citcapp

Ok so I am starting the new engine build that will go in the 48 Olds and I have a couple of questions for you high hp builders out there.

I aready have a good 70 toro block along with edelbrock heads roller rockers, performer intake, etc. I also have a balance and cross drilled forged steel crank. I plan on using Eagle H rods and JE SRP #206072 Pistons which ar -5cc flat tops. My question is about the crank, which is best the cast or the forged. I have read a lot about both and get conflicting information, some say that the nodular is better if you have it balanced because it doesn't flex like the steel crank. Others say use the steel, it is stronger and lighter and has less mass and is easier on the block main caps. Man this is all so confusing. The cam is another thing I haven't decided on yet. Vacuum won't be necessary on this car as it will have manual brakes. Maybe the performer manifold won't be the correct choice.

Opinions?

Olds64

Seems like you are really going to build a strong motor Pat. Why did you decide on the Performer? Oldsguy has a Torker on his 455 with big valve C heads and a UD Harold cam. You might want to consider a single plane intake manifold. Don't forget headers!

Jamesbo

Cool

Wish I could help but I'll stick to look'in fer waterfalls

citcapp

Haven't settled on the performer yet. Just happen to have a spare I picked up cheap. Still undecided, might even look into fuel injection. The crank issue is the confusion right now. Have to make up my mind soon as I am itching to get going on the build.

Yeah Jamsbo still can't find the waterfall and by the way did you fall of the turnip truck or did the bear push you

cutlassefi

IMO- I'd go with the PP Dual plane especially if you're thinking about going EFI. Crank? I'd save the forged for something more exotic and go with a nodular. I have one if you're interested or I'm sure you can find one elsewhere and more local. If you do go EFI don't let your cam grinder tell you need a wide lobe sep, that's only on OEM stuff. A good Aftermarket system will work just fine with a bunch of cam.

When it comes to crank twist, remember balancing can effect that too. Whether it's cast, forged, or nodular they all twist to some degree. Balancing them internally will help. Even though the weights on the ends are actually bringing them into balance, nonetheless that is still weight on the end, helping to cause flex and twist. Why do you think they drill or add weight on the ends? Not just for convenience. Drill a hole there vs the next counterweight in and you'll see how much more effect it makes on the balance.

rocket731

Concerning the crank selection, you need to decide based on the target power level you are hoping to achieve. Also you should consider if you are strictly going to race this vehicle or are you going to cruise it more than drag. The Olds cast crank should reasonably hold up well as long as its a cruiser. Don't forget Olds components, even the cast stuff is stronger than other makes. I've talked with Dick Miller about just such a dilemna and he has been racing these engines a long time and he convinced me that unless you are all out racing with an Olds you really don't need the steel crank. Of course If you're planning on using a Performer it sounds like you won't be dragging much. If it was me building a strong performer that will see limited track use I would use the cheaper crank, but that's just me. I'm not into the drag car scene much, to each his own.

Steve

citcapp

Well I have the steel crank just setting there might as well use it. As to what I am going to use the car for. Some street use some drag use. It already has a ford 9' with four link suspension and posi. so.........I want to put a lot of power to the ground 550 to 600hp sounds about right and I want to do it on all motor no power adders. Just old school. Won't drive it much just for fun after all I'm just a 63 year old kid with a little extra income and a desire to go really fast in a shot distance.

MI455

i'd go with the holley street dominator, i know it's a single plane but i'm making 610 ft. lb. and 552 hp so far off it. i need a bigger carb 'cause i'm still pulling 1.3-5 inches of vac. at 5500 rpm. i started with the torker but switched to the holley after my teacher told me it flowed better. i'm also using ported edelbrocks. i don't know how much torque i'd gain with a dual plane, but i know i'd lose hp. i'm making over 610 ft. lb. from 2500 to 5500, the etire pull, lol so don't fear the single plane! the 455 is such a torque monster anyway i don't think you'll mind losing a few ft.lbs. for the top end. as far as the crank is concerned i'm using a eagle cast steel one, stock stroke, but i woulden't be afraid to go with the nodular one. haha that forged one needs to go in a DX block!

