Creativeindy

So after cam install someone mentioned push-rod size going bigger. I don't have any engine noise or tap at all so I figured with no lash no use going bigger. I called Lunati and the guy said if I had all stock internals on valve train he has never heard of anyone not going bigger on that particular cam.

So what he told me is this. He said that my push-rod size in my engine should be 9.748 inches or basically 9 3/4 inches. So I say ok and I set out to make sure I at least have 9 3/4 rods in.

I don't! I have 9.55 push-rods installed or 9 and 9/16th for those who want fractions.

I checked for movement at 0 lift and I don't have a ton of up and down but I can easily spin the push-rods and I can sorta feel them move upwards but if it is it's extremely small gap maybe a 16th movement. Not enough to cause any lash noise but enough to dampen engine performance.

I am wondering if I need to just go up to a 9 3/4 inch push-rod. That would give me roughly 3/16th more on the rod length possibly allowing for more valve opening. As of now my car runs extremely rich even though I have a super small carb for the car. I am running a 650 Edelbrock on this car with a performer air gap intake and decent cam. One would think I would be lean if anything. I am wondering if my valves are not opening all the way causing a flooded state?

The car idles better then before but I have lost all my power that I had after initial install. I think it was because the cam and lifters were new, heavy oil, break in oil etc. This took up some of the lash causing everyone of the lifters to be tight. So power was there when I first installed cam. After I drove around block, came home, swapped in HEI I attributed the HEI as what caused my performance loss when in fact it was everything stretching out and lash causing my engine performance loss?

Is this a feasible theory or will 1/4 short push-rods not cause that much of a performance loss? I seriously have no valve train noise that's audibly noticeable.

I checked online and some sites say stock push-rods were 9.55 and others say 9.75. So I am confised as all get out. New plugs, brand new HEI from summit, 45 gap on the 45S plugs, new HEI 9mm wire set, brand new vacuum advance, carb is new, cam, chain etc so I can't see it being any of that. All thats left is the stock push-rods in the engine. Hell I could even have some deeper issues than this since the F heads were removed and these C heads were put on with a cam that was about 4 sizes too big for the stock valve train. It ran with that HUGE came in there just wasn;t good driver on account of no stall converter in car one would think a smaller cam would work even better.

So Push-rods a size up or?

DeltaPace77

I never had very many pushrod problems, as always got everything up front before the cam install. Most aftermarket cams have a smaller base circle grind than the stockers, so usually needing longer pushrods than stock. Most cam places, should be able to provide you with these. Since Old's engines, don't have adjustible valve trains, you may need a rocker shim kit. My latest 455 build, has a Dave Smith adjustible rocker kit on it, and sets up just like a Chevy. Bought the custom worked heads from him too, so the proper studs were already installed. To me, really the only way to go. Many cam companies, have these adjustible kits availible too.

Rickman48

Slop in the valvetrain and lack of original performance would have me looking for the cam going flat!
Drain the oil and stick a magnet in it - see what sticks, and then cut the filter apart and see what's in there.
Let us know what you find.

MDchanic

Good point, especially after a brief run where it seemed to run well.

- Eric

Creativeindy

Yea that could be true but cam going flat in 30 miles??? I don't know man but I almost would say no way. Esp on this paticular car that has short push-rods to begin with. Like stated above, this car had the wrong HUGE cam in it when I bought it. If it was going to wear a cam flat it would have been that one. I can't drain the oil yet I don't have enough miles or time on the break in oil according to everything I read it needs to stay in longer than 30 miles and some garage idle and rev's.

When I say slop in the valve train don't get me wrong, were not talking about moving all around type slop. Matter of fact if the slop on this was THAT bad you would hear it. This car is bone quiet except a tap here and there and im almost positive thats from one of the 100 exhaust leaks. From everything I have read on a non adjustable system you don't want lash and you don't want a ton preload. When I installed this and set the lifters up there was hardly any load if anything there was 0 load 0 lash it was almost perfect IMHO. I honestly do not think the cam is flat. I have had a flat cam before and this car would be popping, farting, pinging, taping among other things. It still has power it just doesn't have freshly installed power. I also had been driving it with a huge wrong cam so power was never there and then after new cam it was back. It could be power is still there I just got used to it. Sounds strange but it's true. If I stop the car and hit the pedal to floor the car will flat roast the **** out of the tires. Flat cams don't do that. Flat cams backfire out the carb more times than none. Flat cams let you know it's flat. A tiny amount of lash(were talking a thousands of an inch) does not mean "Slop". Everyone I have spoke to even the cam guys say the same thing that it's more than likely too small of rods to begin with, bad timing, or a bad carb on it. It DEF could also be timing as well. I am half tempted to go back to points to see if it's in my timing.

