citcapp

Has anyone here picked up on the news that GM is dropping Pontiac as a seperate brand. It will now be a nitch model whatever that means. I guess it won't be long before it goes the way of the Oldsmobile. Another sad day in Detroit.

joe_padavano

It's "NICHE" model and that means they will be focused on a select segment of customers instead of trying to be all things to all people. Why Pontiac needed a rebadged Cavalier or a Toyota Matrix with a different grille was always a mystery to me. This brand dilution has been GM's problem for decades.

From what I've heard, Pontiac will become a focused performance brand, sort of like GM's version of BMW. How about a Pontiac that only sells the Solstice (with turbo), the G8 (with the GXP version) and maybe one or two other cars? I don't think that's a bad thing. Unfortunately there have been a bunch of websites that have been broadcasting the death of Pontiac without getting the facts right, and this has been picked up on just about every automotive bulletin board I look at. It's amazing to me that this bad info just gets rebroadcast without any fact checking at all. It's a sad comment on our times and should make one wonder about other topics covered by the media.

agtw31

Corvette needs to nationalized.

Bluevista

They aren't going anywhere for now from what I've heard from guys who work there on Poncho sites.
There are three Ponchos driven every day sitting in my drive and my GTO is in the garage.

I got the Vista because I wanted something different and remembered what you guys yelled at me in my goat,
"Hey! GTO means Go-To-Olds!"

citcapp

Ok Joe, so I did more research and you are correct. The first report I read did no contain all of the facts. This could in fact be a good thing.

csstrux

I like the G8 but pretty much everything else can be gotten for less in a chevy, or could have been gotten done cleaner and more tastefully in an olds. I still wish I could have "afforded" the aurora when we got the impala. Personal opinion.

easytobedead

well as long as they make the gto's I'm ok with it

z11375ss

I saw a memo friday stating all hi perf concepts were being shelved by GM. The ZR1, GXP G8, CTS-V, are all goners. Prove me wrong. I hope you can.

oldsonharmont

I read yesterday that Pontiac would become a niche brand focused on performance, Saturn would be phased out after 2010, and SAAB petitioned for bankruptcy last Friday in preparation of a possible sale.

I could never believe GM folded Oldsmobile and opted for a brand like SAAB who maybe sold 25,000 cars in a good year. I think GM needs to 'phase out' Rick Waggoner and let a car guy run the place.

csstrux

A car guy at the controls would do wonders for the company, but we also need to consider the restrictions big brother has put on them as well. I don't think there is a single enthusiast in Washington. It's stunning to see what is available and even somewhat common elsewhere. but we can't get it here. I wish they would introduce the Holden line here, as Holden.

wolfman98

i THINK THERE ARE ONLY GOING TO BE MORE AND MORE SLIMMING DOWN BY THE BIG 3 AUTO MAKERS! Restrictions on fuel economy and profitability of the car will make the decisions for them , but the thing that concerns me is that the "hybrid" vehicle seems to be the way everyone is going. I think this is ok for cars that spend all their time driving around cities. The problems with this technology is that it is not very adaptable to big trucks and buses and RV's. T. Boone Pickens has said that natural gas is the way to go for these vehicles and I think that is probably a good idea but only for the short term , since natural gas is another non renewable resource.I think that another option is hydrogen. Mercedes Benz has done the most research into developing a hydrogen powered car and not just a putt-putt car but they have the land speed record for a hydrogen powered car at 300kms. per hour (185mph). The drawback to hydrogen is that it takes energy to make hydrogen. In Vancouver , B.C. they have been running hydrogen powered buses as well as other cities throughout the world. SO HERE IS THE QUESTION: WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS ON NATURAL GAS OR HYDROGEN VS. ELECTRIC POWER. VEHICLES NOW CAN RUN ON NATURAL GAS OR PROPANE WITH FEW MODIFICATIONS AND HYDROGEN IF IT CAN BE PRODUCED USING GREEN ENERGY CAN BE USED TO DEVELOPE POWERFULL ENGINES WHILE SPEWING OUT WATER FROM THE TAILPIPE.THE FACTS ARE THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO EVENTUALLY CONVERT FROM BURNING GAS IN OUR CARS LIKE IT OR NOT.SO WHICH WAY SHOULD WE BE GOING?

joe_padavano

You are right there, but in my opinion, this "pruning" is long overdue. GM started blurring the distinctions between it's divisions in the 1970s, which is when all the trouble started. Why each division needs a completely duplicative set of models is a mystery to me.