64Rocket

Pat,
My thought is if you have the steel crank, use it. If you have a nodular crank also that would be my first choice. For what you are going to do with the car, the nodular crank will be more than enough. That is what I use and it has been there for 8 years. As for the steel crank you, you said it is balanced already. That is not true, for you have to balance with the pistons and rods, rings, bearings, lock rings you are going to use.
i would go with what "CutlassEFI" has suggested on the manifold. When I get the money togther, I'm going to go with his "EFI" setup.
The rear end set up you have is what they call a 4 bar setup. It is what most of the kit cars use. It is a good setup for the street car, not the best for drag racing. It will work and you will have fun when you go drag racing.
To reach the HP level you want you will need a pretty big cam. I think a hyd roller will work well for you. You will have to have some head porting done and with a roller cam you will need better valve springs and retainers. You will need push rods, 3/8 by the length you measure when you assy the engine. If you use 5/16 push rods you will have to change the guide plates on the E-brock heads.
E-mail me if you want more info.
Gene

hotrodpc

Hey CitCapp, I'm gonna borrow your thread here since its somewhat on topic. It would be my thought and opinion to use the Performer Manifold or any other performance dual plane intake. If BBO does not like high RPM, then why would you not want to make your power at bottom end and mid range and keep your RPM low as possible? Its my understading a dual plane manifold is going to give low and mid range power and suffer at higher RPM which you don't want to be doing anyway, and the Single plane is going to suffer at bottom end losing torque at the launch unless you have a very high stall converter. So it will not make peak power band until mid range and top end high RPM which is said to be bad for BBO. So wouldn't it make more sense to use a taller gear with lots of bottom end power than it would with a short gear ratio and high RPM? What kind of RPM are you planning or wanting to turn with your build Cit???

Oldsguy

I saw this yesterday when there were no replies and said to myself "self, just shut up because nobody knows how stupid you are, but if you open your mouth, there will be no doubt". From my limited experience, if you want old school you should avoid the EFI unless you have a novel way of concealing it.

hotrodpc

I agree Oldsguy, but at the same time too, sometimes you just get tired of the same old "Old School" carb type and want to experiment with the newer technology and mix it with old school technology and see the results. However, I do disagree about shutting up and not be making yourself look stupid. I'd think this is the place you want to be stupid so that you can be corrected with others experiences and knowledge. I am sure CitCapp wants your feedback too, so by shutting up in fear of looking stupid, in your own opinion, all you did was cheat him. Its OK with me, call me stupid here, but I won't find myself stupid at the track with antifreeze, oil, pistons and rods laying all over the track screwing up everyone else's fun while the track is being cleaned up if that makes sense, not to mention all the money and time I had just lost. But then again, sometimes it is fun to see those motors blow and parts go all over the track..... if its a Ford or Dodge, and especially if its ricer. Love seeing the ricers blow up, and shoot flames half track when they sqeeze it to hard.

Olds64

Pat, you could always use mechanical fuel injection. That is old school!

Run to Rund

The steel crank would bring good money, probably $700 on ebay or ROP. The cast crank is just fine for your use. The biggest thing you could do to make life easier on rods and bearings would be to reduce the pin and piston weight. Aftermarket forged pistons/SBC .927" pins can take 1/2 pound off each assembly, a huge amount, without sacrificing needed strength. Bush the rods for those pins, get pistons with snap ring retainers for full floating pins.

The only place the forged crank would make much difference is very high HP use, mostly found with boatloads of nitrous. That kind of stress from heavy nitrous use is very hard on the block which becomes the weak point, so is ill advised if durability is wanted.

citcapp

WOW!,

Lots of info to absorb and sort out. Guess I need to factor in everything disusssed above some good points have been made. I am using a tremec TKO-600 so need to factor that in as well no automatic for this car. I am already going with light weight pistons and H beam rods to keep the weight of the rotating assembly down. From what I have read here it seems like 5500 rpm is a reasonable goal. The Edelbrock heads have already been ported. I intend to use a hydraulic roller cam and lifters to gain a few more hp, haven't picked the spec yet, this is another research item on my list. I have followed the cam discussions in the big block forum and there are a lot of opinions on then as well so that is something else to figure out.