If someone can convince me how a stock valve train, stock push rod, stock head motor can wear a cam flat when in all rights it should have had longer push-rods in it to begin with due to smaller circular grind then I will gladly pull the motor back apart to check. I just honestly can't see a cam wearing flat in 30 miles when by all rights with this cam/motor combo it should be loose if anything requiring longer rods to begin with. Again, not ruling it totally out I just don't see it being the issue as why I lost performance. I literally came home after a trip around block to see how it drove after I did the 20 minute in garage break in with fans running and idle high. The car ran and idled great as I parked it. Shut off car, swapped in HEI, installed new wire from block to HEI. Set timing to 20, fired it up and noticed a shitty idle, I then took car out, ran like complete dog **** and seemed to have lost all power it originally had the trip around the block before it had. And when I say around the block I literally mean less than 3/4 of a mile total. I dont see a cam going flat with this condition. It's got to be something else it has to be.

It also as of tonight developed this issue where when it's warm it wants to idle extremely low and sounds like it's only hitting on a 7 cylinders. I give a little gas and you can smell the super rich exhaust fumes as it clears up and idles smooth. Second you let off gas it starts to low rough idle and reak of over rich exhaust out the rear. Just not sold on the flat cam theory right this second but def not going to rule it out.

Creativeindy

I think the problem here is the car is running like *** after the HEI instal and I can't seem to come to a reason why as HEI is a simple conversion and an easy conversion. It's also straight forward and easy. So i'm looking for any and all other things that could be causing this when more than likely its just the timing or carb.

I originally thought that the HEI I swapped in was bad because it turned out ont he S it was using the points wire and never had a full 12 going to it. So I bought this super pricey blue printed mechanical advance one and it did same ****. So this is why I started to think Push-Rods and slop, and etc etc etc.

I need to slow down and stop throwing parts at it and figure out whats wrong exactly. Problem is hard finding out whats wrong when so much is new and the symptoms it has. With no motor noise hard to believe lash or slop exist or cam is instantly flat. With a brand new plus, wires, HEI and verified 12 volts its hard to believe it's a timing issue. I bought the carb used off craigslist it's the only thing not new on the car. I could very well see it being the issue I am having as it could cause all this. I just hate to buy another and it not be the problem. Could also be a bad intake gasket install and its leaking air?? Could have already jumped a tooth on timing? IDK

Creativeindy

Speaking of carbs....I wonder if the screw that fell out onto the manifold that resymbled a idle screw did not actually go to the secondaries or something. Matter of fact when I floor the car now it sounds like the 4 is kicking in but really weird. It's like I can hear the other 2 barrels start to make the loud sound but car doesn't really go faster. It's like the plates on bottom are opening but not the top. I wonder if that screw goes off the throttle part and when it's move so far it pushes open the secondary butterflies on this Edelbrock?? Hrmmm

Rickman48

Don't know where this 'smaller base diameter' BS came from - that's wrong!
Smaller base diameter would require different rocker ratios, and that's usually for roller cams - someone's real wrong!!
How did you pre-lube the cam?
Are you using a good break-in oil with ADP? [might be wrong letters]
I'm not saying it IS flat - might be getting there, though!
Drain the oil as I said - check it, you can always put it back in!
Better to check it now, than have to clean + rebuild later!

DeltaPace77

You had a screw fall into the engine, and didn't mention it up front. Sorry, but that engines gotta be pulled, and disassembled for inspection. May be a small screw, but sure picked the wrong place to land. Gotta start at the beginning again, and this is it. Park the car in a corner for awhile for a cool down period, and get to it awhile later. Also, the carb's gotta be set up right, or nothing will run properly. Don't go near e-bay or Craigslist myself, as just seem more like dumping grounds to me.

DeltaPace77

What the heck is this, as well known cam lobe lift is limited to cam bearing diameter. When going past .500 lift, cutting base circle grind, is really the easiest way. Some racers actually bore for larger cam bearings, to do larger grinds. OK, I'm quiet now, but kinda built a few engines.

cutlassefi

Yes you!!!!!!!!
That''s totally and completely incorrect. Require different rocker ratios? Why? Explain. On second thought don't bother.
Deltapace you're right.

Creative, do a compression check, then look at all the rockers while cranking for even movement. Then go from there.

Creativeindy

Please re-read what I write and don't jump to conclusions. I did not say ANYWHERE I had any screw fall INSIDE...(inside being the key word)the engine. I said a screw fell off onto the MANIFOLD!!!! How the **** is a manifold inside an engine?? Sorry don't mean to go off just a rash of people jumping to conclusions and not reading what I write on some posts.

