bruno14ct

Hello everyone,


I have a 1972 Olds 442 W30. It has been having a recurring issue. When the car is cold it will fire right up. However, once I park it for a few minutes the story changes. If I try to start the car back up again it will either fight me or it won't start at all. I have heard that the location oft he exhaust crossover will cause fuel evaporation due to the heat generated in relation to the fuel lines. However, I am not sure there is any truth in this. Either way, it is very frustrating. Does anyone have any idea what could be the issue? Sorry in advance if this is a stupid question.

Octania

Not a stupid question to make your car work right.
Can we agree that it did not work like that when made?
Then, what is different?

I take it from the way you stated the issue that you know the difference between the starting system and the other items required such as fuel and ignition. Therefore, it sounds like you are saying the engine is turning over well but will not start.

is that correct?

bruno14ct

You're correct. I have a basic understanding of systems. What I can tell you is that the car will start. Once the car gets warmed up and is driven for any extended period of time, we'll say a half hour, it either does not want to start, or will not start.


The car is getting spark. I popped the hood and sprayed some starting fluid and it fired up. I hopped out to close the hood. Car died. Then would not start again.


But again, the car has no problem starting up when it is cold.

oldcutlass

Does it crank fine but won't start or does it not crank? Have you tried keeping the gas pedal floored while you crank? Is the carb dribbling fuel into the manifold when the engine is hot and off? Is the choke open all the way?

MDchanic

Does this car have a fuel return line? Could this be an actual case of vapor lock?

I'd probably try to check for flow from the fuel pump next.
If it had not started right up and then stalled, after the restart with starting fluid, I'd never suggest that right off, but in this case, vapor lock is a possibility.

If it was flooding due to a leaky float bowl, then the starting fluid shouldn't have helped (these things are also VERY HARD to flood).

It is was the run of the mill mysterious "fuel leakdown" or "float bowl evaporation," then it should not have stalled after restarting.

It IS cranking at a normal speed, right?
And, though the symptoms seem to point the other way, you do have the yellow wire connected from the starter motor R terminal to the Coil (+) terminal, right?

- Eric

joe_padavano

Before chasing things like vapor lock, how about basics?

Is the choke working properly?
Does the car have original points or an electronic ignition (the modules can have a heat-related issue)?
When the car won't start, is there spark? Do you get fuel from the accelerator pump jets when you move the throttle?
When was the last time the carb was rebuilt?

If this is a real W-30, it has fuel return. Of course, the 71-72 cars used the cannister filter with the fuel return line coming from the filter instead of the pump. If this was not replaced with a correct unit, the return may not be working.

bruno14ct

It will start, but when the car is cold. Once it warms up, it does not want to restart if I shut it off, or if I stop the car and put it in reverse or something it will sputter and die. Then not restart. I have tried keeping the pedal floored. In the past that would help. But it seems in the last few months this has gotten worse. The choke is open all the way. I have not been able to check the carb dribbling issue since it was getting dark last night and to be quite honest I have a very rudimentary understanding of carbs at this point and don't even know what to look for. Any help would be great.


The last time I had it in the shop on this issue they said it was the vacuum advance on the distributor. That was probably about a month and a half ago. Due to the fact this is still happening I'm inclined to think that's not the case.

joe_padavano

This tells me that the shop doesn't have a clue. Find a more competent shop.

bruno14ct

Choke is working. Points ignition,


There is spark.


This happened as the sun was going down. Fortunately it died in front of my house. So I haven't been able to really look into it. The carb has not been rebuilt in several years, and I think it may be due.


Good question on the whether it's a real W-30. Been trying to figure that out for a while now. I've been told conflicting things.


