442much

That's a $2500 fine here if you can't produce a valid insurance card.

GTI_Guru

I usually have so much paperwork on my cars, I don't keep it in the glovebox anymore. I haven't for years. It's filed at home. I've been pulled over a few times without the actual card on me, and only once was I ever cited for it. All it took was me to go to the courthouse the next day with the card, and it was dismissed immediately.

Of course, I still had to pay the speeding ticket.

-Jeff

aliensatemybuick

So I guess the moral of the story is never park in an end spot (or the second spot from the end) at one of these shows.

stevengerard

I say it out loud, a V6 Mustang form today, is faster, safer, handles better more convenient and the AC works!!

As for this accident sure it is major bummer, but none of us saw it happen who knows what caused it, a lot of assumptions being thrown out there. A few years back I was in the Bahamas and almost got killed crossing the street, I knew they drove on the opposite side of the road but years of looking left-right-left took over and I stepped right in from of a car coming from the right - my wife grabbed me at the last second and pulled me back - Yikes!

coltsneckbob

I have found Asian drivers on the whole to be "not great" drivers. My friends and I have often speculated on why that is.....some possibilities:
-Culturally they tend to be very task oriented. While this may sound like a good virtue for driving it probably isn't since you need to be aware of so many things at once and to instantly prioritize and re-prioritize events around you.

-At times it seems that Asians are intimidated by others that (at least to them) seem aggressive on the road.

-Asians on the whole are a smaller people then westerners. American cars are generally big. Perhaps it is difficult to manage what might seem like oversized controls and amount of car.

-Perhaps the requirements to get a license in Asian countries are not as stringent as in USA and so these folks were never properly trained and their bad habits are hard to break.

hookem horns

Hope it works out well for the victims. Seems to be a direct correlation of people causing accidents not being insured. Crack-smoker who made a right turn from the left lane to take out wife's car had no insurance or license and was not even ticketed! In TX, too easy to game the liability requirements. Just titled my new 69 cutlass and only had to show proof of insurance on my other cars with no follow up required. Or you buy a "monthly" policy and let it expire.

aliensatemybuick

I sent this thread to my wife, more as a cautionary tale about what could happen if we're ever T-boned in our '67 442 vert (which I fear would be even worse what with no roof structure like that Lemans hardtop). I was HOPING she'd just look at the pics. Sadly however, she read through the thread, and wote back to say (in part):

I remember when I wouldn't have had to apologize for anything posted on this site. Ah well, it was good while it lasted.

Class move on the part of the O.P. too, posting the poor woman's face. I encourange him to removed those photos, and I further encourage the mods to lock this thread before it gets any worse.

oldsguybry

IMO.... I find driving very easy , my 8 yr old drives great....so if you cant handle driving / and or need training....stay the fark off the road!!!! ride a bike or walk.......as far as that lady goes , I would go to jail cause she would be missing all the teeth in her mouth , there is no reason for that unless the car malfunctioned , and it seems she was driving way to fast for that area with everything that was going on....all i can say is WTF!!!....ok since she is female i would of spared her teeth lol......oh oh somebody ran out of medicine againnnnn.

Jamesbo

Same thing happen to me in Bermuda. I was look'in the wrong way before crossing the street. Never could get used to it.

TK-65

Recall the 59 Impala Vs 09 Impala crash test. There were some, and probably still are, people that believe that the test was either rigged, car was rusted out, or all the bolts in the front end were removed because old cars are way more safe than new cars.

Seems like there are more and more pics these days that prove that thought wrong.

droptopron

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/nort...s-morning.html

Not that long ago by me - a guy had a remote start in an RX8 that had an LS conversion. He started the car with it in gear & it took off. Hit some bikes, maybe a car or two & ended up in the water.

With regard to the damage to the '67, she hit it kind of high & bumper beats door just about every time.

442much

Here too. If you claim to have one but forgot it at home, I think you have 24 or 48 house to prove it. Go to the police station show it and you're fine. Can't produce one, or the date is after the stop, $2500.

Lady72nRob71

Well, she would never understand the emotions because she had never spent XXXX hours on a car that was her "true love" Only a restorer would understand that. My ladyfriend does not understand it either.