I buy quite a bit from reputable known sellers on ebay. Summit racing, jegs, etc sell on ebay so I buy off ebay when need to. As far as craigslist thats users preference. I have never had a bad experience off craigslist. Not even with this carb I bought. Fact of business...I bought this carb and it's ran beaujtiful on 2 different vehichles. It just within a couple days possibly started running rough. Even still, I paid 100 for a carb that cost almost 300 new and this was was like new when I got it. Had the recipt with it and I then registered the warranty in my name so I don't blame craigslist I blame some bad luck lately.

Your right about putting car in corner and coming back after a while cause thats what I am going to do. Like most people I fell into the pool of something wrong and I toss tons of money and parts at it. Never really fixing the real issue and 9 out 10 it's something small to begin with.

Creativeindy

Yes sir I did do a compression check and sad to say there all low as hell.

DId 6 second cranks on each cylinder. Head was at 160 temperature. Dry cylinders not holding pedal down.

1 - 126
2 - 126
3 - 146
4 - 146
5 - 148
6 - 145
7 - 140
8 - 145

Those could be low for several reasons and one of them could be due to my gauge being bad. Haven't used it in years and it's just sat in the tool drawer with tools being dropped on it here and there. (It was an AutoZone cheapie to begin with) I am going to go with that the gauge is more than likely correct. Not sure why the numbers are so low though. I have over 20 off on the first 2 cylinders in front of engine. The rest are within range of each other but still low for a 455 no?

I can see all of the rockers moving quite a bit up and down not just a little. I also have no known engine noise to speak of. I also don't know if these heads that were installed when I bought them had any prior work done to them. Eric pulled the F heads and threw these big valve C's on. For all I know the heads could be total junk with bad seals or worse. He did say he doesn;t really remember what type of pistons where in the engine when he changed heads but thats the pistons all looked good as he remembers.

I bought a set of 77cc Edelbrock heads for it last night and a nice Holly carb NEW not used. Thing is, after a week of throwing thousands into this car I am not going to put any mroe of the new stuff on here until I figure the problem out completely. I'm going to first switch back to points to see if maybe something is wrong with what Im doing on the HEI install. I am then going to swap back to my QJet and then test. If both of those show no changed I will start back at square 1 with pulling motor back apart and then having you grind me a cam out so I know what I am getting and what I will need with it.

I do have the original motor out of this car sitting at Erics. I could always just have the blocked worked and new pistons thrown in, dump this new heads with a new intake, and the carb and get a cam ground and then I will know what I have from scratch.

Creativeindy

Carb is only used item on car. It was running awesome as of 2 days ago. I drive it to work and back with no issues outside of lacking power I feel it should have. It runs like a stock run of the mill 350 not a 455 with large cam, intake, carb and HEI if that better explains the power it currently has.

Now... it will run fine COLD but still lacks power. As it warms up it will start wanting to die due to very low idle. Even if I idle up it will still try and low idle and die unless I take it to 1500 RPM. The ONLY thing I have done to possibly cause this current issue is install the new HEI from summit. I did put it back in correct position old came out in. I then reverified TDC and pointing to number 1 on cap. Double checked all cylinders firing order. When it starts its rough and low idle spout it literally sounds as if its missing on a few cylinders. I can then hit gas and without any hesitation or slug it instantly revs up and u can hear it clear out the cylinders. You can them small the funky exhaust fumes. Its a misture of rich and something else. Burns the eyes even getting around the rear of car. After I let off pedal within a second of rev it will go back to rough idle missing condition.

This is what led me into the push-rod delima. Fact is, probably nothing is wrong with push rods. Its more than likely a timing, HEI or carb issue. When I pulled plugs out to check compression everyone was black from rich condition. I have tried to set the Idle/Air screws correctly per edelbrock. You bottom out screws, then slowly back off until the car idles correct and take 1/4 turn past that. Or you can hook a vacuum guage to it and set it where you have maximum vacuum at idle.

So again, in order of how things went.
1. New cam and all that jazz was installed. Took car around block ran like none other. Tons of awesome pulling power.

2.Came back home figured HEI would make it even better. Pulled distributor swapped the points for the HEI from the 71 S I have. Took car around block, ran but seemed to be lacking alot of power it JUST had moments before.

3.Started re-checking everything. No noticible noise, pinging or anything. Car runs, had a shake at idle but then again it's cammed. Revs good, had ok power on interstate. Just runs like a stock 350 not a modded 455.

4. Car went dead and found out a plug was off alternator causing car to run off battery power for prior 3 days. So as i was test driving it was getting lower and lower power daily. Figured this was the issue all along. Popped plug on, installed new charged battery. No dice, still ran like a stock 350 with semi rough idle now.

