease years after a resto. That is not something I would have thought. Yes, if the car is driven significantly and picks up lots of miles, and/or significant road damage, but it has been my observation (and I could be wrong) that outside of severe economic turmoil (which will eventually end) that the value continues to climb.

Incidentally - make no mistake about it....I get a little edgy taking the car out as it is today. Even with no restoration it has a high market value and a major accident (like being rear ended) could send to it parts heaven.

stevengerard

You need to send me your phone number and we can chat over the phone, too much to discuss through a forum. Having just overpaid for a decent paint job but a horrible restoration of my own car I can provide lots of feedback.

I too thought about selling my car, as jamesbro said, before I even took it out of the shop because that is when it would be worth the most. My thought, sell it and buy a 70 Cutlass convertible that is still rather uncommon but could be used more often with less a need to be protected. But I have decided to try to enjoy my car all over again.

I have a sense of pride owning a W30 convertible and knowing how much I do know. I am also learning even more everyday as there are so many subtleties to all these cars. I am now spending time detailing the engine and interior replacing parts the shop lost, or inappropriately replaced or that were never on my car (seat belts, switches,TCS solenoid, power steering hose bracket, etc.) This si the fun part for me as I get to enjoy the car while looking and replacing these items as the car still functions while I do the research and find the parts.

As for value, sounds like you have lots of documents, more than most so that's huge. I am sure once the economy pics up these cars will increase in value again but I do not think they will stay high for too long, eventually the mid 90s and early 2000 muscle cars will be in demand and eventually the latest supercars that are out now will be the ones to increase in price - sure we can say they don't compare to the image or style of the 60s and early 70s but 20 years from now we will no longer be the demographic of the muscle car market - our children and grandchildren will be. Also dollar for dollar any muscle car built today is faster, safer and has more conveniences than any car back then in stock trim.

Barry Jones

Is that thorton or thorsten , if so I saw their 68 conv at Barrett Jackson . It was incredible and it brought 128000 dollars.

70 cutlass s

Sounds like you have a great car already, Restoring won't take away from it, since it already had a lot of work done already. Honestly your car would be worth it, being a W-30 conv.

Now saying that a lot of people would love to have one in the condition that yours is in. I think your looking down the road with this one. Most of use look at right now. Looking at how a complete high quality restore, that would preserve it longer. So it would keep it's value and increase and be lower maintenance in the long run.

All I can say it's your money and your car. It's going to up to you to decided. I don't think you will loose either way. If you don't decided to do it now you can always do it later. That could give you time to find a good driver if decide you want one.

wmachine

Small point, but when you mentioned numbers matching, you did not mention the most important numbers when it comes to matching: VIN derivatives on the engine and transmission. We're talking about the difference between original and correct. Not that I think we're talking about a huge difference when you have a documented car in a stratospheric price category.

Couple things come to mind. The $150k value came from a restorer who is (whether you think so or not) soliciting your business, or at least business in general. As usual, the ones promoting these super high values are those with a vested interest themselves. Yourself included, no offense, but that's just the honest truth of the matter.
There are lots of other sales over the last year that say $150k is too high. Sure there have been a couple that have sold for that kind of money. But they almost all are Barrett Jackson sales that are more like a fool and his parted money than it is a realistic measure of value on the market. Prices of a lot of the stratospheric cars have really taken a beating recently with some of the same cars now selling for half what they were. Chevelle SSs and Comeros, for example. Why is that? And why is it that those same cars are now selling for more money as "resto-mods" than they are as "stock resorations"?
Sure, you can take your chance and hope someone at BJ are willing to part with that kind of money.
As for it continuing to going up, there is a lot to say that they won't. There is a popularity of stock musclecars now that will probably lessen, not increase as time goes by due to the passing of the generation that grew up with them. A cyclic thing common with the vintage car market.
Lastly a high value to a car is only good when you sell it, a must for consideration when one in thinking about a car as an investment.
And lastly, especially from an investment standpoint, never confuse rarity with desirability.

OLD SKL 69

Bob,

Sounds like a good dilemma to have. If it were me, and I dropped 50k to make it a better than new car, I would be too paranoid to ever drive it. It would sit in my garage and never be used.

I guess if that doesn't bother you, then you should do it. Yes it might depreciate a little if you use it, but it still would be a great investment. No matter what the economy does, your car would always be worth more than the 50k you would have into it. Good luck with your decision.

coltsneckbob

Berry it is Thornton. Yes, I toured their shop and saw a few cars in various stages of restoration. I can only say that these guys know their stuff. And quite an eye for detail. When they say frame off it is truly every last thing off that can be off. I saw a 69 (I think it was) that just had the main body painted. I thought it was done the color and depth looked great, but they told me it need quite a bit more wet sanding.