As for the damage, I would like to see the remains of that LeMans launch into the upper side door of a 2-door lexy and see how they fair. Results would be somewhat similar - front end wins.

Yes if I was there, someone would have probably needed to restrain me also.

DJS70cutlass

Its a Toyota under the skin so most likely yes. I belive Lexus GS300's are under the "unintended acceleration" recall.

442much

Is that a legitimate recall or was it someone just trying to extort money? When I heard of the Prius that had to be stopped by a cop car I called BS. Put it in neutral,(tranny wouldn't shift), put the brakes on, she'll stop (brakes didn't work) turn the engine off but keep steering control so not right off(key wouldn't turn) COME ON! Maybe he should have jumped out (door wouldn't open), or ran it into a farmers field (farmer sold to a land developer and now there are houses there),or drove it into a lake (EPA says oil from the car would pollute and if I lived the car would be the least of my troubles)...

69442C

I think all of us understand the emotions but I think the comment about the apology made by Aliensatemybuick has to do with the comments
regarding this womans race and Asians in general. Someone's race has nothing to do with anyone's passion for their car or this hobby and questioning an attack on a person's race or a race in genral doesn't make that person any less of a car enthusiast. It has not been posted what caused this accident and maybe it was something beyond this woman's control. If it was just because of stupidity on the part this woman, then maybe she shouldn't be driving. But that doesn't make all Asians poor drivers. I see plenty of stupid things on the road every day and at times an accident has occurred and most of the time I don't see an Asian involved. If an area has a predominance of one race, then chances are when an accident does occur that someone of that race is involved. It just seems a little unfair to attack a particular race because of what happened here and when all the facts are not known. Losing a classic is plenty to be upset about but attacking someone's race or a particular race is out of line. Just saying.

Lady72nRob71

Just about all of them with a particular accellerator position sensors were under scruntancy - a large range of years and models.

NASA found tin whiskers in a large sample of accellerator sensors and also determined that the electronics are not foolproof.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2011/0...are-deficient/

So that recall is real, but it seems they have not fixed the root causes of the SUA.

442much

You're right. That's why I asked earlier; are they really bad drivers or is it because they are more easily identified? I think it's the latter. You can tell if someone is Orential or East Indian. I say Orential because there are so many different peoples in Asia. You can't tell if the bad driver is Irish, Scottish or Italian, so we don't think about it. As I said I beleive they get a bad wrap because they are a visible minority. But that's human nature to point out the differences. Our teaching tell us we shouldn't. Yes, white people are prejudiced. I have also found that miniorities can be prejudiced as well.

Indy_68_S

I like this pic. I'd like to think that the person in the reflection is the Poncho owner. Then I like to think that they're saying...

"Oh...does that hurt ? Ohhh. Well, its gonna hurt a helluva lot more when I rip off that whole arm and BEAT YOU TO DEATH WITH IT !! ARRRGGGGHHH !!!!"

But that's just me. I have zero tolerance for people who can not, or will not, control their vehicles... Especially if they're in a ToyCedes..

cutlassgal

Sorry, but I had to laugh at that comment, lol!!!!!!

Allan R

Before I became a Rail Instructor/Examiner I used to work teaching Certificate Class 2 and conducting road examinations. From my experience it's not the culture of the person that determines their ability, it seems to be whether they can read and understand English + apply it to the task of driving. Good skills can be taught and they are life long habits that stand out amongst the myriad of drivers who choose to ignore, or forget. Standards for Class 2 are significantly higher than class 5 also. Because I was Provincially certified, I took my job seriously. I learned how to distinguish between nervousness and ineptness. (If you ask, it's based on task repetition and observation to determine consistent or inconsistent outcomes). Nervous drivers will make a mistake, then correct their actions and follow through properly. Inept drivers will never do anything consistently except screw up.

Some of my co workers were from different 'minorities' and overall most of them take the job of licensing and teaching pretty seriously. I didn't get accepted into a responsible position without background, (including driving history, police and reference checks). After that, there's still a huge amount of information to learn, including the best methods of transference. Some of the finest drivers I've trained were Chinese, Portugese, German, Vietnamese, Japanese, Scottish, English, Irish and plain old Canadian or American. It's really easy to stereotype each of these - if you want to. But remember that each of them could just as easily do the same to you. Driving skills are learned, practiced and honed. In spite of that someone else can ruin your day just because they don't have that level of proficiency. I personally don't like the low standards that are set for motor vehicle operation because loss of control of a motor vehicle can easily result in injury, property damage and death.