I disagree. Diesel electric locomotives have been using similar technology at high speeds and over long distances for years. Internal combustion engines can be very efficient if they are optimized to run at a single design point. Unfortunately, conventional automobiles require operation from idle to high speed. This flexibility is what hurts economy. Hybrids can help by primarily using the IC engine to drive a generator. This way, the engine is optimized to run at a specific RPM and power condition. The battery is the "accumulator" that levels the power output based on demand. This is also the concept behind a CVT, where the trans is infinitely variable ratio to allow the engine speed to be fixed.

It's not yet clear if hydrogen is a net benefit or not, depending on how the hydrogen is created and how much energy it takes. The problem is that gasoline is actually a pretty good propellant for small mobile sources. It has high energy density and is easy to use in a power plant.

wolfman98

I was watching a show where they were building a 4x4 offroad buggy and it could switch from gas on flat ground to propane when it is on steep slopes or crawling over rocks using a pressurized system so it would not lose power. This only works on carburated cars and just has a special dome attached to the top of carb.there were no modifications made to the motor just a toggle switch to change over from one to the other. I have seen some cars converted to natural gas in a similar fashion though I wonder what effects this may have on the internal combustion engine if any?Both are cleaner burning that gas and natural gas is more abundant than oil in and around North America according to some experts. I can remember the days in Alberta when the gas was burned off from drilled wells to get to the oil. Still can remember that awfull rotten eggs smell.

joe_padavano

This is old technology. It actually helps the engine, since there is no issue with liquid gasoline puddling in the intake or washing down the cylinder walls if you flood it.

csstrux

[quote=joe_padavano;65994]
I disagree. Diesel electric locomotives have been using similar technology at high speeds and over long distances for years. Internal combustion engines can be very efficient if they are optimized to run at a single design point. Unfortunately, conventional automobiles require operation from idle to high speed. This flexibility is what hurts economy. Hybrids can help by primarily using the IC engine to drive a generator. This way, the engine is optimized to run at a specific RPM and power condition. The battery is the "accumulator" that levels the power output based on demand. This is also the concept behind a CVT, where the trans is infinitely variable ratio to allow the engine speed to be fixed.

Joe I have been kicking this idea around for a while (diesel electric drive on class 8 trucks) How familiar are you with the technology? I could use some info or sources if you could point me in the right direction. So far everyone I talk to thinks I'm nuts. And I'm not an electrical engineer, but if ships and trains are using this I would think, outside of weight issues, the components and tech would be readily adaptable. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

wolfman98

maybe the new technology should be easy to adapt to electric-natural gas. As for now hydrogen costs too much to produce from conventional sources of energy.

Bluevista

I see those propane conversions on European sites. They put them on older carbureted American engines all the time. Pretty wild looking set-ups. A lot more in the Scandinavian countries it seems. May be the best source if they use propane for heating.

If they did phase out Pontiac I'd be batting a thousand.
Ponchos, an Oldsmobile and a discontinued Astro Van.
They could have redesigned the Astro or had a replacement model ready with the same functionality for the millions of ultra-loyal Astronuts.
The only vehicle a lot of handicapped people can use with any ease, especially those people that register much higher than average gravitational forces when on a weight scale.

citcapp

Interessting point on the diesel electric idea. The problem with the Hybrids is with the batteries. High cost to build, bad for land fills, have to buy the raw products from other countries. Still leaves us dependent. All electric cars are a problem as well. In states where the electric grid is generated by oil or coal fired plants they still require a non-renewable source

KeithA0000

To me it looks like everything points to nuclear energy. Nuclear generated power can be used to source hydrogen from seawater, and also to provide electricity for electric cars. I guess we need to decide on where the greater danger is-- running out of natural resources, or the inherent (or perceived?) risks of nuclear energy...
I say, lets start building more reactors now!

csstrux

I was thinking that I could use an engine Roughly half the size as is currently in my truck, have it tuned to run at peak efficiency coupled to a generator, and delete the driveshaft using either one drive motor just ahead of the axles, or use 4 smaller motors and fabricate different hubs may be using the existing housings. The three largest expenses are labor equipment and fuel. I have myself on a ridiculously low salary, so there is no wiggle room there, but if a guy can buy a bunch of parts and build a hybrid truck, A guy could ?save? a few bucks there, Assuming the fuel consumption could be roughly halved I could gain roughly a $25k competitive advantage. with nothing else changing. I am guessing that would be on the light side, but may be right in the ball park. Fuel is so vollital its hard to guess what will happen, but pelosi, and a couple other prominent politicians ( i About hit the roof, and immediately went into a rant so I don't remember who) have been overheard saying that gas should cost at least $5.00 a gallon. Fuel would be priced even higher, so it stands to reason if the current administration implements certain policies in their energy program this could be exponentially more. If This can be pulled off a retro fit kit could be put together to fit about any truck on the road. There is money in something like that, but finding people with know how is tough when your primary contacts are dock workers, forklift operators and mill workers, or people you would sooner drive over as look at. So this thought has been bouncing in my head for a while now and no clear idea how to develope it