When I drove up in the 442 just about everyone in the shop came out to pour over it. These seemed like guys that really love what they do. I did not get a sense either of hard sell, or any other type of pressure. The shop is not a "Tiffany" shop. I got the sense they were fair with their customers. It was clearly a family run place.

Andy - you made a very good suggestion there about finding a driver in the mean time. Particularly since the complete restoration can take from 9 months to a year.

Yes, $50K is a great deal of money, but I have over the years invested much more than that in the stock market - and that didn't treat me too nicely these last 2 years to be sure. As I said previously to me it is shift of investment capital. Take some stock sell it and put it in the car. Is that more risky then the stock market....? I dunno, but I doubt I would lose everything and potentially the upside would be more then the stock market is predicted to bring these next few years.

Obviously, I lean toward doing it. But, I do value the opinions here since you folks are so heavily involved in the pastime/hobby.

Generally a 70 is worth more then the 68 - but if it was only worth $128K after restoration I am still gonna come out ahead.

Well, I am in no immediate rush and look forward to seeing what more of you have to say on the subject.

MDchanic

My concern, aside from those already well expressed by the others, is how certain you can be of exactly what your 50 large is paying for.

Call me suspicious, but I've seen too many people involved in the auto repair business who are just plain criminals, and plenty more who would never see themselves in that light, but whose idea of "quality work" may be very different from yours. I don't let anyone work on any of my cars, because I've seen the things that "highly qualified service technicians" have done to other people's cars.

I'd be afraid that rare and valuable parts on your car might "transform" themselves into less rare and less valuable parts ("Whaddaya mean? Them's the parts that was on there when you brought it in. Are you callin' me a liar?") or that a restoration that isn't quite what you'd expected (but seems "just great" to the shop that did it) might decrease the value of an original car.

- Eric

[edit: wrote this post before your preceding post was posted. I still don't trust anybody, but it sounds like you have a positive feeling about this shop]

w-30dreamin

If I were in your shoes I would do just as you said. Find another 442 to enjoy as a regular fun car and send the convert to Thorton for top gun treatment,then more restriced use and shows.

coltsneckbob

Kurt,
Great points. To answer your first question yes the VIN derivatives are correct on the engine and trans. I have now had 3 mechanics check them and I have done so myself. And I specifically asked them to check for alterations and all confirmed them to be untouched and original.

You're quite right regarding Thornton telling me a price when he is soliciting my business. I have been considering that point quite a lot. Hey, that is one reason why I came here to ask you folks.

I have also pondered the notion that it is the folks that grew up with these cars that are the ones driving the price....and as you say what happens when the next generation comes along. Well, my thoughts on that are:
-Many special cars from pre-WW2 have continued to go up in value. I say special which means they were unique in some way. I do think the W-30 probably qualifies (as do many other different cars)
-American muscle cars as a group represent a very unique and specific time in automotive history. It is a very short time frame from late 60's to early 70's (actually one might consider 1970 the last year of the muscle car since after 71 Detriot de-powered almost everything on wheels).
-I think that we probably have 10 to perhaps 15 years to go before the group that grew up with these machines gets too old -LOL- to want them.
-I see a lot of young people still interested in cars that are nearly twice their age. Of course I am only seeing a small segment of society here in NJ, but again that is why I posted this.....to hear what folks from around the country might have to say about such things.

vette442

Thornton runs a nice operation.

Here's my take: I bought a documented numbers matching '72 442 ragtop - V Code 455 M20 4 speed car - in October 2001 for $20,500. Very solid car, older frame-off restoration, a 5 footer in most aspects that ran and drove great. I sold it Troy Thornton in December 2004 for $25,800.

Their shop went through the drivetrain, did some body panel tweaking and did a very nice repaint from the original Cameo White to Viking Blue. It sold at B-J Palm Beach about two years ago for $100K even. Earlier this year, that seller sold it at B-J Las Vegas and it only brought $65K. Huge loss. Matt Woods at Mission 442 did a beautiful resurrection on a red '70 W30 ragtop last year that topped $150K at auction. That car might or might not drop like a rock next time it sells though.

