EightballZ

reunion..finally!!

pogo69

looks real nice!

EightballZ

shes alive!!...well sort of..first i thought float level too low cause idle was rough..but looks to be ok.

but i have trouble setting the timing ..TDC mark is jumping back and forth.

installed an adjustable cloyes timing set

new plugs, wires, cap and coil..distributor still stock...but take a look how much play distributor has..is that ok?? (see video)...

442rocketdave

Your fine thats normal and everything is looking good, if you have a variation in the timing it could be the timing light. Hope its running good!

EightballZ

Well actually its running pretty rough ...but no white or black smoke, which is good.

Also its hard to get her to idle below 1000rpm ..engine is shaking too. Around 1300rpm shes pulling around 20hg VAC.

Timing light is OK since you can hear that the timing is off. Gonna check TDC with piston stop later..engine ran pretty hot like 230..so need to cool down first

EightballZ

ok...distributor cap is junk. that coal insert got totally broken. dont know why..

got an old one that should work but first i need a new timing light. old one fell on the ground and now its display is out of order

442rocketdave

Its typical of a fresh rebuild to have bugs but that happens with points caps rotors and coils, and these things can just mess you day up and make you think your engine has a major problem but once you go through all the variables and get it timed and tuned she will run great!!

EightballZ

Im afraid its not that easy ...i have no spark at the plugs when they are installed at the heads. I pulled one and ground it to the exhaust...nice blue spark occurs...and the timing light was also flashing. so...i double checked the battery ground wire and the one that connects to the firewall. Also used some sandpaper to clean their surface. Still no spark when plugs installed. Any ideas?

I hooked the timing light to the wire from coil to distributor and it was flashing all the time while cranking. With the old cap that looks to be ok theres no constant flashing..

Oh and i use a remote Starter switch so i can crank the engine while standing in front of it...its hooked up the big center nut on the Starter coil and the one where the purple wire connects...if that matters

Old Olds Fan

You do have the ignition turned on, correct? You understand that with a points ignition that you only supply 12Volts to the coil when cranking IF the second small wire coming off the starter solenoid is correctly connected to the coil. It provides a 12Vlot supply WHILE cranking. You have a resistor wire in the wiring harness from the ignition switch that cuts the voltage to the points to under 10 volts when the engine is running. If your only getting the resisted voltage while cranking it might not spark. Try running a jumper from the battery hot side directly to the coil (positive side) if it starts you need to trace the stater wire and check voltage at the coil while running and cranking. It is possible that it's firing through the rotor and grounding on the distributor shaft, you'd see a burned mark under the spring contact which engages the carbon post in the center of the cap. I guess also possible that the spring contact is not making contact with the carbon post, either of these conditions will cause a spark loss.

EightballZ

Well i get a spark when i pull the plug and ground it to the exhaust ...plug wire is still connected to plug and Distributor cap...so i dont think theres a spark loss somewehre ..or do i miss something?

Yes ..ignition turned on

Old Olds Fan

It's possible that it will spark with low voltage when not under compression, put it under compression and it will be very weak,try either checking voltage at the positive side of the coil when cranking or use the jumper wire to be sure you've got 12Volts, another factor could be the points setting, to little dwell time also effects spark. I don't believe you have a grounding issue the headers, the block, all are the same as far as ground is concerned.

EightballZ

All right..makes sense. Gonna check it out tomorrow

Dwell is set to 30°

442rocketdave

I know this sounds rhetorical but there can be everything perfect "looking" but the contact on the ground has to be really good, paint and other things like washers sometimes make for a bad ground, I put a brand new R59 battery with brand new factory positive and negative cables and when I tried to start it nothing we could not move the cables everything perfect....NOT! I notice on a third try a puff of smoke like a little nuke going off right from the battery post. I took it off and scraped it and polished the post and voila it worked so just double check those connections!!

EightballZ

Ok...if i measure the voltage of the battery i get 12V ...when ignition turned on i get 6V at the + coil ...when cranking i get around 9V or 10V

EightballZ

So after using a jumper cable i get 12V on + coil and around 9-10V while cranking but spark still too weak to be caught by the timing light. Timing light works if you take the spark near the distributor cap but the more you move to the plugs it dissapears somewhere on the way (i.e. too weak to be noticed by the timing light)

Old Olds Fan

I guess that at this point I'd change out the condenser with a known good one. Your problem is most likely due to not making enough high voltage out of the coil, you know you have 12v to the coil, so the condenser would be next. you might check your wires but I can't think how all 8 could be effected. your light is an inductive pick-up, so either your not making sufficient high voltage to get to ground or the resistance of the system is off the scale, the headers are held to the engine by 10 bolts I can't imagine a grounding issue but you can check, continuity to battery ground, on different parts of the engine, check the points grounding also.