wolfman98

nuclear energy plants scare the hell out of me and i am sure that you won't find too many people willing to have one in there back yard. plus there is the added feature of how to dispose of the depleated uranium rods. Up here they have been using old abandoned mines and putting it in containers designed to last a few hundred years then putting it 1.5 miles under. I think that they should put in a few hundred underwater tidal power generators up here in the bay of Fundy.we have the highest tides in the world in a huge body of water and you can produce electricity when the tide is coming in and when it's going out. The Nova Scotia government could do the same as what they did with our natural gas. get an American company to put in the infrastructure and let them have 92% of the power. . Knowing the morons running the province here they would probably work out a deal to give away 95%

KeithA0000

You're right- nuclear power is scary. But it's an option that we have now. Tides and wind and solar panels just won't cut it by themselves. Something else has to do the heavy lifting, and if burning stuff is out, it's either go nuclear or grease-up the bicycle chains...

rockethound

well guys i work for a tear 1 supplier that builds radiators, heater cores and hvacs
(heating and coolling components) for every one. the big three, toyota and honda.
we went from working 50 to 60 hours a week to just 4 day 32 hour work week. and the kicker is they said to get your 40 hours you could put in for vacation on friday until that ran out. so there are a lot of cut backs write now. most of the people we supply usually have a 30 to 60 days on hand.that includes inventory at the plants and dealer. now they are telling us they have 120 days on hand. one thing noticed is the pontiac vibe basicly is a toyota and i always thought gm would all other makes and all tere would be left would be cadilac gm performance and gmc truck.
we were told that 20 of our suppliers were in big trouble and potentialy about to go and close their doors or even banrupt. but any way thats whats going on in my neck of the woods with all tese fridays off i have gotten 22 of 38 new windows in my house and have benn able to pick the kids up from school.

joe_padavano

Read that article again. The current products are not being dropped, but they have disbanded the High Performance Vehicles Operations group for now, since by taking Gov't money they must focus on hybrids and "green" technology, not 600 hp Corvettes.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/902189973

oldsonharmont

[quote=joe_padavano;65994]You are right there, but in my opinion, this "pruning" is long overdue. GM started blurring the distinctions between it's divisions in the 1970s, which is when all the trouble started. Why each division needs a completely duplicative set of models is a mystery to me.


When you look at cars from this era, it's easy to see where GM found they could save a buck by sharing components across several platforms. But by the eighties and ninties each brand had lost it's distinctive quality and unique place in the market and Alfred P. Sloans' original business model no longer made sense. Couple this with bad ideas, cheap engineering and poor build quality and you find GM where it is today... on the ropes. I think their corporate arrogance has lead them to the brink of bankruptcy. Oh, and the economy tanked too!