There's no guarantee that the car will bring the big bucks when done. Odds are decent that it will, but you have to be willing to accept that it may not. Personally, I'd try and keep the total outlay - car and restoration - under $85K - you likely will at least break even on this car over the next decade at that price. You could also end up putting another ~$30K into minutiae and over-the-top details that may only bring an extra $5K return in selling price, especially if the car sees the road once in awhile.

I'm going through this investment versus return exercise now planning for the restorations of my SX ragtop and one of my V Code Supreme hardtops.

My two cents....
Terry

coltsneckbob

Thanks Terry.......great points......certainly helps to have lots of data points.

firefrost gold

I Have a 66 pontiac lemans It had a frame off resto in the early 90's buy the paperwork i got with it . the Thing I like is that the frame still looks great makes working on it much better I cant see if they do a high quality job too your satisfaction what the draw backs are. If it has already been painted and some body work done and some other resto upkeep done and money isnt going to break you then I say go for it. Sure its not going to stay shop fresh forever but should last many a years for you. JMO

Olds64

I think you should continue to enjoy the car "as is." Just try to maintain it at its current condition. IMHO, restoring a classic car as an investment is a poor financial decision. If you have $50k to spend restoring a car it would be better spent in an IRA, 401k, or mutual fund.

coltsneckbob

Olds64,

Thanks for your input. But, can you be more specific about why you think a restoration of a classic car is a bad investment?

Thanks !

dc2x4drvr

A local Dallas Buick guy just took his frame off, documented GSX to BJ, hoping for 120k, it sold for 87k, he said never again would he build another 'trailer queen'.

vette442

The following is solely my opinion, based on watching the classic Olds/Corvette/Pontiac markets closely for about 20 years. There are exceptions of course, but I think in general, a lot of "high-end" material things that we love and enjoy (our cars included) will be financially dead in the water sooner than we think, as far as continuing to gain value. It took me some time to absorb and accept this, but I think world events and economic events really re-set the mindset of the general masses over the past decade, and upcoming younger generations have a whole different view of wanting or spending on these items. "Less is more" and a "good enough" level of quality is acceptable in the iPod/iPad age. I no longer look at my cars as investments in the sense that I hope they'll gain value. I don't enjoy them any less, but I view them differently. Someone will always want the nice and well-equipped examples, but over time a large supply and dwindling demand will keep the prices sane overall.

Again, just my opinion, but I've seen this happen with other things I collect and never thought would go belly up as far as resale goes...

Terry

citcapp

A person in our club has a 67 442 that is just about done with a frame off restore. Its been in a California shop for over a year. What started a a 50K project when first estimated is now a 100k restore with the "just discovered XXX should be done while we have it apart telephone calls". Now admits it was a huge mistake. It can be a trap. As stated in this and other forums for years. If your looking at restoring cars as an investment rather than a hobby your making a mistake. Seldom does a restored muscle car or hot rod sell for more then what it took to build it. I also do not understand the appeal of owning a car I would be afraid to drive or enjoy. What ever turns your crank I guess. Good luck in making your decision. I hope its the right one

Destructor

If I ever do a frame off it would be to gain access to areas of the car which would otherwise be impossible to repaint, the underside, and it would be done to rustproof the body. My car is in great shape so I doubt I would ever do it and I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time on the frame, the frame will never rot away, I don't drive it during lousy weather. I see all sorts of frame coating products but if the frame is in good shape then it's the sheet metal which will more likely rust out. All the factory type markings special coatings etc will soon lose their like new appearance if it is driven and enjoyed. Though I do like the idea of reinstalling as many original parts as possible, original style hose clamps, fasteners etc. and even purchasing some repros I don't worry much about them aging the way they would soon after the car was purchased anyway. I even reused nearly all the speed nuts when I reassemble the trim on my car, they were all in good shape and came with the car, I just cleaned them up.

Usually the only people who make money restoring cars is the person you pay to restore a car.

allyolds68

A 70 4 speed convertible is worth considerably more than 20% more than an auto. I don't remember the production #'s but 4 speeds are considerably rarer and more desireable. I've never seen 70W30 auto go for $150,000

That 68 is an abberation. It brought great money because it was a very good restoration & two bidders got carried away. A 68 W30 (& I didn't think that car was a W30) has never brought more than $50,000. There's no logical reason that car brought as much money as it did

Olds64

Pardon the pun, but a classic car isn't intended as an "investment vehicle." If you want to make money then invest in an IRA, mutual fund, 401k, or CD. I agree with what other's have said, those who do a frame off concours restoration rarely make what they spend on their vehicle, especially in today's economy.

