eds

We just bought and are rehabbing a 1950s split-level. House is structurally sound, but interior is MAJORLY dated. Phase 1 involves a total gut of the kitchen and main bath. Before we start on that, we are replacing the electrical panel.

Would appreciate any opinions as to the need/benefit/cost of upgrading to 200 amp service.

The main part of me say "Go for it!" Better to have more that I don't use, than to regret it later. But it would cost about $1k more, and I'm wondering if it would be overkill. As much as we are doing to/spending on this house, every grand not spent somewhere can readily be spent elsewhere.

House is about 2300 sq ft, gas heat/water heater, and we'll switch to gas drier. No hot-tubs, heat pumps or such. We aren't doing anything crazy elaborate with our rehabbing, but I imagine we will be adding more lighting and appliances than are currently there. The one big potential power use will be my wife and I intend to increase our woodworking, and set up a dedicated shop. So that will mean at least 3 sizeable power tools and dust collection.

But even with that, we've had electricians tell us 100-amp will be more than enough.

What do you think?

MDchanic

I thought everything new was 200 Amp nowadays.

If this house is from the fifties, what kind of service does it have now?
I thought that 100 Amp was pretty much standard for new construction back then, what with all the new appliances they had, and ideas like the "all-electric home."

Personally, I'd go with the 200 Amp.
You say, "No hot-tubs, heat pumps or such," but you never know when you're going to change your mind, and you never know what kinds of electrical machinery you may happen upon, to install in your shop.

The next question is, how much of that $1,000 is essential cost, and how much is stuff you could do yourself?
Does the power company charge you extra for the heavier power drop, or do they figure that they'll get it back soon enough through increased power use?
A bigger box and main breaker, with heavier wire from the meter to the box, can't be worth $1,000.
Also, if you look around, you can often get breaker boxes (and breakers!) cheap or free from demolition jobs or abandoned buildings, so don't overlook that option.

Finally, get the biggest breaker box you can fit or afford - it doesn't seem important now, but ten years down the line, as you try to jam "just one more" double-breaker into that box, you'll be cursing yourself for not having done it.

- Eric

ps: fifties houses often had pretty cool layouts and built-in storage - think about it before you wreck all that stuff out!

oldcutlass

I'd do it, just in what you described in the garage for wood working equipment can easily draw 20-30 amps. See if they will wire in a 220v outlet in the garage for you.

MDchanic

I don't know how busy you are, or what your time vs money benefit ratio is, but I'd wire as much of it myself it I were you.

Electricians will bend you over the unfinished countertop and rape you like the new kid on the cell block.

A full day of running wires with a buddy could easily "earn" you a grand or two.

- Eric

eds

Are you saying we shouldn't have pulled out the turquoise blue tiki bar? How about the love beads? No matter WHAT you say, the mural of the parrot on the living room wall is HISTORY!

BTW, this house has a full unfinished sub basement, and a 3-season brick addition onto the family room. So space is not an issue. My wife is a violin-maker, so we are going to put both a rough and a finish workroom in the basement, and still have space for storage and laundry. Will probably put another workbench out on the addition for use in nice weather. The garage will be for cars alone. May even toss up a shed for yard tools.

MDchanic

Ummmm... If you're not being facetious, then, Yeah!

There is NOTHING cooler than a basement tiki bar.
I had a fifties bar in the basement of my last house - felt very bad about having to leave it.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

- Eric

RandyS

X2 on pulling/running circuits yourself. It is not against any codes that I am aware of. The actual hookups should be done by an experienced electrician, but codes usually do not even require that, as long as you follow all of the NEC (National Electrical Code) guidelines.

IMO, 200 amp is the Minimum I would ever install in a home. There is no way that upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amp should cost 1K. There is not a lot of difference in the cost of the panel itself, (extra breakers obviously cost more, but you won't need to fill it up right away). If you need a new power drop from the street, the new drop will easily carry 200 amp (probably up to 400). The Square D Homeline boxes and breakers are VERY affordable, and dependable.

Just my .02

MDchanic

Well said, Randy.

- Eric

bigoldscruiser

My house was built in 1965 and it had a 100 amp service. It was originally a little over 1100 sq ft but I have added to it twice to bring it up to approx. 1600 sq ft and the service was clearly too small. I asked the electrician to change it to 150 amp. He said I should go to 200 amp since there was virtually no difference in cost and it would last longer then me. The change cost $1800 but there was no re-wiring of the house required. I am very satisfied with the decision. I agree with the others that doing some of the wiring yourself would help keep the cost down and it is not too difficult.

ziff396

Yes, go with the 200 amp. The cost should not be that high just to replace the panel etc. Breakers additional. But still. Look down the road at any possible changes or additions and it will well worth your while to do it now. Electrician and wire costs will only go up in the future. Like said, do as much as possible yourself and save a buck or two. If you do the whole job yourself and have to pick up a permit yourself as a "home owner" with inspections, the inspectors will nit pic you to death over every little detail. That's just the way it is. Good luck with your project.

RetroRanger

I have never heard anyone say I wish I only had 100 amp service....conversely I have heard on more than 1 occaision" I wish i had gone w the 200 amp service"

(i opted for the 200 amp and only have a few open spots left )

GAOldsman

I would make sure to change any aluminum wiring you find with copper. Reason being aluminum contracts and expands with heat way more than copper does and over time leaving the aluminum connection loose and possibly arcing and creating yet more heat and possibly start a fire.

Minimum make a habit of tightening any aluminum connections you may have at least once every few years.

This happened at my rental house just last summer. Luckily my breaker tripped before it started a fire but it was smoking bad. If it had been any higher amperage, it would've sat there and just welded until it caused a full blown fire.