Old Olds Fan

Also clean the point contacts and check for a good spark there.

johnnyjaws

that's not bad compression on a older motor . I just pulled out my motor from my 70 cutlass s only had 100lbs in 7, of them and 75 in the passanger side center 136000 miles ran good for grand ma but my old 70 cutlass back in 1979. car had 99000 miles and had 200lbs per cyclinder that car was a high compression model looking forward to doing the rebuild ill do that with my son this winter.

johnnyjaws

that don't look that bad ive seen way worse very very worse

MDchanic

This is a perplexing problem.

I agree that, with spark, when in doubt, change the condenser.

I would also check the continuity through the points (most Tach/Dwell meters have a "Points" scale for measuring this, or you can disconnect the coil and use an ohmmeter).

If these do not work, I would swap the coil - do you have an old coil lying around that you can swap in?

This is so strange that I would probably try swapping in the old set of spark plug wires - very unlikely to be the problem, I know, but it only takes a few minutes, and is free. I believe Tedd had a problem where an entire set of new wires was bad out of the box.

Keep "plugging" away at it (), and keep us posted.

- Eric

EightballZ

ok i checked the condenser..see video..looks to be ok.

also checked both circuits of the coil..see video..looks to be ok.

i checked the spark plug wires and found one damaged wire and replaced it. also measured them..resistance seemed to be ok..not changing while jiggling and wiggling the wires during this procedure.

took some pictures of the distributor with cap and rotor removed..maybe you can see something strange.

i also used the old cap that was lying around and polished all the contacts so they look shiny..now the timing light flashes all the time when i pick up the spark at the wire from coil to distributor..which was impossible before..only fired 4 or 5 times during one revolution.

installed an old set of wires ..no effect

but still the same problem...strange thing is..the engine was running last weekend..timing was off but she was running!

P.S.: the distributor fell off my work bench the other day and landed on the cap ....but that was long before i fired her up for the first time

MDchanic

Everything above looks good. The Blue Streak rotor and points look good, but you can't tell what the points continuity is without testing it.

Theoretically, you can test the capacitance of the condenser and make sure it's not shorted, but it's still better to sub in another one just to be sure.

The coil can theoretically be tested in this way, but sometimes under higher heat or voltage conditions, the insulation will break down and the coil's performance will decrease.

- Eric

Old Olds Fan

Since you said you got a good blue spark once in a while I'm not too concerned with the coil. My experience is that Standard " Blue Streak" points are the best, I can't tell from the pics how much of the rubbing block is left, but they do wear down and can get to where even at the correct dwell they don't work, I see some discoloration at the contacts, be sure they're good, I'd replace them if you can get the same. NOW condensers are a continuing problem. The type you've got (cardboard end) I don't like and I've had 3 out of 5 new condensers not work. No one uses them any more so they sit on shelves for years, moisture can kill them. They are a major problem and the reason most folks go to more modern c/d ignitions. My experience is that you can't test or tell whether they're good. Try to get a marine grade "Blue Streak" by Standard replacement, it should have a rubber or plastic seal where the wire comes out and get more than one, it never hurts to have a "know good spare'. The only other thing I see is that the points plate ground, going to the vacuum advance unit looks undisturbed and has to be a good connection, try cleaning it up. By the way you can remove the ugly plastic sponge holder and clean all the grease away. You don't need it, you have a lubricator on the points set and all that grease is problematic. The distributor cam looks good as does the rest. It is also possible that the condenser isn't making a good ground, again I'd change both points and condenser with new! Better yet but expensive go to a c/d ignition just remember to remove the resistor wire so you can feed 12 volts to the new system, in the end you'll be much happier

EightballZ

today i installed an old coil..no effect..still no spark under compression but good when spark plug out of the engine and ground to heads or intake.

cleaned the connections to the points...still no effect.

i also removed the points to take a closer look at that discoloration you mentioned (see pics)

well i guess i should start to order several parts:

-condenser
-cap (already ordered)
-points
-rotor (just to be sure)

is that all?

spark plugs are brand new...so are the wires and coil (1yr old but no mls on it).

never heard of a c/d ignition..is that electronic ignition?

oh and what about the voltage on (+) side of the coil? with ignition ON it should read 12V right? i only got 6V!


.

MDchanic

I would measure the resistance through the points - should be well less than an ohm (0Ω, ideally).
If it's high, then you know where your problem is.

As for the voltage, it should be
about 12.5V with the ignition switch on, car not running, and points open,
about 6-8V with the ignition switch on, car not running, and points closed, and
about 8-9V with the engine running.

- Eric

EightballZ

Resistance through the points is close to zero ...like 0,6 and at (+) coil 12,5V when points open.

Old Olds Fan

" In a CDI system, a charging circuit charges a high voltage capacitor, and at the instant of ignition the system stops charging the capacitor, allowing the capacitor to discharge its output to the ignition coil before reaching the spark plug." (Wikipedia) These systems put out 4 times+ the voltage of a Kettering system (points/condenser) An electronic system IMO refers to ignition systems using something other than a mechanical (points) system to trigger the discharge of the system. Early C/D systems were mechanical but when they were matched with modern day electronic triggering systems they really went to the front of the class. You improve your ignition going electronic, but adding a C/D unit, makes an enormous difference. I was a gasoline marine mechanic for years, when Mercruiser introduced their Thunderbolt ignition systems, they just had a more reliable engine than anyone else, period.

