flatoz

Hello All,

I have posted this in the general discussion in the hope more will see it. While trans related, I'm hoping that some people who have these will pm me with info. And they may not see it in the trans section. But moderators I understand if you want to move it.

Background.

I have a 1955 Super 88 Holiday coupe. It is my everyday car and being in Australia, that's not as easy as it sounds. I can't even buy a thermostat gasket for it at the parts store.

I've been slowly working through the car, as much as you can when you need it Monday to Friday to get to work and pick up kids.

Anyway, I had decided ages ago to put an OD trans in it. I purchased a 700R4 from a builder in the US it was a K case and all good to go. Well long story before I put it in, I wanted a trans guy I use here to have a look at it. it was junk. That really hurt, both $$ wise and interest in doing anything with the car for a while.

I then decided that I would go for a Gear Vendors , but when I looked into it enough and did the measurements. The additional length meant chassis surgery and I just decided I didn't want to cut the car up that much.

So back to OD trans. I then started reading up about 2004R trans. a member here had mentioned them to me, as we never got them here I didn't know anything about them. At first I dismissed the idea because of parts availability etc.

Anyway, now i"m thinking hard on a 2004R,

what I was chasing was first hand experience with the trans.

I don't want a drag trans, it's a daily driver, however the car has 400HP and north of 550ftlb torque, so I do want something to handle that.

I went over to ROP and read up and also the grand national forums too. I was hoping to find a name of a reputable builder. After all a 2k trans in the US will cost me north of 4K once landed here in Australia.

So I want to do this once and once only.

So what am I asking.

1. Do any members have the 455 2004R setup that they can either on the open board send me info on , or pm me.

2. I would also be very welcoming of an pm's telling me who NOT to spend my money with.

3. Any direction as to what I need to make sure the trans has in it e.g clutch packs etc. that will stand up to what I have engine wise.

Here's hoping some of you can help.

thanks in advance

flatoz.

quaddriver

It might be cheaper to move here, with your car, work on it, move back :-)

Look up Art Carr.

The mods they do make it survivable.

No one does 5spds anymore :-(

rccktmn2

Awesome thread, I eventually want to do this with my 87 442 and was doing some research when I caught this thread. Monster Transmission, Jegs, Art Carr, TCI and I'm sure some others build them to take the torque of the 455, the only issue is the lock up torque converter which they also make kits for.

Olds64

I've run across this supplier before when I was considering a 700R4 or 2004R upgrade. I never did any business with them but it would be worth pricing their work.

https://transmissioncenter.net/

olds 307 and 403

You will need the billet forward drum and shaft to start, contact Dr Dan Mascal on ROP. He was a GM tech for many years, builds these trans, has done them for his own high torque Olds V8 and others. He buys his parts exclusively from Chris at CK Performance, another option. How about a 4L80E? Will it fit without major surgery? They will run similar $$$ to the max effort 2004R you need but will need a controller on top of that.

oddball

There are several respected 2004R builders, but each will have horror stories associated with them as well.

Dr Dan has some great info on ROP also.

The trickiest bit is the TV cable. It MUST be set up correctly before the car moves at all! So make sure whatever carb/throttle body/throttle cable setup you have provides the right TV hookup, or can have one added (such as the EZ TV stuff). Most Olds q-jets do not make this easy.

Do note, "Art Carr" sold his name with his business. The business that operates under his name has regular complaints of low quality builds and issues. Mr Carr now runs California Performance Transmission, which has a pretty good reputation.

Bowtie Overdrives is a big shop, lots of publicity, plus they did all the EZ TV stuff. Like most high-production shops, the quality can be hit or miss.

The smaller shops are places like CK and Jake's. CK sells the critical parts and reference manuals and has his own book. I think Jake's is moving to the 4l60e/4l80e units. CK is top of my list, but that's just based on research. I've also heard of lemons from his shop.

IMO, the key thing is traction. If you're running slicks or drag radials, then the tranny has to deal with all 550 ftlbs sooner or later. If you're running street tires, and driving on the street, then the tranny doesn't see that much and it's not nearly as big of a problem.