5. Ordered new distributor with all new internals and mechanical and vacuum advance. Installed, set timing at 20ish, fired up, ran smooth, test drove and then it developed the wanting to die and low idle when warmed up.

6. Put a multi meter on HEI power and noticed that at on it had 12v. At crank it had 12v. At running it has 12v. At revving up it was dropping to 8 and 9v. Noticed the wire that was tapped into was a resistor wire all along.

7. Re-wired the HEI to the IGN plug on fuse box. Verified over 12v going to distributor now in any position and running and even revving. As a matter of fact at rev it will go to 13v on that wire. So it is getting plenty of correct power now.

This is basiclly what the order of things as it happend. I would love to throw the Qjet on and the points back on one at a time to see if this puts things back to right. It's just a PITA switching back to a QJet on that intake. Points and coil are cake.

Thoughts anyone? I'm half tempted to set the thing on fire and dust my hands off. LOL

oldcutlass

IMHO the pushrods may be too short if there is no preload and you can move them up and down on a non-adjustable valve train. There will be noise eventually. I don't think you can wipe out a cam in 20 minutes.

So what is your timing at now? Does the rpm still drop at warmup? And how much? How many turns out are the a/f mixture screws? What is your vacuum at? Which carb and manifold are you running? DOes it have a choke?

Did you figure out where the screw that fell "on" not "in" your manifold came from? Are your plug wires 8MM? And what are the plugs gapped to?

Creativeindy

All your questions were listed above in previous posts but I will cover them one by one. It could help identify a missed issue.

20 Degrees set with engine to 1100, vacuum advanced unplugged and port plugged

As mentioned yes. It will go from 900 or so cold and idle decent to 400 or so and very rough with a noticable miss and smell of exhaust with excess fuel

Hard to know at this exact moment I am at work. I want to say I took them both in to base and ran them out to engine smooth out. I then took 1/2 turn out past that as Edelbrock recommended. IIRC it's at 4 1/2 full turns out from base

I don't know I have not checked as vacuum on the car is pretty decent as opposed to when it had the huge and wrong cam in there only giveing it 10. If I had to GUESS I would say about double what it did have but thats a guess.

Edelbrock Performer Intake #2151. Edlebrock Peformer 650 #1806 Carburetor

Manual choke not hooked up set for open condition. So in theroy it should run rough when its cold sicne its opened and it does for the first 30 second and then it idles fine cold.

It came off of the carb on the side where the throttle linkage is. It is the screw that adjust the linakage for??? Not sure what the linkage on the throttle cable side of and edlebrock carb with manual choke does. If I had to guess sicne I dont know carbs I would say it had to do with the rear barrels linkage or fast idle perhaps? Not sure. If you look at an edelbrock carb on that side you will see the idle screw then you will see a screw that adjust a plate with different steps. Thats the screw that fell out.

8mm Autolite brand new HEI Wires.

45 gap on 45S plugs.


Additonal Information.
Cam is Lunati 60802. .499/.510. Ad Dur 262/268. Duration @ .050 219/227

Timing chain is Cloyes True Dbl Roller.

Distributor is Summit SUM-850095. Distributor drive gear is melonized and compatible with flat tappet or hydraulic roller cams. 0.491 in. distributor shaft.

Fuel pump is stock and appears to be on car a while. Seems to pump good when cold as I can visibly see alot of fuel in the filter. WHen warm it appears to have very little fuel moving through filter. This could be due to normal things as I thought my other olds I had with see through filter did same thing when car was warmed up.

I am using the 2 ports on front of carb. Higher one for no vacuum at idle I am using for vacuum advance lower one for modulator. Rear of carb using for booster. No other ports on intake for vacuum are hooked up. Have 1 water port hooked up in rear. All others have plugs with sealant on threads.

Car has full power so it's not a condition of low power to anything electrical. Have verified 12+ volts in all phases of the distributor, on, start, running and reving nets 12+ volts.

Headers are Hedman longtube thermal coated

Exhaust is Full Magnaflow stainless. Car does not smoke visually or make any noticible engine noise. I can small a rich orfunky smelling exhaust while running. Burns the eyes just getting near rear.

If I have left any information out that is usefull to solving the issues please just ask.

oldcutlass

OK, my .02, the carb is too small for your application and your running lean at idle which will give off a very smelly exhaust fume. Are you running an open carb gasket or a 4 hole. I found with the performer manifold the 4 hole gasket works better because it seals off and seperates both planes and I removed the adapter with my manifold as it does not need it.

When you pull the carb back off there are some screws on the bottom side of the base plate. Tighten each one of them, more than once I found that they are loose and get leaks as the engine warms up.