If you plan to live or have to change it anyways then go with the 200 amp, if you plan to flip it or rent it out then stick with a 150 amp. I wouldn't consider a 100 amp panel on a decent sized house especially if you plan on running shop tools, air compressors and saws. Just my .02c

citcapp

Go with the 200 amp it actually does not cost that much more as it is the most popular installed service, hence the costs are kept low because of the volume sold. It will also increase your resale value. Not a tough job to do yourself if you have an electrician buddy to help you out.

GAOldsman

Pat (citcapp) is correct. Probably your mast, entry wires, panel and as much aluminum wiring as possible will need to be replaced and once you have the electric company "drop" your service wires it's just a matter of getting after it. Hook all your wires into their respective breakers and lugs turn all breakers off and have the power company come inspect and return service. A licensed electrician will have to sign a release on the job in my area, but you should arm yourself with all the codes and proper protocol in your area first. In my county, we have five different inspectors and depending on which inspector's area you are in is a difference of each locale's codes and how they enforce them. In my experience most inspectors are worlds apart. Some are good guys and some are... well you know.

oldcutlass

It's not the parts that equate to the cost of changing the drop and panel , it's the labor.

eds

Yeah, my understanding was that going to 200A involved more work. Replacing the mast, etc. I'm fine with replacing outlets, installing lights and such, but this is a bit beyond my comfort level.

Will I want 200A for the plug-in electric cars we'll all be driving any day now?

MDchanic

But he's getting a new drop and service entry anyway, so the labor is the same.

- Eric

oldcutlass

No, he said he was replacing the panel.

MDchanic

Ah, yes, you're right, he did.

That being said, replacing the panel is a major expense / PIA, while pulling new entry wires through the conduit is not that big a deal, and replacing the mast, if necessary, is not that bad either.

$1,000 seems like a lot to pull some wires, since most of the cost of a power upgrade is in changing the panel, which he is planning to do regardless.

- Eric

droldsmorland

100 amp is actually 100 per leg so what everyone calls 100 amp panel is actually 200. A 200 is actually a 400.
IMO you cant have enough room for breakers so with your square footage Id do a 200(400) for sure. As long as the service cable to the meter is sized properly.
I just redid my out dated panel but with one of the large 100 amp panels they call a 30/40 with 30 spaces cus everythings gas except the pool and my square footage is under 2000. If I do decide to put more power into the garage say for the lift and TIG I will sub panel it. The reason I went this route is because the cable from the underground tie-in would need to be replaced too. Thats at least $1500. Cant use a 100(200) amp service cable in a 200(400) amp panel, thats a no no. And I'm most likely not staying in this crib for long.

Lalo442

Going on Parts alone if you go with a 200 amp panel you would want the biggest one , like a 42 slot panel only about a $50 -$75 difference , wire you would go from #4 wire for the 100 to 2/0 for the 200 , pipe for the riser from a 1 1/4 " to a 2" ...as for labor not a big difference I would negotiate, make the Electrician an offer like $200-$300 more for the 200amp service ... he might be pushing the 100 because he has the panel or panels laying around already ... I would do the 200 amp service , I have been an Electrician for 25 years......

Hope this helps ...

jag1886

I added a second 100amp service to my home, retained the original 100 service took the kitchen off the original service added it and the garage to the second new service, works perfect.

citcapp

May work great but if each served by the local utility you are paying two minimum meter charges instead of one and it time it does cost more.

Lady72nRob71

My cheapo 1700 sf ft house built in '95 came with a 200A panel and is fully served by gas. Hardly any voltage drops when the A/C kicks on or the dryer elements cycle.
That was very noticable in my mom's old house...
Given that you have more sq ft and in a colder area and want nice shop tools, I say go with a minimum of 200A and do some of the work yourself as long as you are doing it right and comfortable in doing it.
And to think, I first thought this thread was an alternator question!

Mark57

As a licensed electrician (Canadian) I would recommend going with the 200amp service especially if you will be adding AC to the house. Cost for this can very widely depending if the service stack needs to be moved, if your underground or overhead conductors provided by the utility are large enough and what your utility will charge you for cut and reconnect the day of the installation. Usually your meter base will need to be changed as well. To just change the panel usually the meter outside would need removed outside to isolate power to the panel.
As many have said if you are comfortable doing some of the work by all means do that but be sure all codes are followed and all required bonding/grounding is correct. In our area you apply for a cut and re-connect with the utility which means they are on site for 8am and will not come back until the Electrical Safety Authority inspector authorizes connection. Your permit would also be more with ESA here to change the entire service compared to a panel swap. I have heard of some people going without power for a couple of days do to lack of knowledge and not being prepared.
I have had to repair homeowners work that caused fires due to their lack of knowledge. One house I went to had started on fire because they thought using 16/2 lamp cord wire was ok to feed an outside receptacle. They left an electric lawnmower plugged into it out in the rain and due to not having a ground the cord began to heat up and set the side of the house on fire where the cord ran through the rim joist.
Good luck with your project.

Mark

jag1886

No there is plenty of amperage coming from the pole, the second 100 amp service is after the meter, it's the wiring and fuse box that limit you to a 100 amps, you add a second line into the house and a second fuse box and you have another 100 amps.
I didn't do it myself, a licensed electrician did it with proper permits. It stopped all the breaker popping in my house and I have enough power for a welder now if I ever stop spending money on my 65.

Mark57

One thing to add is get at least 3 quotes on the work and ask them lots of questions to make sure you are comfortable with who you choose.

Mark

eds

Thanks all. The 200 amp was installed several weeks and many thousands of dollars ago. We're very pleased with it and with the guy who did it. We had plenty to do ourselves concentrating on the interior painting and trim. Thanks all for the comments.