But I will check the return line. I am leaning towards the carb though because this has not always been an issue and we have had the car since 2009. So it is probably due for a rebuild.

joe_padavano

Well, whoever told you "confilicting things" also doesn't have a clue. The 1972 model year was the first year that Olds put the engine code in the VIN. If the fifth character of the VIN is the letter "X", it is real. If it is any other letter, it is a clone. The fact that you don't know for sure tells me that you probably did not pay enough for a real W-30 (the sale price would have been a tip-off), but let's hope I'm wrong.

oldcutlass

I would start with seeing if you have fuel and spark when it dies, that will give you a direction. I would also check my tune up specs and make sure everything is setup right. Dwell/ timing/ a/f and idle speed settings. Make sure all electrical connections in the distributor and at the coil are tight. Check the wire to your points and make sure its not chafed and grounding.

On the fuel side make sure your filter is clean and when you operate the throttle by hand you see 2 solid streams of fuel spraying into the carb with the engine off.

MDchanic

This is easy enough to test:
• Put timing light on engine.
• Start engine.
• Remove hose that goes to vacuum advance.
• Suck on hose.
• Watch advance.
If the timing advances as you increase suction, and doesn't leak back down, your advance unit is fine (though whether it is the right one for your engine is a different question - being the wrong one won't cause your current problem anyway).

- Eric

joe_padavano

^^^ My point. The vac advance isn't even working when you are starting the engine, as there isn't enough vacuum while cranking to make a difference. You can disconnect and plug the vac advance on any engine and it won't affect starting. The shop that said this is clueless.

Octania

Agreed. They might as well have said "It's yer Frammis Joint"

I have heard of coils failing to provide good spark only when hot.
Can you verify length of spark with an adjustable spark checker?
Both when cold and happy and when warm and rested and unstarting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/High-...item35db690249

When warm and rested, the choke should be open.
Moving the throttle should spray fuel into the venturis [beware of fire, not while cranking!]

When cold and the choke is set, holding the pedal to the floor should force the choke open a bit- perhaps 1/4 or more- this is the "choke unloader" and forces the carb to allow air in to counter excess fuel issue. This will obviously have no effect on a warm engine with an open choke. It is possible for cables to be out of whack or whatnot and the unloader to not work right.

You can also verify that the secondary throttle shaft is able to open all the way- it's down under the closed one that you can see at the aft side of the top of the carb.

halfmoontrail

VERY often the wire to the coil from the starter solenoid is missing, and will absolutely cause this problem. Everything seems fine, fuel is there, spark is there, cranking well. But, the coil isn't getting enough voltage (difference?) to provide a hot enough spark.


Very, very common problem with easy solutions: replace the wire or convert to HEI.
Steve

joe_padavano

It this were the case, the problem would be even worse when the car is cold and normally more difficult to start.

MDchanic

In general that may be true, but, as a data point, I had this with a high compression 350 (bad R terminal contact in the solenoid cap) and it would start fine when cold, but not start at all when hot (unless I jumpered the coil to the battery).

Now, by "cold," I mean down to the 50s or 60s - I'd suspect that 0° would be a different situation.

- Eric

bruno14ct

So I busted out the binder with the order sheet and determined it's a 442 but it's not a w30. Also went through the vin etc. Which is a bummer but whatever. I haven't been able to mess with the car for a couple days because I've been in trial all day and the battery is dead from cranking so I have to charge it. Once I get to it this weekend I will let you know what I can find.

MDchanic

As an aside, you should strenuously avoid leaving a run-down lead-acid automotive battery in a discharged state for any longer than is absolutely necessary.

Lead-acid batteries' life is determined by degree of discharge and length of time discharged (assuming no physical damage or use way outside of design parameters). That's why the battery in the car that you use every single day lasts a very long time, but you need a new lawn tractor battery every year.

So, if you run it down cranking, slap the charger on it immediately, unless there is a really good reason why you can't, and it will last much longer.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Well, since the 1972 cars don't have a unique VIN for the 442 (since it was demoted to an option package that year instead of being a separate model line), the fact that you have an order sheet to prove it's a real 442 is a good thing. These days there are far more 1972 "442s" on the street than Olds ever built.