grmchne78

How much can a Vista safely tow? Is 4,000 lbs too much to ask? If not what enhancements would be required (sway control/weight dist. hitch; obviously brake controler; air lift bags; big brakes, etc.)

Any recomendations would be appreciated.

I really want an old Airstream! But till then I have a line on another old camper.

Rickman48

Seeing your '69 specs answers 3 questions, but the rear ratio will make all the difference!
Do you know what's in there??

jaunty75

I would think so. A '69 Vista Cruiser weighs right around 4,000 lbs, which is the amount you want to tow. When I was looking to tow a vehicle once, I was told that the weight being towed shouldn't exceed 80% of the weight of the tow vehicle. If you go by that rule with your car, you wouldn't want to tow more than about 3,200 lbs.

2blu442

Years ago I saw a 1968 Vista Cruiser pulling a trailer with a 1968 442 on it. I thought that was way cool! But I don't know what kind of trailer hitch or trailer brakes he had. I made the mistake once of having a trailer load too heavy for the towing vehicle and believe my finger prints are still in the steering wheel No fun at all!!! John

jaunty75

The Vista weighs about 4,200 lbs and the 442 about 3,700 lbs. So the 442's weight is 88% of the Vista's. That's a bit over the rule of thumb I was told (by a U-Haul store, by the way), but probably not so bad that he was unsafe. On the other hand, there is also the weight of the trailer the 442 was ON that has to be included. He probably was over the line in terms of safety.

I think the main issue here is not what engine, transmission, or trailer hitch would be used, it's the relative weights of the tow vehicle and the towed load. You don't want to lose control in a sudden stop or going downhill or having to make a sudden maneuver to avoid something and end up in a ditch or worse.

Bluevista

The 350 Vista Cruiser is rated for class 2 towing - up to 3500 pounds.
The 455 equipped Vistas can tow up to 5000 pounds with the proper equipment.

My friend's grandfather bought a new '71 455 Ninety-Eight he used to tow a huge Airstream to Florida and back when he retired.
He lost it one day out on the interstate when it started fishtailing and rolled it, I saw pics of the trailer and you couldn't even tell what it was, it looked like a tornado hit it.

oldcutlass

Back before everyone had pick em up trucks, everyone who towed anything, boats, travel trailers, race cars, used the family car. The manufacturers were really conservative about what the cars will tow. I would think as long as you don't have a tremendous amount of tongue weight, proper hitch, and trailer brake controller, and tires rated for towing, you can tow the 4000#.

That rule of thumb everyone is talking about is absurd! It has nothing to do with the weight of the car vs trailer weight. There a 6 cylinder vehicles that weigh less and have far less power that can tow 4000#'s.

svnt442

My s10 weighs 4200 lbs (I had to weigh it when I moved to CA) and it has a class 3 hitch on it so make your conclusions from that. I think you'll be just fine with the vista if you install the correct (class 3) hitch on the car. The wheel base is long enough and it weighs enough to be stable. Just don't overload the tongue and you'll be fine.

rustyroger

That rule of thumb everyone is talking about is absurd! It has nothing to do with the weight of the car vs trailer weight. There a 6 cylinder vehicles that weigh less and have far less power that can tow 4000#'s.[/quote]

I don't agree with that at all, the semis hauling all over the nation have tiny power to weight ratios compared to the humblest of cars.
The point is safety, avoiding having the tail wagging the dog if you like.
Cars are equipped for towing as an afterthought, it isn't their primary function and there is a limit to how much weight they can safely deal with on a tow hitch. There is a limit for big trucks as well but they are designed for their purpose of hauling heavy trailers.
Some models are better at towing than apparently similar ones, a Vista Cruiser being a heavy rwd car should be one of the better ones, having a th400 helps, install a suitable trans cooler though.

jaunty75

It's interesting, but your wording here is almost exactly that found in the owner's manual for my '67 Delta 88. I looked in there to see what it said about towing cars, and after a lengthy paragraph about how cars aren't designed for towing, it says that if you want more info, write to Oldsmobile, Lansing, Michigan, for a booklet on trailer towing. It makes no mention of any specifics, such as the maximum weight that could be towed, type of hitch, or any other things to do to the car to get it ready for towing.