442much

I haven't ready all the posts, so I hope I don't repeat, but something tells me I probably will.

If the car is for investment only, then get the resto done, put it in a plastic bag and wait for the prices to go up again. There's nothing wrong with that, because it is your car and your money. Remember a class 1 car drops to class 2 as soon as you use it on the street.

If you actually like the car and want to enjoy it, spend on making sure everything on it works as it should and enjoy it. That way you have a great car and can use it as it was supposed to be used. Now that you didn't spend the $50K, you can move things around and reinvest in something else. You have your car, you have you $50K to invest. Who said you can't have your cake and eat it too.

442much

Here's one. Imagine driving this on the street and getting hit....major drop in value. That's why most "investments" aren't driven.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...&aid=304&pop=1

allyolds68

I stand corrected

I just went back & looked at the 68 vert that sold at Palm Beach in 2010 for $128,700.00. It was restored by Patrick's Classy Cars of Pheonix. It was not a W30.

coltsneckbob

LOL - this why I have such a headache!

The W-30 that Ken posted the link to is virtually my car. The special order color is even the same as are every option (plus I have an 8-track, whoopie). I also have documentation, which it seems that car did not have. I also see that car did not even have correct bias ply tires - which go for $200 each.

However, the contra arguments are very persuasive too. I know that I could personally spruce up the car. I could replace the worn chrome ***** and handles, I can probably align body panels better, I can replace all bushings and even clean up and repaint (GM black) the frame. Probably all that and more for $5K instead of $50K.

But please continue to state your opinions I really would like to hear from anyone and everyone who has some thoughts/experience on the matter.

MN71W30

Just enjoy it the way it is. Your asking for headaches, ulcers and a bad case of paranoia.

Barry Jones

There is no rhyme or reason to what a car will bring at auction. If there are 2 wealthy people that get into a bidding war ,well thats great for the seller but there are no guarantees in a NO RESERVE auction.

sx455raidercelticfan

ive seen w30's at barret jackson sell for over 150, a ugly yellow with brown int 70 sx455 convert sold at barret jackson for around 150 this year google barret jackson youll see what theyve sold for in the last year, if you have a wanted stock color it could go higher, if you do pay 2 have it restored make sure the restorer is honest!! a frame off rotisserie paint job is at least 25 up to 50 so 50 on a complete job sounds good if the person is very profesional and honest, my friends 70 ls6 has been in LA for 2 years being restored hes spending 75,

in the end its up 2 you but if you do spend 50 you have 2 sell it right away without driving it or the value will drop, if you have all the papers you should be able 2 get it into barret jackson but they take around 10 percent

GOOD LUCK AND DONT PAY IN ADVANCE

Jetstar 88

Others have said this, but do not restore it if it is a survivor (original paint, interior, etc.) Survivors are quickly becoming the hot thing in the collector world.

Bobsw32

As Eric said...If you do decide to do this.....document document document plus hundreds of pictures of what you take them.....I have seen all their works and though it is QUALITY work I have seen them miss soo much stuff that were on original cars....bleeders on the master cylinder, grounding tangs on the cowl seal, wrong water pumps and or pulleys, hose clamps, wrong rotors on the discs....the list goes on and on........so my point is I would not count on them KNOWING what is correct..YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT.......Their work is quality!!!! There knowledge seems about average..........


I chose not to do that on my original owner 1970 Cutlass "S" W-31 post coupe... one of 116 built....and I too could afford..........but who just wants to have it sitting in the garage.......

wmachine

It is too bad "survivors" have not been hot all along. Before many were ruined by restoration. "A car is can only be original once". There is more involved here than monetary value and being "hot". There is a huge historical value in being unrestored.
Not to imply that every car should be preserved (That means being kept unrestored). Yes, often a car is saved by restoration. But there have far too many nice original cars that have fallen victim to the restoration frenzy, and are forever lost. The budding interest in unrestored "original" cars has come far too late.

coltsneckbob

Well, though my car is in very good shape there are a few things that worry me. Inside the frame I do see some (not a lot, but some) rust. There is also a dried mud like stuff in there at various places. The bushings EVERYWHERE are shot. All dried and crumbling into dust. Panels on the doors are starting to pop out.....mostly cause the cardboard backing is getting worn and soft. Most body panels nice some (not a lot) of alignment. My air conditioning vent hoses are 40 years old and all rotted away. I get AC but it only blows on my feet!!!

I am seriously considering all comments made here. I can't thank you all enough for your inputs!!