I would recommend getting a core from the US, then finding a local shop where you can talk to the guy that does the builds. Hand him the core plus the right parts from CK, and you should be fine. The input shaft and forward drum are the most common failures, and having a correctly set up pump is important. Having a local shop is really helpful for when things go wrong.

joe_padavano

CK Performance routinely builds 200-4R transmissions that live behind 9 second Turbo Buicks. They have found and fixed every weak point in this trans.

bccan

My short list-


CK Performance - Chris
(Long Island, NY)

Turbo Buick Performane - Dave
(Long Island, NY)

Extreme Automatics - Lonnie
(Ohio)

CPT Transmission - The REAL Art Carr
(Huntington Beach, CA)


(Don't confuse w/ Art Carr Trans Co.-Long since sold by Art & not the place you want)


It would be hard to go wrong with any of these outfits.

cdrod

Don't forget Mike Kurtz at Century Automotive in Richmond Texas. He has a lot of experience with the turbo Buicks.

http://www.centurytransmission.com/about-us

quaddriver

This is true, when I recommended him I meant him himself and CPT. I am not convinced the purchaser of his old buisness is still around...

mfgusa

If you do choose a 4 speed auto with a lock up convertor, you will also need a shifter for your '55 that will do four gears, as well as a switch for the lock up function if you choose to use it (good for @ 200 rpm reduction). "Shiftworks" supplied mine for my Cutlass's Dual Gate and its as factory looking as it gets. Maybe they have something for your application.

flatoz

Thanks All,

I have looked into some of the names mentioned. Some don't have the best rap on the GN forum etc. But then usually people only come to complain on forums when things don't work. I just want to decrease my chances of getting a faulty trans first up.

as to building one here, the cost of getting parts and finding a core and shipping it, then getting the work done would be up there. Plus the local guys don't know these tran's.

its a street driven trans, no drag racing, street tyres. I will call a few places and see what they are talking $$ wise.

to those in the know. this list came from century transmissions.

are there any things that are missing? Again, I don't know what I need to be making sure I'm getting a quote on as far as upgrades goes.

• Century's shift kit calibrated to our specs
• .500 boost valve, HP regualtor valve, HP 13 vane and rotor kit assy. with hardened pump rings
• Hardend stator support shaft
• HP Wide band w/reinforced struts & lined with Kevlar or Carbon Fiber
• Billet band anchor pin
• HP pump slide spring
• Supershaft Cryo Drum: Stock foward drum shaft is beefed up by tig welding additional material right below splines, Where they are prone to twisting and breaking off. Then the entire drum & shaft is cryo-treated.
• Rollerized rear center support with new bushing
• HD third clutch kit, 7 BorgWarner HD frictions (one extra clutch over stock)
• HD forth clutch kit, We modify forth clutch apply piston to add an additional clutch (total of three clutches) BorgWarner HD frictions.
• New overdrive sprag
• New low/reverse sprag
• Teflon coated pump bushing
• New selective pump thrush washer & new selective button washer to obtain proper end play
• BorgWarner HD frictions are also installed in foward, low/reverse and overrun clutch packs
• New output shaft & direct drum bushings
• Heat dissipating case coating

olds 307 and 403

I would run a 10 vane probably with the billet rotor. The 13 can break, especially with 550 ft/lbs. Go with the actual billet foward drum with the welded in shaft.

68-W46

Got one in my 67 from extreme automatics. Make sure a competent builder builds it and it is installed strictly by instructions. Mine in for 2 years with 0 issues.

mo68442

Guess the question I have is why not just have the shop that checked out the 700-R4 just fix it rather than dumping a bunch of money into another trans? I have ran my own shop for 20 years and done a lot of change outs using both the 200-4R and the 700-R4 with good luck from both if you use the right parts and match the trans to the build that you are doing.
The talk about Art Carr is true that they are out of business, I was a WD dealer with them at one time before things started going down hill with them. The shop forman left before they closed up and he was able to start his own business called Freakshow Performance, his name is Micheal Reeves and he's the one I still use to build all of the race converters I install. He would be able to help you with a converter no matter which way you decided to go.

flatoz

this is some photos of the trans when it was pulled apart.