As one other data point, I once owned a 2005 Ford Freestyle crossover, and I looked up the towing info on it once because I was considering putting a hitch on it (to put a bike rack on, but I ended up reading about towing with the car in general). That vehicles weighs about 3,800 lbs, and the owner's manual says not to tow more than a 2,000 lb load with no more than a 200 lb tongue weight. Interesting in that 2,000 lbs is barely more than 50% of the Freestyle's weight.

Bluevista

A Freestyle is front wheel drive isn't it? Those and four wheel drives generally have a lot less towing capacity than a comparable rear wheel drive vehicle.

The Toronado is an exception, you can pull class 3 loads with those, put a hitch on the front and you could in reverse too.
Actually it's what you do to launch boats, makes it a lot easier to get up and down the ramp and manuever, plus it amazes people.
My '71 showroom brochure has almost a whole page on trailering?
Cars aren't designed for towing? An older full framed wagon or full size isn't much different than a pick-up truck and if it has a 455 it's more powerful than any pick up truck you could buy back then?
A Custom Cruiser towing a cabin cruiser is classy, they used to use one at the horse track to pull that huge steel starting gate all over the place so the horses wouldn't run into it on the way back too.



wel185.jpg

jaunty75

It came in both front-wheel and all-wheel drive versions. The owner's manual doesn't distinguish between the two in the towing recommendations.

Your trailering brochure is interesting. It does show that these Oldsmobiles could tow up to 5,000 lbs.

But it also shows the importance of other things. If you were planning to tow trailers, it was recommended that you beef up your car with heavy-duty cooling, heavy-duty suspension, and anti-spin differential. This doesn't mean that you couldn't tow trailers if your Olds didn't have these. Just recommendations to make the experience better and safer.

oldcutlass

I don't agree with that at all, the semis hauling all over the nation have tiny power to weight ratios compared to the humblest of cars.
The point is safety, avoiding having the tail wagging the dog if you like.
Cars are equipped for towing as an afterthought, it isn't their primary function and there is a limit to how much weight they can safely deal with on a tow hitch. There is a limit for big trucks as well but they are designed for their purpose of hauling heavy trailers.
Some models are better at towing than apparently similar ones, a Vista Cruiser being a heavy rwd car should be one of the better ones, having a th400 helps, install a suitable trans cooler though.[/quote]


Those semi's you refer to have trailer weights of 50-60,000 #'s which out weigh any rig by more than the rule of thumb mentioned in the previous threads. Pick-up generally have towing capacities that far exceed the weight of the truck.
Like I said in my earlier thread, most recreational towing from the 50's thru the early 70's was done with mom and dads grocery getter.

lshlsh2

My 85 custom crusier could tow 3500 with the 307. It wouldn't go very fast but it could tow it. The long wheel base and rwd make the most difference in my mind.
Larry

jaunty75

Did the owner's manual give this as the limit?

joe_padavano

My 1999 crewcab dually weighs about 7,000 lbs empty and is factory rated to tow a 10,000 trailer, which is 140% of the weight of the tow vehicle, so I'd say you were told incorrectly.

joe_padavano

Some of the 1977-1990 B-body wagons are rated to tow up to 5,000 lbs with the proper equipment. The considerations are brakes, engine, trans, hitch, and suspension. A Vista Cruiser is heavier than a later B-body wagon, but has smaller brakes. It does have a larger engine and usually a TH400 trans. Frankly, it has the same brakes as an S-10.

In the case of the B-body wagon, I suspect the limiting factor is the transmission. In the case of the Vista, it would be the brakes.

joe_padavano

Now go back and add in the weight of the trailer that the 442 was sitting on.

lshlsh2

[quote=jaunty75;259653]Did the owner's manual give this as the limit?[/quote


Up to 5000# when set up right. Never tried that much only about 2000#
Larry

grmchne78

Wow, thanks for all the input!

The Vista was a 400 car, I added the 350. I'm not sure what rear gear I have 2.56/2.78 maybe?? Right now all I have to tow is a pop-up, I want a 21/22 foot camper to replace the pop-up. I can make necessary changes to the car to make it a better tow vehicle. A receiver hitch is already present and welded in place. I have a buddy trying to talk me into a 6.2L diesel in front of the TH400 with about a 3.08 gear. That should "move" alot, the brake system, tow control etc, could be upgraded to improve upon things. The 6.2L could really help fuel mileage as well. What do you guys think?