MI455

remember to do the usual oil mods if you're turning any kind of rpm

citcapp

Got the oiling system under control. Well be tearing down the toro engine this weekend, then off to the machine shop. I'ii post pictures and give details as I proceed from step to step

mugzilla

It seems that keeping rpms under 5500 is key ...

Also what tranny/rearend gear ..?

My 3.23 gear, turbo 400, '70 442 pulls through the 1/8 traps at 5500 rpms ...

1/8th mile racing would seem to reward light fast turning drivetrains ...

hotrodpc

Yep, seem to be my understanding and what I am going to have to do. I was wanting to build a 6500 RPM motor, but apparently BBO doesn't like that kind of RPM without emptying out your wallet. So now it appears I will keep the tall gears, and build it all bottom end and mid range torque. I prefer 1/4 mile racing. Don't see much point in 1/8 mile. Once you launch, your done.

mugzilla

F'n L.A. . It's all we have plus my gear is all wrong for the 1/4 mile. I work on cutting a fine light and hooking up so I'll be ready for real racing...

hotrodpc

F'n L.A.?? Is that as in Los Angeles? They still don't have a 1/4 mile track open to the public there? That's were I am from and grew up. Back in the 80's all we could do was illegal street race. I wish I could remember the names of street near downtown we raced on. In the Norwalk, La Mirada, Santa Fe Springs area, we used several. To name a few, Greenstone which was called " The Box" because it was a large L and the cops had to do was block both ends of the L and we were stuck. Luckily, they normally just ran us off from there. There was also Shoemaker and Phoebe (Feebee). Serveral others too around La Habra and Anaheim. Since Pomona shut down if you wanted a real track you had to go way south to Carlsbad.

380 Racer

1/8 mile racing is very exciting, especially at night. It is a great equilizer so a real fast car and a slow car don't have great distances to judge. The 1/8 is also much easier on parts. Two weeks ago we ran 1/4 mile with low 9.90s. On Sunday shortened to 1/8 because of rain and ran mid 6.20s. Both are very fun.

hotrodpc

I guess you are right about that 380. Better to get your doors blown by 2 car lengths rather than 10. I just think the part of racing is going fast, and you can't get going very fast in 1/8 mile. Although the launch is 2/3 the fun in drag racing.

Oldsguy

Point taken. And we are usually kind to each other when one of us does mis-speak or make a mistake. We need to exchange information and ideas but I am aware of my limitations and try hard not to speak too quickly before I have thought something out. Usually, after composing a reply I go back and read it for accuracy, sometimes I make corrections, sometimes I decide to not post at all. The tendency is to want to help a friend on the site with their problem and I find it so easy to just quickly compose a reply. At times those replies have had erroneous information in them.

Well, back to your car Pat. I think with the money, effort and time you are putting into your engine you should consider something out of the ordinary if you can do it right. EFI could be one of the options and you would surely reap the benefits it offers over a carb. I was just thinking of the car itself and how it will look in the end. The picture I get of a car like the one you or I have is one of two images. A Hot Rod with lots of go fast stuff on it regardless of the vintage, or an "era correct" car which would not have anything later than the period that car is trying to represent. I see a lot of cars representing the latter over at the HAMB. They are kind of nuts about that. If you car is going to eventually be finished to look really nice and perhaps show as well then lots of chrome, lots of tubing, lots of wires, lots of neat stuff would go and threrefore the EFI would fit right in. If you go that route it might be nice to at least try to conceal the electronics behind the firewall in the passenger compartment.

citcapp

I have been going to a lot of shows lately and looking at engine compartments. I will be hiding most every thing under the dash and running the wiring for the headlights along the frame rails as well as the battery in the trunk to keep the engine compartment clean. I am torn between EFI and dual 4 barrels on a high rise. I love the look of the dual 4 barrels and it will all fit under the hood of the 48. I am a Hamber as well I do tend to get stuck in the old school look.


"so little time and it just won't slow down"

hotrodpc

Ohhhh, I see your point CIT, I would sure be torn too. Either way would be awesome. I bet you stay on the fence about that one for awhile. Pro's and Con's, Con's and Pro's.

mugzilla

With a nice battery you could eliminate the alternator ...