Do you have your electric choke adjusted to the full open setting with no power. The butterfly is open all the way?

The screw you describe probably as you mentioned fell out of the hi idle adjustment.

Creativeindy

I am not sure I can believe the lean at idle theroy. If you read through everything I wrote you would see that when it starts doing this I can pull plugs and there black with carbon soot and fuel smell. If anything I am running extremely rich at idle. But I will toss on my 750 tonight and see what it does.

I am running an open gasket. Not sure what you mean by remove adapter. To my knowledge Edelbrocks don't come with adapters with there manifolds. At least none of the 4 I have bought did. I had an adapter to run my carb on my stock manifold but Edelbrock carb with Edelbrock intake requires no adapter. I will double check my studs in the intake as well as the bottom of carb and make sure there tight. I did a propane around intake and carb to check for leaks and it came back clean.

As stated I have no electric chock. It's manual and I have it set to full open as I don't care if it's a little cold natured.

Correct. I verified after work. The screw is in fact for the high idle.

Thanks again for the help. Every bit gets me closer to fixing the issue.

oldcutlass

Use a 4 hole gasket instead of the open square bore gasket. It will keep both plains isolated. Sorry i misunderstood about the choke.

In the Edelbrock line I like the Thunder series. My 468 has a huge cam, and it did not like the 750, so I put a 3310 holley on it with vacuum secondaries, it likes that.

Your a/f mixture screws are usually at around 2.5 turns, even on both sides. Just for giggles make sure your HEI cap is seated all the way down.

cutlassefi

Whatever.

Creativeindy

I ordered and will arrive tomorrow morning an 800 Edlebrock just for this motor. Grabbed it from Advance auto locally. Couldn't believe they carry this big local. My Holley I have is for my numbers motor when I build it so I don't want to use it until it's time to install it.

According to my calcs my engines needs a CFM of 789.94 to operate correctly at high RPM. CFM's don't usually play a major role at idle or low RPM. I am not 100% sure on this as I get the information from reading carb websites to learn. Edelbrock suggests a carb from 750 to 850 for the 455 Performer intake manifolds.

Cap is seated tightly checked that a while ago. Trying to narrow down the possible issues to solve the problem. I have a feeling carb isn't the issue, nor is cam. I have a feeling the issue is in the HEI or timing for whatever reason. I am half tempted to just toss the coil/points back on to verify it still runs awesome with it that way.

Either way it goes if I cant get this motor to straighten out I am going to just go full force on the numbers motor, have cutlassefi grind me the correct cam and not play what if with a non custom cam. Mix that will all my new parts and edelbrock heads I should have a runner with it. Just hoping I can get this motor operating right and not have any downtime.

compedgemarine

just to throw my $.02 in. you say it ran good first time out. changed ignition and now it is crap. based on that, something else changed due to the ignition swap.
first: what was done to break in the cam? cams can go flat in a matter of minutes if not broken in right.
second: what was the timing with the points? are you running the same timing with the HEI?
third: what balancer are you using? is it possible that during the break in and first test drive that it did not spin and you are now way out of time?
fourth: yes the carb is small for a 455 but that would have NO effect on the idle and low rpm that you are seeing. it would run out of airflow as it gets past 4000 or so but should be very responsive down low.
fifth: are you sure you dont have a float or fuel pressure issue? if it has too much fuel then it should run good when cold which is when it needs more fuel (choke just restricts air to make it rich) and then it would be way rich when it heats up.
now everyone can bitch about what I have listed but right now he needs to find the problem so I am just trying to narrow it down.

Octania

"you say it ran good first time out. changed ignition and now it is crap. based on that, something else changed due to the ignition swap."

that's what occurred to me in a glance at this opera.

That, and you need to learn how to properly ck, verify, and adjust lifter preload. It's kind of important. Measuring pushrods and valvetrain clearance in sixteenths of an inch is ludicrous. That's what they make "thousandths" for.

Also, you can't "guess" at the engine vacuum. It's a crucial diagnostic tool; use the proper instrument and KNOW what it is.

Fiddling with carb and whatnot won't help much if the root cause is your ignition system and timing. Retarded timing lowers the vacuum which can then trick the carb into richening the mixture, which makes the vacuum worse... which.... you know. I will say that it took some fiddling to get my HC 403 to be happy with its mechanical HEI- travel limited VA unit, MA springs and weights kit, bumping the timing way up mainly by using full manifold vacuum to the dist'r VA unit.... Now it has pretty good vacuum at about 14-15" Hg., and has super strong throttle response. Retarded timing lowers the vacuum which can then trick the carb into richening the mixture, which makes the vacuum worse... which.... you know.