20150925_170820_zpsxi3u6kqr.jpg



20150925_170534_zpswfhmq2ok.jpg

svnt442

OOOFFF!!!...........yikes!

flatoz

pushing this one up the top again.

Just wondering if anyone has purchased or swapped in a 2004r behind a big block recently and their thoughts. I have looked up and spoken to most of the 5 or 6 companies that keep coming up. It seems to be getting harder to tell which way to jump. So any recent experience would be helpful.

flatoz

I should say, I'm ready to purchase, so wanting to get this sorted in the next few weeks.

quaddriver

my answer has not changed, but something to think about, all 455olds make more torque than the max nominal rating of the 2004R. so it will require the jobber that has the best warranty and track record.

I myself have not done this swap you want, but I do know that 4/5/600hp turbos can live behind them but thats the thing, HP is one thing, pure locked down torque is another. it would be far far worse to have a big 455 behind a mild 2004R and a 2.73 axle than the same engine and trans with a 3.42 or something axle. gearbox torque related failrures will be what you suffer and for example, the 400 used behind 455s is just so so so much larger on the parts that matter....

mfgusa

I opted for Monster Transmission to build me a Street/Strip 2004R capable of handling up to 500ftlb. They did and I couldn't be more pleased. I was going to post an article in CO about it but thought better. It was an easy install and is a blast to drive!


455/425hp, TH2004R (2800 stall), 3:91 rear


If your interested for more info you can PM me. Too much crap running here for my little computer to handle.

flatoz

Thanks, I will say I have been reading and a lot say 9sec GN etc. but it is the torque that worries me, my torque is there right off the bat, and that is what worries me.


Thanks mfgusa, I had looked at Monster, but I will say, like bowtie OD, I was a little put off being these shops turn out so many trans that they probably have a heap of people doing the job and don't pay them that well etc. I could be wrong, but I like the idea of the smaller shop that specialises and takes their time. I will pm you as I'm interested in your thoughts on the trans. I would only look at running a 200-2200 stall.

droldsmorland

To date I have not witnessed a 200 live like a 400 behind a high(er) torque BB, even with all the cryo parts tossed in it. If you can get a 200 with a warranty then maybe, until the warranty company shuts off the free replacement spigot.
IMO the TH400 or 4L80E are the best from a durability stand point, street or strip. Im from the over-build, do it right once camp.
I ask you all who will jump on me about how good the 200 can be to disassemble a 200 and a 400 and make your own side by side comparisons. The 200s guts are small compared to the 400s. The 400s internals are much larger. You kill a beefed 400 and you've accomplished something. We've run beefed 200s in a 1/8 miler competition truck and killed everyone in less than 20 passes, most were catastrophic, as in get out the kitty litter... The TH400s simply need to be rebuilt at the end of the season and generally only need the friction and band material replaced. Rarely do we see a 400 blow up.
I understand the chassis surgery with the X frames. It may not be a viable solution due to that. Though a good fabricator can handle the mod. Too bad as a GV OD with a TH400 is an excellent bullet proof combo. Look into a 4L80E. If your not running she **** out of a 200, smoking the tires at every stop, it should survive for a while. Dont expect TH400/4L80E like durability/longevity from a 200.
Get a properly sized cooler and use clear synthetic fluid in what ever your choice is. Be sure the cooler is plumbed correctly...

quaddriver

perfect, perfect post. no one could have said it better.

especially the internal size comparison. sometimes, size does matter.

Id like to pick on 'monster trucks', the ROTM (run ofthe mill trucks) all weigh at least 8000lbs (and much much more) and have at least 1000hp and most run a 400 or a C6. Yeah, they use like 5.13 or higher gears but those two trannys can take it with simple mods and really the only reason the C6 is now the most prolific is that the 400 is no longer made new and the C6 is.....

A 4L80E, with the TCI controller and a few minutes on a welder for the tranny mount - and it will never die - 'never' of course being relative.