I tried to hang at hamb and they seem a li'l occupied with what looks "correct"...

Oldsguy

That is my impression also. I still like visiting there though. There are some extremely skilled people there and I always enjoy the Friday Art post.

citcapp

I go to hamb to check out the metal work, there are lots of skilled body guys who do detailed metal work with lots of pictures and they explain how they do things. With the 48 I am going with shaved doors and several other rod details and hamb helps me with those things. But some on the site do get hung up on "correct"

Got the 455 toro motor torn down on Sunday. Sure is clean, no ridge at all. This will make a great build. Now to the machine shop to see if I need to bore or not, then I can order the pistons and H beam rods and finally get going with this build. While the engine is at the shop. I will start on the body work, sanding and filling, sanding and filling, etc.

citcapp

Did not realize how many stops and starts I have had along the way on the build for the 48 Olds. But now I am on a roll and no stopping until complete. Here are a few shots of the engine at the machine shop from today. Won't be long. The port work on the edelbock heads is almost complete. I am getting really excited, can't wait to do a test fit before I pull the body apart for the final prep work. More pictures will follow as progress is made. Once the engine is at home and test fitted, I will start posting in the major build thread

gearheads78

sweet!!

TripDeuces

I have to get my two cents in. The steel crank is heavy, much heavier than a nodular. I guess it all depends on what horsepower you're looking at. Under 600hp a nodular or steel is fine although the steel might have a negative in that it is heavy. Either will live at that HP level with the right bearing clearance.
What rpm are you looking at? Anything under 5500rpm and the dual plane is probably the way to go. Torque isn't going to be your problem so even going with a single plane would add more HP at the expense of torque. Runner length builds torque so the dual plane wins that. I think it all really depends on your goals.
Cams are a mixed bag. With a flat tappet something in the 225-235 range at .050 is fairly stout. Idle would be 800 - 1000rpm with decent power through 5500 - 6000rpm. Bigger engines can tolerate more came before they get rumpy. With a 468 a 230 would be a nice healthy street brawler. I had a cam in the 220 - 225 range doing 12.4 in a 70 Cutlass. Idled at 800rpm and would pull to 5500 all day. I had a Torker on it but I think a Performer would have been better. Well that's my two coppers for what it's worth.

Lady72nRob71

Wow - that thing looks great. Too bad you have to hide those shiney pistons with the heads...
Maybe by time I get around to WA, you will have this monster breathing!

citcapp

After consulting with my machinist I stuck with the nodular iron crank because it is 4 pound lighter, thus keeping the rotating mass as light as possible with the keith black pistons and eagle rods. The cam is a hydraulic roller 4-7 swap erson with erson roller lifters and harland sharp rockers. compression ration calc's out to 10.4:1. haven't decided on the intake yet or if I am going to go with fuel injection. Top rpm range will be around 5000-5500.

cam specs are

nonhog

You plan on taking that to Goodguys this year?
I'd love to see(and hear)that.

Jamesbo

Sounds like you're moving along Pat. Keep us posted

Oldsguy

Glad you have gotten your project back on track Pat. I hope you can get it all together for the spring, good luck!

cutlassefi

Hey Pat,

I'm finishing up a somewhat similar build, same compression but nearly stock Edelbrocks and a bit less of a roller cam (234/240 on a 108, .568/.580 lift), and it has a Torker and an 870 Holley. Should be dynoing it in the next ten days or so. I'll keep you posted.

Texas Jim

How can you go wrong w/ whatever you do w/ your '48? Whatever you do to it will be "fantastic looking" in the end and run like heck. I personally would go w/ the carbs, only because they're mechanical, and the old stuff is mechanical, it fits. But EFI would be the new w/i the old, which would also be great. How can you go wrong? No matter what anyone thinks, the car you build, in the end, is "you." When you drive that ride, you get in and are part of it and it's part of you, you're "one." You can't go wrong when "you" do the build. Good Luck! So far, so good, infact, GREAT!

geckonz08

sounds great Pat.
Waiting for the video of it on the track or street.
mike