Now, go read the first sentence of this again.

Creativeindy

I am well aware how to properly set pre-load. Matter of fact my original scribe marks are still on the push-rods. My pre-load at cam install was .020 to .025 across the board. Again, as stated above there was no lash or excessive load on the lifters when installed. Also I quoted 1/16 due to the fact that my push-rod is 9.554398(to be exact) in length. What was told to me by the cam manufacturer was there should be a push-rod at 9.748965 installed with that particular cam and stock valve train on that motor. So to sum it up for everyone I am roughly 1/4 inch short in a nut shell according to Lunati. If everyone needs that converted to thousandths if it lets you better grasp the length difference I can do the math for ya just ask. According to my engine, pre-load and zero engine noise I am good to go with no additional length required. This could be due to numerous things but point being I have proper pre-load, it was set properly and re-checked just recently.

Well if I knew what the something else was earlier I wouldn't be posting in here all week I would be out enjoying my nice ride Thus why I am posting in here to try and think of things I could have missed or possibly done incorrectly. To put the ignition swap as the problem to bed, I changed it all back to points and it didn't effect anything. Still same lack of power from where it should be. As you will read further you will see part of what is wrong.

Well sir I know how to properly check vacuum. I have checked it before this is WHY this cam was changed. My other thread I posted vacuum readings from the engine and we figured out the PO installed the wrong cam. I am pretty sure you read that thread cause I remember you posting in there AFTER I listed my proper vacuum readings. That said point is, I am well aware of how to properly read and check vacuum. I have a pretty nice manual gauge and a super nice digital that does it for me. When I was asked today I was at work. I guessed at the vacuum because up until he asked I had not checked it again since the day I installed the new cam and buttoned motor back up. The vacuum was at 17 according to my scribbles on the paper on my bench. Pardon my "Guess" comment in reply to someone else earlier due to not having the correct answer at that time.

The issue is NOT timing, not at all, not even a little bit. The whole reason I even post on here is so I can have a record of things I have done and tried. I also do this so I can discuss with others on possible causes or solutions so I can either see something I overlooked or learn something new. Fact is, everyone of us should have ruled out timing after I posted I had all new distributor, wires, plugs, proper gap, proper power wire, proper firing order etc etc. I didn't check and install new stuff once, not twice but THREE TIMES. That said it was not a timing issue and I should have went with my gut earlier in the week and walked away from the timing aspect after I installed new **** 3 times and then quadruple checked every last thing and timed it for the 100th time.

I also should had never pulled valve covers and got into measuring ****. I set pre-load properly, I have no engine noise, car is no back firing, popping, spitting or showing any indications I have any sort of valve train issue so I should have just left that be and focused on other root causes.

The issue was the carb all along. Its not that it was too small or improper air screw sets or choke or any of that ****. It was just coincidence that the carb fucked up right as I changed to HEI. Fact of business fiddling with the carb today got me to notice it had a pretty bad leak internally that I did not see until I got up over the engine while running. It was straight dumping fuel down into the left intake runner. When I pulled the carb it had a pool of fuel inside the intake. It also had a crack in the new gasket on the back right corner of the carb gasket. I tossed on my new holley with new gasket and presto. Idled like it doesnt even have a cam in it. Granted I have not given it the butt dyno test as I have the car on stands swapping out headers and exhaust. However I will in morning and will post the results.

Creativeindy

I am using my stock 455 balancer. It hasn't spun the car is timed right its been checked over 20 times by not only me but several others. It was never the problem and after I replaced everything and timed it 20 times I should have walked away on that and looked else where


Pretty sure that's what I said myself up above. I stated that CFM or small carb doesn't matter until higher RPM. Matter of fact you can remove the carb and pour fuel directly into intake and the engine will run fine as long as you keep pouring it consistently. Unless you were saying this to the other guy who mentioned my carb was WAY to small and I was running lean at idle?

Close... broke carb on right side pouring fuel into intake. Also cracked gasket on back side adding to the issues. It in fact did run quite well with no choke at cold so that's why I have been saying since the beginning its running super rich at idle.

Appreciate the help and trying to narrow it down. Like I stated before this post...I should have stuck to my gut instinct and after I checked it for the 3 or 4th time walked away and tried another option. I am pretty good at working on cars or so I think. I am far from an expert but most of it's common sense. I've been fiddling with cars for 24 years now ever since I was 13. About the only thing I have not done is a full rebuild of a motor from ground up. I should have just did the obvious from the start and swapped carbs to be sure. Easy enough to rule out fuel if it has a new source on. Oh well, lesson learned.

compedgemarine

my first thought after reading everything you said you did was a carb problem but I wanted to make sure of the other things I mentioned first. I know a lot of people here like the Edelbrock carbs but I have had quite a few problems with them. mostly stupid things like you are seeing but still it gets annoying. yes I made the point of the carb size for all those saying it was too small and that was the problem as you had idle issues and unless it was a carb off your lawn mower it would still flow enough air to idle. hopefully the new carb gets you going and yes, sometimes you just have to walk away for awhile and come back with a fresh brain.