wolfman98

While many people don't like it nuclear power supplies Ontario with a lot of power and there are a few around the U.S. I think that three mile and the one in New Brunswick that had problems were dwarfed by what happened in Russia. I do believe that it can be made safe the only issue is the disposal of radioactive waste. Currently it seems burying it deep underground seems to be the only solution to this problem. Upgrading the electrical grid is needed to help distribute energy to large cities. New York state gets a lot of electricity from Quebec and Newfoundland who both produce huge amounts of hydro-electric power.The big ice storm that hit Quebec and eastern Canada a few years ago took down the grid all across the canadian and U.S northeast. As far as tidal power is concerned there was an experimental tidal power plant built near Annapolis Royal back in the early 80's and still provides power to 4000 homes. It has by all account been a huge sucess story but no other plants have been built or even considered since. It was built at the mouth of the Annapolis River and the tide does not rise near as high there as in hundreds of other areas around the Bay of Fundy. You need to know that the tides exceed 50 feet in some areas and rise more than 40 feet throughout most of the bay. New technologies in the North Sea provide the ability to place generators under the surface of the water so as not to disturb shipping and inlets are screened to protect larger fish from entering preventing damage to them and the generators , and the can be placed away from fishing areas plus well marked so as to keep fishing nets away. The bay itself is huge and you could find enogh room for thousands of these generators. A couple of years ago they had a French tidal power expert come over to canada to look at the bay and gather facts to see how viable it would be and his response was disbelief in why the Nova Scotia , New Brunswick and Canadian governments have not done anything to tap into such a huge source of renewable power. The only thing that will affect the tides is if the moon went away or disappeared. Nova Scotia has a large amount of coal and as long as they are still allowed to burn it to produce electicity any alternative sources will be put on hold. The same thing happens all over Canada and the U.S. Despite what burning coal does to our planet and atmosphere it is thousand year old technology. There are cases where they have had to move whole towns because of all the mine shafts under them just to get the coal. We continue to burn fossil fuel because it is easy and cheap compared to the initial cost of starting up costs associated with solar and wind and tidal plus hydro-electric and even atomic energy sources. We had a wake up call back in the 70's that we did not have enough oil and energy sorces for a hugely growing market. O.P.E.C. solved that problem for us by selling us more and more oil and you can see how the costs spiraled up until just recently.As the economy recovers the costs will go back up accordingly and we will be able to find the oil we need for the demand but for a price. Despite the price of a barrel of oil dropping over $100 a barrel the big oil companies have not suffered any substantial losses. As a matter of fact they continue to make huge profits and push to be able to drill more wells offshore , and have a new technology where they can drill sideways in any direction up to 35 miles so they can suck up all the oil from one location. The oil companies will never change as long as there are billions to be made. I always stop at a gas station before I end up having to push my vehicle off the road , I hope that governments and private industry (oil companies) invest in the future sooner than later. We take too much for granted and would rather not deal with the problem even if we can see it coming. Individual people can make a difference by doing simple things , for instance recycling paper , plastics , tin cans , glass and metals. Changing your light bulbs to energy efficient LED or florescent . Turning down the heat when you don't need it or dress warmer at home. turning off lights when not in use and only use air conditioners when necessary. Take advantage of any government incentives to insulate or make your homes more energy efficient. TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE THE ATTITUDE THAT 1 PERSON IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE IF EVERYONE DID IT WE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS ENERGY PREDICIMENT. THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE , EITHER YOU ARE GOING TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION OR CONTINUE TO BE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

KeithA0000

[quote=oldsonharmont;66080]Two really good points. But I don't think it's that simple. The "trouble" didn't start there, it started earlier. Look at the A-body cars in the 60's- all started with the GTO (correct me if I'm wrong). They were great cars. Sporty, fast, powerful, cool, but could still haul the family AND pull a travel trailer. AND they didn't break the bank to own!!! What a car! You can understand why every division had to have one. And they could save money by sharing parts between them! GM made a TON of money on these cars- and I think that's where the "problem" started. It didn't actually become a problem until they started to lose some of their appeal. The early-70s Arab Oil Embargo brought home to the consumer that gas guzzling was no longer cool. But GM still had this idea of similar cars for all divisions. GM doesn't change it's ways in a hurry...

On the idea of cheap and crappy, I think we can agree that this is primarily (okay, not only), but primarily a problem on the smaller, cheaper big-3 cars. Why? Because they can't make money on a cheaper car- everywhere they can replace a steel screw with a plastic one they did it. To be cheap? No, because they had to if they were going to sell cheaper cars. Cheaper cars = less margin for profit. And then there's that darn old fixed cost- three generations of worker benefits that comes out of the profit for every car off the line. Pretty tough to make money on a 10,000 car when you need to pour 3,000 of it into fixed benefits costs right off the top. The competition doesn't have to do that!

And that's why they have no recourse but to go the chapter-11 route. They simply cannot compete with Toyotie and Hondie in the smaller car market. And in bad times, that's what people want to buy- smaller cars...

Okay, I'll stop now.

geckonz08

Saw A programme where SOMALIA gets the nuclear leftovers from many countries . They are paid to bury them somewhere on land .
After a recent storm ,their coast was littered with hundreds of drums of waste brought ashore by the storm --seems that it`s sometimes easier to just roll em over the side

deltathunder

My previous job was at a pontiac (gmc hummer isuzu saab) dealership and at first the saab dealership was separate and they would send their cars to us to clean because they scarcely sell. Needless to say they crammed them in a few doors down with the poncho gmc hummer isuzu. Isuzus didn't sell much either but we only had a few base i290s(canyon/colorado) with 4 banger and 5 speed standard cab with rubber floor then the ascender (envoy/saab97/trailblazer) but I did like the pontiac gxps (not so much the solstice because I didn't like the tiny windows and low 2 seater) but I like the feel and look of the grandprixs over the impalas although they are on their way out. not to mention how much I looked foward to the g8. I wonder why they are putting the gxp project off it is only slightly different from the gt (6 speed available and they pump a little more power from the 6.0) so I am pretty happy they are keeping it. If they focus on performance maybe people will stop focusing on imported performance cars. That way you aren't buying an expensive matrix or cobalt you will be getting something brand specific.

