EightballZ

so heres what i reached this weekend.

changed the cap and rotor...points etc. in 2 weeks. felt like cylinder #1 and #2 wont fire. measured the temperature at the exhaust manifold...both showed like 40° less than the other cylinders. wont idle...but can pick up spark now near the plugs.

if this is timing related....i'm totally worried about the cam bolt comming lose due to not enough clearance to the front cover

it's an adjustable timing gear set (hex-a-just from cloyes)

MDchanic

Okay, if you think you aren't firing on two cylinders (I agree, it does sound like that), have you tried:
1. pulling each spark plug wire to see whether it make a difference in the engine's speed (pulling the wire from the bad cylinder won't make the speed go down), and
2. doing another compression test.

If you had a problem with the spark plug wires, you'd be able to switch wires and move the problem to other cylinders.

I am very confused about all of this, myself.

- Eric

pogo69

Also are you sure you had the timing set to cyl 1 at tdc or cyl 6....and the rotor in the proper position

EightballZ

..forgot to mention...i did pull the wires and it had no effect..as far as i could tell. and quick compression test on #1 cylinder showed 180PSI @ operating temperatur and WOT....no time to test the others...just a quick and dirty test if there is compression or not

MDchanic

Very strange.

If you have no power from two cylinders, then you need to consider everything that is unique to each of those cylinders (and anything that those two have in common with each other).

You have eliminated cap, rotor, and wires. Since you have good compression, valves, rockers, pushrods, lifters, cam lobes, pistons, rings, heads, cylinder walls and pushrods seem less likely (though double checking valve travel wouldn't hurt).

That leaves spark plugs, and even stranger failure points, like something mechanically plugging an intake or exhaust tract.

I'm baffled. Anybody else? Bueler?

- Eric

EightballZ

rotor is set like it was set just before i pulled the engine..she ran back then.

and timing is set to cyl 1 ..confirmed it by finding true TDC with piston stop. rotor was pointing at #1 after turning engine to TDC @ compression stroke

pogo69

Ok...but that vid sure sounded like valve timing is off

Old Olds Fan

#1 &#2 are next to one another in the firing order, any chance they're crossed?
Where is the timing (initial) at 650rpm, at 850rpm? Is your vacuum advance attached and if so where? Your on different intake runners so I wouldn't think carb idle adjustment, and didn't see black smoke from tailpipes or smell fuel ?, so flooding isn't a probability. Did you change carb base gasket? Possible air leak? You had mentioned ignition leads as a problem before, but said you checked them? Old ones can be damaged by being pulled off and pushed on repeatably, they'll break down. Maybe it's time for know good ones (new)? I've no answer, but hope this helps. Look for the simple things first, I don't think your timed properly, sounds retarded, try a little more advance.

pogo69

Just for the hell of it since nothing seems to make sense why its running bad confirm your firing order and start with the basics maybey you turned the crank after you had it set to tdc then put the dist. in

EightballZ

EightballZ

i'm sure i didnt moved the crank..but..the distributor is not in the same position as it was before i pulled it...installed a bit more counterclockwise. but that doesnt matter as long as the pointer lines up with #1, right?

MDchanic

That doesn't matter as long as the timing light says your timing is correct (ASSuming #1 spark plug wire and accurate timing marks).

- Eric

Old Olds Fan

If you bring #1 to 10 degrees BTDC and the rotor is pointing to the #1 lead on the cap, you should be able to back the distributor housing up to pre contact break point, turn on the ignition, put a 12V test light across the points, rotate the housing clockwise,when the light comes on the points have broken and you should be close to 10 degreess BTDC, (static timing) FELLOWS CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG please!! It's be awhile since I did this. Tighten the distributor down and try to start, you still might need more timing for the 850 rpm idle, supplied by the vacuum when connected,( it can pull in 10 degrees at high vacuum) it should rough idle at 650 and show 7-8 degrees btdc and smooth out at about 850 rpm when the vacuum is applied. Confirm initial timing as soon as it fires.

Hawghead

Remove #1 spark plug, put your thumb over the hole and bump engine with starter until you feel compression pushing past your thumb. Manually rotate engine until mark on harmonic balancer lines up with timing pointer. Check to ensure rotor is pointing at #1 plug wire on cap. Verify the rest of the wires are connected to the cap in the correct order (counter clockwise 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2) verify the plug wire ends are connected to the correct plugs.

Your video sound like the distributor is a tooth or more out of position and/or you have some plug wires crossed/out of order.

Scott

ctosiflying

Eightballz,

I have been following your thread since you started your rebuild and I know that Mark Remmell ground your cam for you. He did mine also. My cam is on a 4-7 swap. Did he do the same for your cam? Did you swap the 4-7 wires? If not then that might be your problem.

EightballZ

uuh good point....he offered me a 4/7 swap cam first but i wanted to wait till he gets the cores to grind a cam with stock firing order...but i wanted to be sure so i asked him yesterday and he confirmed that its not a 4/7 swap. thanks for your thoughts though!

my starter gets bad at the moment..with the slightest combustion it stops hooking up to the flexplate and makes terrible noises. any idea who sells custom mini high-torque starters?