Nasty455

9.55 is the correct length for an olds 455 with stock valve train.
Hooking a vacuum gauge up will diagnose easily any internal engine damage.
If you dropped anything into the manifold,in can enter the combustion chamber.
Hopefully it gets spit out the exhaust,when the valve opens.
if it gets stuck between the valve and head,you can chew up something.
A leakdown test is the best way to check a cylinder.
if a cylinder does not hold pressure,you've found the bad cylinder.

http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm

oldcutlass

Sorry I understand how carbs work, however in my past dealings with the Edelbrock Performer series, on the smaller carbs, they tend to run very lean at idle on large cubic inch engines with big cams. With low vacuum they get really erratic. My comment on the eye burning exhaust smell was based on this issue. The 3310 corrected this in my passed dealings.

On the divider issue, yes cutting the divider down has been a common practice. However, when there is a 1/16 - 1/8 gap under the carb, I've also witnessed strange shaking issues, when the open gasket was replaced with a 4 hole and isolated the 2 sides those issues went away. So why do they make the 4 hole gasket if its uneccessary?

In the other post he mentioned changing the ignition system and I posted it needs 12v operate went overlooked.

My pre-load statement was in response to the OP stating that his pushrods can be moved up and down, and with everything set still twirl them around with his fingers.

Creativeindy

The 12v didn't go overlooked bro. Your comment got me to double checking everything on the ignition power. See I checked that wire at on position, and starting and will running at idle and it always say 12 or 11.9. I then had my wife rev while I was checking other things and just happened to catch the multimeter jump low and it dropped to 8 ad 9. Everything I had read just said to check while on and while running. I never read any posts or how to's that said to rev it past 1100 to see the drop in voltage. Either way got it switched and fixed so thanks

Octania

Originally Posted by Octania
That, and you need to learn how to properly ck, verify, and adjust lifter preload. It's kind of important. Measuring pushrods and valvetrain clearance in sixteenths of an inch is ludicrous. That's what they make "thousandths" for.
...
I am well aware how to properly set pre-load. Matter of fact my original scribe marks are still on the push-rods.
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scribe marks, really? OK then. You measure the distance the pushrod moved by a hand placed scribe mark, using a tape measure I guess. OK.


My pre-load at cam install was .020 to .025 across the board.
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Oh, ok. With a scribe mark, relative to... the head surface?
I go by turns of the rocker pedestal screw, and your 20-25 thou would be very low in terms of turns of that fastener, like under 1/2 turn. When I found that I had 0 to 1/2 turn preload on my 403... I fixed it.

Again, as stated above there was no lash or excessive load on the lifters when installed.
==============
It sounded like there was no clue in my quick reading of the story. Measuring pushrods and using figures like "a quarter inch" = not one clue. I should have read "more closlier".

Also I quoted 1/16 due to the fact that my push-rod is 9.554398(to be exact) in length.
============
ha ha ha, if you have equipment that can measure to the millionth of an inch that's pretty good. You can detect variations in length due to minor alterations in room temperature. I assume then your instruments are calibrated and traceable to NIST standards. Clearly, you have that issue nailed.

What was told to me by the cam manufacturer was there should be a push-rod at 9.748965 installed with that particular cam and stock valve train on that motor. So to sum it up for everyone I am roughly 1/4 inch short in a nut shell according to Lunati.
==============
:-) it's a good thing I am not easily offended. 'Cause that's pretty asinine. Pretty funny too. "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with a chain saw" as they say.


If everyone needs that converted to thousandths if it lets you better grasp the length difference I can do the math for ya just ask.
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If you don't mind, sure. Can you list it in megameters and astronomical units as well? That sure would help.


According to my engine, pre-load and zero engine noise I am good to go with "no additional length required". This could be due to numerous things but point being I have proper pre-load, it was set properly and re-checked just recently.
===============
I believe that, now. At first glance it appeared you were guessing at numbers and didn't really understand the concept of the zero-lash point and what a freely spinning pushrod means. I see now you don't need any help in that area.