What got me started thinking of this was the pics on the web of a '69 Vista towing a '67 Cuttlass/442 drag car.

rustyroger

I'd like to clarify my earlier post;
Semis are designed specifically to haul 40+ ton loads and the trailers they tow are built to work with them as well. Cars are primarily for carrying passengers, they can be used for towing but have limits
Auto makers are aware their vehicles may be used for towing, particularly full size pickups. Towing packages used to be an option - I guess it still is - which meant the car would be equipped with features like upgraded cooling sytems, heavy duty springs and tires as well as a tow hitch and light socket. I understand in Texas at least if a light truck is towing a trailer over a certain weight they are required to use a goose neck coupling.
I can think of two reasons for this, one being the weight is directly over the rear axle, the other that the pivot point is centered on a pivot point of the towing vehicle.

What makes a good tow car?, a heavy car will handle a given trailer weight better than a light one all else being equal, a powerful engine with lots of grunt helps a lot, rwd with a solid axle likewise. I think a Vista Cruiser ticks those boxes.
Over here cars towing anything have speed limit of 60 mph as opposed to our national limit of 70 and must stay out of the outer lane on a 3 or more lane highway, also a trailer over 560 lbs is required to have brakes. Do you have similar restrictions?.
I pull a 1700lb caravan with my 3800 powered '87 Olds 88, I have added a trans cooler otherwise it is unmodified. It seems oldsmobile didn't recommend them for towing at all but I take it easy and haven't had any problems, I get 20mpg towing as well - better than any British car I've used!.

Bluevista

You mean the Supercars Unlimited Cars?

joe_padavano

I think the 6.2 weighs a bunch more than an Olds V8. This will also require a lot of custom fab work. The 6.2 was not a big improvement over the Olds 5.7 diesel, either. Personally I'd go with a 455/TH400 combo, or an appropriately built 200-4R.

grmchne78

Yes, BlueVista that's the ones I was referring too.

There is already a '69 Vista out there on the web with a 6.2L that is getting +/- 30mpg!! That is what made the swap enticing. I personally do not care for a diesel, but the mileage stomps a gas engine.

The only 455 I have is in my play toy and it is not built for daily use (camshaft is really the only hinderance) but I do not want to dismantle that set up currently. I have a complete 403 that needs freshening if that would be a good candidate for the tow set up. For what it is worth the 350 is a good engine, just not a powerhouse. In my '78 it ran 9.50's in the 1/8th mile. The 455 was an immediate drop of a second to 8.50's.

joe_padavano

Well, if your motivation is financial, you'd better do a very complete cost estimate before starting. I suspect you'll have to drive a whole lot of miles to make back the swap costs in fuel savings.

jaunty75

If you read the rest of the post you quoted, you'll see that I did. Not a specific number, because I don't know what the trailer weighs, but I did note that it needs to be included.

jaunty75

Like many things, I think it all depends. Your dually is definitely not a typical consumer tow vehicle. With four wheels across the back, it's going to be more stable with a wider stance than a typical pickup truck with only two wheels in the rear.

But the weight thing definitely does depend. I got that 80% value when I called U-Haul to ask about getting a trailer to tow my 5,177 lb Custom Cruiser with my 5,540 lb Dodge Dakota. He told me that they wouldn't rent me anything because the weight of the towed load was too high. My guess is that this is some kind of internal U-Haul policy to protect themselves from being sued by people who attempt to tow too heavy of a load and get in an accident.

The owner's manual for my Dakota, though, does not give the same 140% of the vehicle weight limit that you have for your truck. There is an extensive table in the manual accounting for every possible engine, cab, and bed size, and, for my specific truck, the load limit is 4,950 lbs, which is 89% of the truck's weight (and definitely less than the weight of the Custom Cruiser, and that doesn't include the trailer the car sits on).

I looked in the owner's manual of the Custom Cruiser, and, like the manual for my '67 that I talked about earlier, it has a couple of paragraphs about how these are passenger cars and shouldn't be used for towing unless properly equipped, and then it gives an address in Lansing to write to for more information.