EightballZ

couldnt you just compensate "a tooth off" just by rotating the distributor till the rotor finger lines up with the #1 cylinder mark you placed on the distributor housing?...while #1 cylinder is at TDC of course

aaannd...i remember that i had some trouble changing the distributor gear...is it possible to bend/warp the distributor shaft? that will cause the points to not open equally

wouldnt this show up on the dwell meter?

TripDeuces

No such thing as a tooth off. Not even sure where that comes from.

MDchanic

If your timing light says your timing is correct, it's correct.

There is no such thing as "one tooth off" on a distributor.


If you turned the shaft by hand when you assembled the distributor and it appeared straight, then it is fine.

Yes, it is possible to have to points cam out of round, but it is very unusual, and will cause the timing on each cylinder to be slightly different.

If you had access to a SUN machine (oscilloscope), you could definitively eliminate a lot of these sorts of problems from consideration.

- Eric

edit: Darn, George, JINX!

Old Olds Fan

Back to basics, check firing order, set engine position to TDC #1, check that the rotor is pointing to the #1 cap pole, check points gap when on the high point on distributor cam, test fire, check initial timing, adjust for at least 10 degrees w/o vacuum advance at 750 rpm idle, if you still have a funky idle then bring up the rpms to 12-1500 allow to run 2-3 min then check for cold cylinders. I still think your having basic ignition issues and maybe trying to get too low an idle at insufficient advance.

EightballZ

i'm gonna swap points, wires and condensers next wednesday or so...and ..well..put some fresh fuel in it..how embarrassing...fuel tank was full and sitting there for a year now..fuel lines not plugged..so maybe fuel is too old

EightballZ

...done!

TripDeuces

So is this a good thing?
I've never had trouble with old fuel. Even 2-3 year old fuel. I don't believe that hype

EightballZ

Yeah...New condensers..Points..wires...flooded the engine ..lowered float boal level and now preparing her for her first ride ...gonna post a Video soon. Engine runs great now !!! Big thanks to you guys..

MDchanic

Fantastic! Glad you finally got it.

And I agree with George: Year-old fuel shouldn't be a problem. It may not lead to the smoothest running or the most power, but in an old American V8, it should run with no problems.

- Eric

EightballZ

442rocketdave

Glad you found the ghost but your video says its private? I would love to hear it growl and give us a video of the car on the road if you can! Love to see the GT on the prowl in Germany!!

EightballZ

Does it work now?

442rocketdave

Perfect and it sounds strong! Looking forward to a cruise video in Germany!!!

pogo69

time for the autobahn

MDchanic

Raodtrip!!

- Eric

Fullsizelover

Congratulations, sounds awesome, let's see some front wheel burnouts!

steve442

Now this is funny...

EightballZ

In the end it was quite obvious.. Dwell meter needed a lot of distributor revolutions till it showed 30°. Started at 45° and got lower real slow. With new points i have 30° at the dwell meter after the lobes opened the points like 3 or 4 times only.

can someone explain why its easier for the starter to turn the engine over with timing less advanced? i don't get it...without ignition the power it needs to crank the engine should be the same, right? and you need several revolutions till the engine catches up ...so you need combustion to work against the starter while cranking...and giving it a hard time to start. but there is no combustion while cranking (first)...cause...thats the reason i crank

just asking because the starter is really slow now...and making whining noises...oh..and it smells like burned plastic or so. battery is not empty..shows 13V at the gauge. didn't had the time to check the wires yet. still got the (wrong) robbmc starter lying around waiting for them to offer me a custom mounting block for TH425 transmissions so i can install it.

i'm sure it's got too many cranking attempts on it...it used to stop hooking up to the flex plate with the slightest combustion. definitely need to replace the starter.

MDchanic

As the spark is advanced, it occurs earlier in the cycle (ie: more time before the piston is at TDC).
Even though the engine does not "catch," there is combustion occurring in the cylinders as you crank it.
If the spark is too early when the engine is cranking slowly, the mixture will begin to expand (even if it isn't "full" combustion yet) before the piston has hit TDC, which will produce a force that resists turning the engine forward, which will make it crank slowly.
Ideally, you'd like to crank with the spark occurring at TDC (or even a bit later), and then have it immediately advance as soon as the engine catches and turns slightly faster than cranking speed, which is usually accomplished by the centrifugal advance unit in the distributor.

- Eric

EightballZ

oh ok..that makes sense. so you could play around with the distributor springs to achieve less timing advance while cranking while still have desired advance at idle?

how do i check if starter is just bad or if there's only too much advance?

EightballZ

long time no update here...

had some trouble with the starter but fixed it yesterday. i also moved her from my hometown to the place where i live and work.(200mls)

now its time for carb adjustment ..first miles on the streets and i'm gonna take a look over ignition advance. picked up some distributor springs to mess around with.

already took her for a (really) short ride

i also received a CNC file from RobbMC to look for a company to craft the starter nose so i can mount the 455 olds cui RobbMC mini starter on the TH425 transmission.

gotta fix the exhaust too i guess

MDchanic

Sounds great (though a little loud for a Toro ).

I think you'll enjoy driving it.

- Eric

EightballZ

would you guys call this a lean condition?

should go bigger with the jets i guess...you can almost feel the lack of power/fuel @ WOT

MDchanic

Looks lean to me, but it also looks like it has very few miles on it, so it's a bit hard to tell.

Why is the ground electrode so short?






Better watch out - Once they get an appetite for people, it's very hard to get them to go back to gasoline.

- Eric