On the topic of licensing for the Joe or Jennifer Average, (whether it's Angus Beefhook or Sum Ting Yummy) the unfortunate aspect of driving is that not all driving schools are the same or teach the same curriculum. To boot, not everyone who drives has taken driver education. So how is it balanced out? U got it - Insurance premiums and driving history. Go to any car lot and tell the salesman you want to buy a car. They'll sell you whatever you want. The only time they'll ask for your drivers license is if you want to take a test spin. So, on average, don't expect anything except less than average from your average driver. And don't park anywhere close to a hedge that someone can't see through.

oldzy

That pisses me right off looking at those pics.

When My 72 Cutlass Supreme was on the road, a friggin foreigner pulled out from a mall, and nailed the side of my fender and bumper. What put me over the edge was the fact that when she got out, she did not speak a word of English. And to top that off, she had to get her husband or whatever to fill out the Police report and talk to the officer at the station. What a joke.

On a similar note, not too long after the above (damage had not been fixed yet), a friggin idiot at the College I was going flew around the corner in the student parking lot and hit the Olds head on cracking my grille. For some reason, I did not beat the crap out of him, and just said WTF. I mean the body was not the greatest anyway, but still.

/rant

oldsguybry

the exact reason i carry "the club" in my car.....and its not for the steering wheel

442much

One truth in life is, no matter what your age, sex, race, nationality or religion, you think you're a good driver.

coltsneckbob

Seems to me people are trained to interpret a comment about someone or some people that is not flattering as bigotry. Why is that? If you simply say that because someone is of some race, color or creed and therefore they are incapable then that is prejudice. However, I think if you offer a logical reason why a person of a particular origin or belief set might do something that is simply an opinion.

Incidentally bigotry is when a person will not tolerate an opinion other then their own, prejudice is having an unfavorable opinion formed without reason, thought or knowledge. People say NY and NJ drivers are rude and aggressive is that being prejudice against people in those states? What if I qualify it and say drivers in the NYC metropolitan area due to the fast pace of life and crowded conditions tend to be rude and aggressive drivers.

Be careful how you classify opinions and jumping to conclusions. Generally without persistent and consistent set of examples it is not right to condemn a person as a bigot or as being prejudice. If you do you run the risk of eventually confining free speech to only representing a contrived uninspired monolithic set of sanitized ideas. And Americans have fought wars against nations that were like that. I will grant you sometimes some singular one time comments can be more immediately construed as violently prejudice such as one that degrades a people solely based on color or origin, or that perhaps use single word (such as gook or N****r) to disparage a group of people. But, even here you might have to be careful to look at context and history.

Finally, since most cannot know the race, origin or beliefs of the commenter it is hard to immediately classify anything they say as prejudice. Well, at least if you believe it is OK for people of the same group to say whatever they want about themselves.

I like to reserve judgement on things until the evidence is abundantly clear. I also like to allow for the fact that this is a forum where thoughts are freely expressed and that not everyone (myself included) is a skilled and erudite author. In other words come on give people a break.

ziff396

I agree! My wife is from the Philippines. (Asian) 10 years ago. She got her license 9 years ago having never driven before drivers ed here. To date, no accidents and has only slid out on the ice here in Michigan 3 times. No damage.
She also loves classic cars and long drives. She always goes with me to the local shows.
Yes, some of the comments are out of line. I did not expect this out of this board.
Anyways, Can anyone explain how this happened before jumping to conclusions?
Insurance wise, If mine were t-boned like that, I would profit by the ins. doing almost all the work myself.

Mike77

Tha ability to speak English has no bearing on the ability to drive. If you went to Italy would you be unable to drive because you couldn't speak Italian? Now reading sign's is a different story.
Story. Friend of mine 1-month old 2011 Ford f-250. Full load. Goes skiing, wife and kids. Wife" honey I'll drive back to the cabin and meet you guy's there" 1/2 hour later. Where is the wife? Head to the Lodge parking lot. Carnage in the upper lot. 6 import cars totalled one engine ripped out. Lower lot 4-cars totaled and one new F-250 sitting on top of a BMW. Seems snow, ice and 4-wheel drive don't mix with a 60 year old female caucasian. Moral of the story if you don't have the skills take the bus! The Driving "TEST" teaches you the "RULES" of the road not how to drive.