Originally Posted by Octania
you say it ran good first time out. changed ignition and now it is crap. based on that, something else changed due to the ignition swap."

that's what occurred to me in a glance at this opera.
Well if I knew what the something else was earlier I wouldn't be posting in here all week I would be out enjoying my nice ride Thus why I am posting in here to try and think of things I could have missed or possibly done incorrectly. To put the ignition swap as the problem to bed, I changed it all back to points and it didn't effect anything. Still same lack of power from where it should be.
==============
OK, that's all we were asking... undo the last thing "fixed" and see if that was the culprit, rather than go off in various other directions. In my experience, the last thing "fixed" is very often the cause of the current problem.



Originally Posted by Octania
Also, you can't "guess" at the engine vacuum. It's a crucial diagnostic tool; use the proper instrument and KNOW what it is.
Well sir I know how to properly check vacuum.
===================
OK then. That's not the impression I got in the cursory reading I had earlier. I heard "I guess the vacuum is about 15 but don't really know"... which is ludicrous.

I have checked it before this is WHY this cam was changed. My other thread I posted vacuum readings from the engine and we figured out the PO installed the wrong cam. I am pretty sure you read that thread cause I remember you posting in there AFTER I listed my proper vacuum readings.
===========
Meh, I don't remember that but then my memory sucks, and I post a lot of stuff in a lot of places.


That said point is, I am well aware of how to properly read and check vacuum. I have a pretty nice manual gauge and a super nice digital that does it for me.
==================
I bet it measures vacuum to the millionth of an inch of belly button lint too, right?
:-)

Creativeindy

If you didn't get that it means I didn't read anything past the first line. Why? Well because like you, your feeble attempt to quote in order to make yourself feel better by one upping someone was complete text garbage. Learn to quote dude so someone can actually understand your insults. That looks like one big cluster **** of garbage.

Also, my earlier response to you wasn't that deep bro. I was merely trying to reply to each and everyone of your statements. You come off as everyone is beneath you and if they don't have the same knowledge, do things as you like, or kiss your *** you try and make someone feel beneath you. Do yourself a favor before you have a seizure, develop tourette, or your head literally pops off and just stay out of the for help sections if anything anyone does offends you or isn't to your standards. Its obvious you have no notion to help anyone only to make someone feel like **** because there apparently not on your level when it comes to automotive issues.

Clearly someone responding to you that isn't kissing your *** threatens you and you felt the need to come in later after the issue was resolved and act like a complete jackass. Typical keyboard warrior on the loose folks watch out. You feel better now? You get it all out of your system?? The smiley face make you happy and tingly inside?? Hey folks, This Creative guy listed something in inches and not thousandths ZOMG, WTFOVER, HOLYWTFBBQ, MY HEAD IS GONNA IMPLODE, ITS LUDICROUS I TELL YOU, SIMPLY LUDICROUS, WERE GOING LUDICROUS SPEED!!!! ARGGGGNANNANNABLAHNANA

It's a good thing I don't revolve my life around making guys like you happy with how I measure, post or ask for help. I simply see the waste of space you occupy in this world, I shake my head and laugh.

If I was a betting man I would bet you could tune a carburetor and tickle your own ******* at the same time while measuring in thousandths how deep your finger is in there and how much vacuum will it take to pull it out while making sure it's in the correct format and that you scribed lines on your finger in a way that even though it's exactly 1/6th of an inch you will have it properly listed in thousandths so the people on this forum know that 0.0625 is actually 1/6th. Or for those that need the math you would make sure to include it such as 0.0625 = 625/10000 = 125 / 2000 = 25 / 400 = 5 / 80 = 1 / 16. Whew, it's a good thing we have guys like you around I tell ya. Your head probably would truly spin in circles if you had to do even a portion of the math I have to do every day when I sit and write code.

I guess when you get on my level and start talking about static semantics, abstract base class's, complex algorithm's, parsing process's, arithmetic operations, complex constructors, jquery, dynamic scoping, floating point's, CLR execution of complex instruction sets or enumerators, interop marshaling, sync services over tcp and **** like that I will get on your level and start talking in thousandths even though something is clearly a 16th, refer to everything as it's proper automotive name and make sure every thing is listed correctly such as 17hg for vacuums and such deal? I will also make sure if I ask a question I already know the answer. That way I never have to worry about keeping a record of what I have done or tried. If I already know the answer there would be no need for someone like you to post? Mmmk?

Moral of the story, go get laid, take some "more" pills, lay off the coffee, make sure to clean that finger you used earlier in this story or actually take a breath bro?.

P.S. It's a good thing I am not easily offended either or I would have just said kiss my ***, have a nice day and go to hell.

:-) :-) <--- They made me feel warm inside too... it's kinda nice feeling.

jread199

Glad to have read these posts, have the same exact problem with my 350. Will check my holley this evening. Did not think to.look because carb has 0 miles but is 3 years old. Not.to hijack post just glad to know i was not alone