MDchanic

Those sound like normal numbers.

Your problem is probably someplace else. My first bet is on the condenser, after that it gets weird.

You have read the "Troubleshooting Points" thread, right?

- Eric

Ozzie

I once installed a "new" condenser which drove me near bonkers for a while until I discovered that the old one worked and the new one was kaputt and stopped the engine from running.

MDchanic

I think we've all had that happen at least once.

- Eric

Hawghead

Eightballz,

First you spent 9 gazillion dollars on the motor rebuild and are staying with the stock points distributor?????

Second, it sure sounds like your problem is ground. I'm guessing that your not getting a good path to ground through those aluminum heads. You take the plug out and ground it against the iron exhaust manifold and you get good spark. Somewhere along the line you've changed your resistance to ground, from when it was running to now where it isn't. The reason it was running rough before could have been due to poor ground, causing weak spark and now it's deteriorated to the point of not running at all.

Scott

EightballZ

Measured the resistance from spark plug hole to ground strap ... only around 0,6 ohm ... resistance from (+) coil to ground strap is around 1,7 ohm ...its higher because ground runs through the condenser i guess

So this does not looks like a ground issue.

Scott..what distributor do you recommend? My points ignition used to work fine so i just kept it ..for break in at least.

Eric...you mean this thread? Really good info you posted there..

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70608&styleid=4

MDchanic

There is nothing wrong with a stock points distributor. These cars performed quite well with them for decades.


Those seem better than average. Resistance in the secondary circuit is an exceptionally unlikely cause of your problem, and you have just proven absolutely that it is not the problem, so don't worry about it.

You need a lot of resistance to stop 25,000 volts.



No. There should be NO DC current flow through the condenser. If there is, it is no good, and should be replaced.



No, I mean this thread, though it has similar information to the other.

- Eric

Hawghead

First let me be clear, I never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with stock point type distributors but there are a plethora of better ignition systems, both stock HEI and aftermarket, available. My point was that after spending several thousands of dollars upgrading the engine components a couple of hundred spent upgrading the ignition system would not only complement those upgrades but would be money well spent in it's own right.

As for what I would recommend, I'd have to say I'm partial to the Mallory Unilite Conversion kit. It's inexpensive when compared to say a full blown MSD system or the other high end ignition systems. It's easy to install, just replace the points with the photo cell, attach the shutter wheel where your rotor goes (some of them have a one piece shutter wheel/rotor) put your rotor back on and hook up three wires (one to the negative side of the coil, one to the positive side and one to ground). I've had nothing but good luck with them. Many years ago, I put one in my mom's 460 ci T-bird and it not only ran better but mileage went from 12mpg to about 15mpg.

Finally, checking resistance between the spark plug hole and the ground strap can still hide a grounding issue. Check between the cylinder head (spark plug hole) and where the ground cable of the battery is attached, or the ground side of the battery itself. That will tell you what the resistance through the whole circuit is.

MDchanic

Unless he's spent his last Deutschmark already.

But, yes, a true CD or MSD system would be an upgrade, if he wanted to spend the coin.
A "points eliminator" system would confer maintenance advantages, but would not necessarily improve performance, especially in his big, non-racing Toronado.

- Eric

Hawghead

I wonder if we're over looking the forest for the trees here.

Getting back to the basic problem, the symptoms are:

1. Engine starts and runs but runs rough: correct?
2. Timing is not steady: "i have trouble setting the timing ..TDC mark is jumping back and forth." I believe I read that the timing light checked out OK: correct?

So if it's running, just running rough, I think we can eliminate spark at the plug as the root cause. The timing jumping back and forth is what concerns me. That would suggest a timing chain issue (but new gears and chain installed) or a distributor issue like worn bushings/bearings or the breaker plate is moving when it's not supposed to.

It's been a long time since I tore a distributor down to parade rest but if I recall correctly doesn't the vacuum advance canister have a rod that moves the whole breaker plate back and forth in relation to the distributor cam to add or reduce advance? If this linkage is worn, couldn't it allow the breaker plate to randomly move and change both timing and dwell? And wouldn't that cause the engine to run rough?

MDchanic

A good thought, but I would say that it looks good here:




The points plate should be held firmly in position by the vacuum advance return spring - so long as it does not "rattle," it should be good.

Similarly, the distributor shaft should have no perceptible radial play. If it does, its bushings can be driven out and replaced.

- Eric

EightballZ

EightballZ

sooo...looks like i have flow through the condenser...problem solved??

oh and i said i measured resistance to the ground strap...i meant i measured resistance to (-) battery and not to the ground strap that connects to the body.

MDchanic

That's what I figured.

- Eric