I love the idea of the 2004R, but recall, its just a 4th gear improvement on the 200, which no one is accusing of being strong.

olds 307 and 403

Have you contacted Dr Dan, Dan Mascal on ROP. He has built multiple 2004R behind 500+ ft/lbs that routinely see the tracks and slicks. Not only is the billet forward shaft and welded to the billet forward drum necessary, so is either the cast aluminum deep pan with a bottom feed 700R4 or 4L60E filter like the Hughes pan or even better the extra deep, rear sump aluminum or steel welded extra deep pan. The stock top feed filter and shallow stock pan is very bad behind hard launches.

flatoz

Thanks,

Yes I have contacted Dr. Dan and pm'd him about a trans. He's busy for quite a while. While I'm ready to put the money down. I want to make the right choice so think I will think some more on it.

flatoz

Hello,

raising this post up again, as I have some specific questions that hopefully someone can answer for me and thought I would do this in the one place instead of a new thread.

1. Can anyone who has a deep pan tell me what brand theirs is and what depth it is and what filter it takes.

2. Does anyone know ( or can measure) roughly the distance from the centre of the output shaft to the mating surface/ surface the pan bolts onto.

3. the Holley 20-121 bracket , is this the right one for the kickdown for a 200? I see it is for the 700. Looks to me like it's a generic bracket that just bolts to the Holley

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...e/parts/20-121


Thanks.

88 Cutty Classic

talk to lonnie diers at extreme automatics. I would put them at the top of any 200r4 builder. above art carr and above chris at CK. Bruce janis is also a good one. i wouldnt buy TCI, monster or bowtie overdrives. Lonnie will give advice and not try to sell you stuff you dont need.

flatoz

Thanks,

I've already spoken to Lonnie. I'm just trying to sort out how it would work my end as far as in the car and if the pan will hang down below the chassis etc.

Pfiffle

Definitely paying attention to this thread as I would love to do this also. I have 3:73's in the back. Not in the budget sadly.
Tom

oddball

1) PML has really good info on their pans.
http://www.yourcovers.com/transpan_9917.php
The only other pans are Hughes, which is cast with a drain plug on the bottom, and the PST pan (also sold by TCI) which is welded aluminum sheet. I haven't seen specific measurements for either. Most folks just use a 700-r4 filter with a deep pan. The PST pan has a custom filter adapter. I don't know what filter it uses, but looks similar to a 350's.

2) LMGTFY.....
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-dim/#2004R
Maybe add 0.5" for shaft protrusion from the tail? Not sure why you want that specific dimension....

3) TV geometry is the same for 200-4r and 700-r4, so that should work. The thing to verify is that the TV connection point is 1.1" from the throttle bracket pivot.

88 Cutty Classic

on top of that, the best way to check the TV operation is follow the write up on extreme automatics. measuring the plunger travel as well as checking the presures.

flatoz

odd ball,

thanks, but what I'm trying to figure out is...

I have a TH400 currently. When I put it in the car I set it up so the pan sits about 1 3/8" above the lowest part of the chassis. My car is low and scrapes going into driveways sometimes. So I didn't want to wreck the trans pan.

It looks like I will be going to a deep pan on the 2004R, so I wanted to know , if you're looking at the 200 side on, what is the distance from the centre of the output shaft to the bolt it up surface for the pan on the trans.

Then I can add the depth of the deep pan and that gives me a measurement I can compare against what I have so I know if the deep pan will hang down below the chassis , of course if it does I will have to raise motor and box .

Thanks for the link but I think that just shows dimensions from front to rear not depth as such. But appreciate you finding that for me.

olds 307 and 403

I will measure my Hughes pan tomorrow.

oddball

Ah. I thought you were asking for lengths, hence the confusion.

Honestly, either take the plunge, or get your tranny delivered with a stock pan then measure how deep you can go. A stock pan is fine as long as you're not at the strip or on an autocross course.

David DeCan

I would appreciate seeing some pictures of the dual gate modifications for a 2004R. Thanks.