Mike

Jaybird

Wow! I am enjoying reading all your responses. My friend Tom from Riverside, CA sent me the original e-mail. I asked him for more information about the collision and he couldn't come up with it, as it was forwarded to him from someone else.

There are still lots of questions here!


Jaybird

oldsrocket88

I feel bad for all parties involved here. The owners of both Classics...It has to be heart wrenching. The driver in the Lexus, 'cus no matter how bad or good a driver you are, I'm sure her intentions that day were not to crash her car and 2 other peoples car. I just sucks all around.

...and on a final note, I actually work in a Toyota service department (hey, gotta work somewhere and there aren't any OLDS dealers left) The acceleration issue has a lot to do with driver error in most cases. The drivers floor mats were getting caught up under the gas pedal due to lack of either...

A) Not having the "hooks" that are suppose to hold the floor mat from sliding attached.
B) Multiple floor mats on top of each other...and I mean 3 or 4!
and
C) Just general "not paying attention to where their feet are.

I know it sounds strange, but most of the general, non-mechanicly inclined public have no common sense. I even worked at a GM service department for 5 yrs, and this happened there too. You'll get customers coming in with the engine idle at 1800 rpm and them screaming that the car is "taking off" on it's own, and you would find the drivers floor mat shoved all the way up against the firewall and bunched up under the gas pedal. You could even show the customer and pull the floor mat right out from under the pedal, engine idles down to normal, right there in front of the customer.... and they still tell you, "no that wasn't what it was, it did it the other day too and I had the floor mat out"

So, who know. Either way that whole accident thing stinks for everybody... Poor cars

oldsmobum

It is cultural. Vietnam statistically has THE MOST dangerous roads on the entire planet, and its not based on race or eugenics. Its their attitude about driving. In the west, we are taught to be aware of our surroundings, and drive defensively. There, they drive with the mindset that, "you watch out for me" and it is traffic's job to find its way around you when you pull out into the road, etc. They bring that attitude here with them.

To be fair, their children (2nd generation) drive just as well as anyone else.

Lady72nRob71

All, lets try to eliminate the mentioning of nationality, country of origin, etc so we wont have to close the thread. It is somewhat civilized now and we would like it to stay this way.

Jaybird, see if you can trace back to your friend who sent that and see if you can find out any more facts, news reports, etc about what happened. I am very curious.

One thing I notice is that in the pictures, she looks pretty calm. If the car malfunctioned, or she was run off the road, I would think she would be scared to death or hysterical.
Perhaps alcohol or drugs (legal or other) were involved? Some people cannot handle even small amounts.

oldsrocket88, have you kept up with the SUA investigations on this site?
http://www.safetyresearch.net
They point to a lot more than driver error. You might enjoy going through it, especially the NASA report and technician verified episodes.

442much

When I was in China the taxi actually drove on the sidewalk to get around some cars. In a traffic circle the taxi and this other car were crawling along. Both were coming closer. Neither would yeild. The other car's back bumper scrapped my door and the drivers just looked at each other. Neither one was mad and no one stopped. If a car cut someone off, it wasn't taken as personal as it is here. They just seemed to have the attitude "Hey, we didn't get hurt, no harm done." Do I dare say that perhaps we are doing it wrong - attitude I mean.

442much

I would venture to say that she probably hit the gas instead of the brake. An 86 year old woman did that here in a drive-thru...the only problem was, the store didn't have a drive-thru, until after the accident.

Jamesbo

X 2

I think it's fair to say there are good and bad drivers of ever race, color, creed and nationally.