Olds64

I think the title of this post should be changed to "Detroit going the way of the Dodo bird." From what I have heard GM and Chrysler aren't going to last much longer at all. Ford might do ok. I know one thing, I am never going to buy another domestic car as long as I live unless it is a classic Olds.

deltathunder

What why not? A lot of people don't want to deal with hunting for parts or decrease in quality if these companies do go down but I will take the hit if it gives a possibility of helping the companies that I love and are one of my strongest passions about this country. In fact I will say this. If there are no american companies left then I will never buy a new car and will only buy used domestic cars, I will go so far as to avoid the joint venture projects that are rebadged foreign cars designed to be ideal for those buying foriegn cars. And if the whole world is running on some other fuel and there are no domestic cars left to drive then I will build my own or I will take the old mountain bike out of the basement.

Olds64

I can buy a foreign car cheaper that has a better warranty and won't fall apart or get a meager 25 mpg. I don't mind buying classic Oldsmobiles, but new domestic cars aren't worth the hassle. Detroit is doomed, they dug their own grave.

joe_padavano

So what's the "domestic" and what's the "import"? The gov't recently released data on domestic content in new cars.

The car with the most domestic content (and domestic is defined as US an Canada, by the way) is the Ford Crown Vic, with 90%. Oh, it's built in Canada.

The car with the second highest domestic content (and the highest placing on the list that's actually built in the US)? The TOYOTA Previa minivan, built in Indiana, with 85%.

Olds64

That is a good point Joe.

deltathunder

That is absolutely true and that is why it takes so much research to know exactly what is domestic(or mostly) when we at the dealership had learned that the g8s werwe coming we were reading that the were first designed by holden(not unlike the gto from a few years back) and so they have some very non-domestic stylings. For someone like me you would really have to know the content of the car you are considering to buy and I would rather have a car that had parts from a foreign company and build in canada than to just hand the money right past the middle man and giving it to the 100 foreign car. LIke Keith was saying before they have to cut corners to try to break even. I mean that is why there are no purely domestic car in the first place. I would much prefer to see the 100 percent domestic car but you really can't blame them if they are doing it to stay afloat. I just wish it would have worked rather than to see what we do now which is all three companies in a downward spiral and seeing an economy and international trading that ends in people not knowing whats what and the bulk of them (not just olds64) swearing against the big 3. p.s. I love crown vics

OLD SKL 69

x2

What hassle? While I agree that they have put themselves in this position, I do not share the same sentiment. I have purchased or leased 7 American cars and 1 Toyota over the past 10 years for my wife and I to drive. Not one of the American cars had the issues of the Toyota Camry. And my Grand Prix and Camaro got 30mpg on the highway without a problem. The Toyota was my least favorite due to its suspension and brake issues, not to mention the hard uncomfortable plastics in the car. Some how the big 3 got a rap much worse than they deserve and many people still believe that today. On Long Island, 4 out of every 5 new cars purchased is foreign. Most people I know don't even cross shop domestics. So unfortunately if people do not open up their minds and take a look at what American companies are making today, we may never have any future classics to pick from. (unless you like foreign cars)



I do not like Canadian cars being classified as domestic as well. It blurs the line of what domestic really is. But if you look at what the "domestic" parts content is today of the major manufacturers, the big three overall are around 75%. Toyota is barely above 50% and every other company is well below 40%. Besides, when anyone buys a foreign car, all the profits go back overseas which certainly does not help our economy.

BTW, my everyday ride is an 08 Silverado, made in Indiana with 85% domestic parts content. And more importantly, it is a great truck.

Cameo White

I like some of the modern domestic manufacturer stuff, especially the fun to drive cars. My 2006 Solstice is a very early build (#2129, I think) non-turbo car. No trouble at all so far. Routine maintenance only. They did have a recall on the differential seal that I eventually got done, but mine never leaked so I waited ~2 years to do that. Best of all it is a blast to drive in the summer. Very easy to get sideways in a corner on city streets if you aren't careful. I pretty much keep the top down unless it is in the parking garage at work. Practical--no way, but I get a lot of looks and people still ask if it cost a fortune. (As an aside, the Solstice Coupe debuting in April is a stunner IMO).

There are some good cars from the US companies out there. I saw a few at the Chicago auto show last weekend. Too many people just don't or won't cross shop them.

Olds64

I've already decided that my next car will be a VW. My wife and I own a VW Beetle and it is a decent car.

joe_padavano

Well, is it better to pay US workers to build a Toyota in Indiana or Mexican workers to build a Ford? I'd argue that most of the money that goes towards the purchase price of that "import" stays in the US.

toro68

Agree !!!!!!!!