This is a tragic event but let's "Stick to the fact mam, just the facts"

pcard

Only Americans know how to drive well, and only the ones who speak English, oh, and they have to eat apple pie for breakfast.
If that were true then Formula 1 would be pretty boring.
I learned how to drive in Germany and when I came back to Canada I was amazed at how badly the Canadians and Americans drove. It is all about what you have learned and the examples you have around you.
My wife is American, is not Asian, speaks English (does not eat apple pie for breakfast though) - but she must be the worst driver I have ever seen. All her friends are afraid to drive with her, and yes she has insurance; she is not allowed to touch the SX.
I find the discussion here about the concepts of insurance and driver education interesting and thought provoking in a positive way. The discussion about the driver's race and driving ability is not positive - almost like a virus. I understand that we all pre judge those who are different and it may be "natural" to do so, but we must not promote that response in today's global environment; it is counter productive.
I can understand some frustration and assumptions about the "intelligencee" of the driver, but what has been said above is a real eye opener, and a bit scary.
I respect the moderators on this site, and ask them to consider racial comments as "off limits", just as discussions on politics and religion are.

GTI_Guru

I have been watching this thread closely and have had very mixed feelings if I wanted to post here again.

I did want to say that because of others opinions, and the direction that some other posts had taken, I am apologetic if it sounded at all in my previous post if I was being racist, or acting at all like I was biased/bigoted against anyone because of their racial background. That was not my intention. Just making an observation on what I have seen locally in my area.

I work for a large university, and because of this, there are always people here from all corners of the globe. I have no prejudice against anyone because of their background, and never have. As my brother puts it, "I have no problems with race or color. Just stupidity and ignorance."

I respect others for pointing out the fact that this thread could have turned very ugly, and for grabbing the reins and pulling it back from that direction. I hope my earlier comment did not come across as unduly biased.

That being said, I was a bit emotional when I posted earlier, as if I were in a similar situation and had something that nice that had just been destroyed by someone else because of gross negligence, I would have had to be restrained from taking it out of their hide, no matter who they were.

I feel badly for all parties involved in this situation, and only hope that insurance or legal action of some kind will compensate the owners of these wrecked vehicles. Even if it has to go back against the manufacturer for defective components causing a surging condition.

That being said. I wonder how it would play out in court if there indeed had been a recall on the Lexus, and the owner had either ignored it, or was unable to read it because of a lack of comprehension of the english language.

Would it make the manufacturer liable for the failed components, or the owner for not taking care of the problem after they had been given notice there was a known defect and recall.

If I were the owner, I would have my lawyer go after the deepest pockets available to try and cover the loss.

-Jeff

w-30dreamin

That poor pontiac

oldsguybry

I know I am without a doubt ....thats what happens when you been driving for the last 30yrs.....and I also noticed that this thread got a little ugly agaisnt this person leading to some snide comments about mung drivers ( she looks mung anyhow ) WHO CARES....if they drive like crap im going to say something , and if they take it the wrong way...waaaaa to bad....im not ashamed to say that most asian people , especially mung , drive like garbage ...I work with them on a daily basis....good people ? YES.....good drivers ? NO... one of them were such a bad driver that they got into an accident in our parking lot at work.

oldsrocket88

Oh absolutely more with that issue than driver error. No doubt. I'm no Toyota shipper

But what makes me laugh about that acceleration issue, is that the minute any "average joe driver" (and my name IS Joe) thinks their car is haunted with Christine's power of driver-less cruise control, these no way said driver ever thinks it my be their negligence or poor habits, even if proven to them...and the real point was this; I've seen this with any type of car in the 22 years of automotive dealer & repair experience, along with all types of people, regardless of race, sex, age, etc.

I still feel worse for the cars though from this, poor Pontiac.

Jaybird

I also respect the moderators on this forum and I just want to say that I should have gone with my first instinct and not posted photos of the woman and my speculation as to her race.

My speculation as to the woman's race added nothing to the discussion and diverted everyone's attention away from my simple purpose of showing a sad day at a car show.

BTW, I have some Asian relatives and I did not post my comments in order to slam her. In fact, I am rather attracted to others different from me.

So, what should I do now? Should I delete her photographs? I am thinking that it is too late now, the horse is already out of the barn.

I just sent my friend another e-mail, asking for more information! This thread is like a murder mystery, a real who done it! We do need more information, to have an informed discussion as to the cause of this unfortunate mishap.

...And speaking about, "How To Ruin Your Day At A Car Show", Don't ask what happened to me, on my way home from Lansing yesterday. I said don't ask.
Ok, I will tell you this... My family and I are home safe and sound (although a little late $$). 'Nuff said about that.

Jaybird