I DO have a 1973 trailering brochure put out by Oldsmobile very similar to what Bluevista posted a scan of earlier, and it goes on at length about the wonderful-ness of using Oldsmobiles for towing your trailer. It does say that, if properly equipped, 1973 Vista Cruisers can tow up to 6,000 lbs and that all of the full-size models can tow up to 7,000 lbs. But the key thing here is "properly equipped."

For example, to tow anything over 2,000 lbs with a Vista Cruiser, the brochure lists as "required" equipment the 455 engine, heavy-duty cooling system, and the 3.23-to-1 rear axle. To tow more than 3,000 lbs, also required is the heavy-duty suspension and an "equalizing load-level hitch (not offered by Oldsmobile)".

To tow more than 2,000 lbs with the big cars, the same engine, heavy-duty cooling, and rear axle are required, and dual exhausts are "recommended."

Of course, people can tow anything with anything, and they do. But this is what the books are saying. I think that if grmchne78 wants to tow anything with his Vista Cruiser, he should make sure that the car is properly equipped for the weight he wants to tow. You don't want to do damage to the engine, transmission, or brakes by asking them to do what they weren't designed to do, and you certainly wouldn't want to lose the load in slippery conditions or going down a hill and end up in a ditch with damaged or destroyed vehicles or worse.

joe_padavano

OK, but then the 88% number is obviously meaningless. A good car trailer is probably 1,000 lb minimum. My 10,000 gross trailer is 1,950 lbs empty.

joe_padavano

I would have thought the same thing, but the allowable trailer weight is the same 10,000 lbs with both the dually and the single wheel trucks in 1999. Note that this is for the old body style trucks, since that's what mine is.

I've found that rental places, particularly chains like U-Haul, are limited by their lawyers, not by the facts. I had one place refuse to rent me a lightweight aluminum car trailer for my 1970 Supreme with Class 3 hitch. They didn't care when I pointed out that my car had the same brakes, bigger engine, heavier duty trans, and more weight than an S-10, which WOULD have been an acceptable tow vehicle under their rules. I got the very strong impression that I was an idiot and they were professionals. DO NOT try this at home.

Idiocy like this is why I own my own trailer, my own tire machine (it's 4WD, we can only sell you four tires...), my own compressor and spray equipment, my own welding equipment, my own milling machine, etc, etc.

oldcutlass

Todays F350's w/373 gears can tow 21000#'s +/-!!!!!!!

Rocket Richard

I got interested in this idea of a conversion to Diesel and did a bit of number crunching. My numbers might not be realistic but here's what I got:

current US avg price of gas - $3.52/GAL
avg price of Diesel - $3.87/GAL

Fuel economy (guess):
Diesel - 30MPG
Gas - 20MPG

Fuel/cost for 1000 miles:
Diesel - 33.3 GAL, $129
Gas - 50 GAL, $176

$$ Savings for 1000 miles = $47

Cost of conversion to Diesel???? Not sure, but you would have to drive so many miles to break even on your investment on the conversion.

$4,000 investment = 85,000 miles to break even
$3,000 investment = 63,800 miles to break even
$2,000 investment = 42,600 miles to break even

-Rich

jaunty75

This is what I would question most. These are true today, but they might not be tomorrow.

There was an article in the paper in the last day or so about how people should NOT base any vehicle buying decisions on the current price of gasoline. It's high at the moment largely because of the unrest in the Middle East and North Africa, and there is beginning to be a bit of a rush toward Prius's and other small cars as a result, but the price of gas could easily fall back below $3.00 or even $2.50 per gallon in the next few months. In other words, the article said, buy that Prius because you really want a Prius, not because you think the current price of fuel will last. It might, but it might not. The long-term trend is certainly up, but there will be peaks and valleys along the way.

Your diesel conversion figures are based on the current prices of both fuels, which could change tomorrow, and you would be making a major investment in time and money that can't be reversed once spent.

Rocket Richard

Yeah I had that in mind too. I guess the better question is what will the differences in cost be between Diesel and gas in the future? And how much driving do you think you'll be doing? The numbers crunching is nothing conclusive, but still might help someone think about it more.

I remember looking at Prius' a while back and did some number crunching with fuel economy savings vs. the cost difference over a Matrix. With the amount of driving I was expecting to do it looked like it would take 7 years to break even.

Anyways, I kind of feel dirty even mentioning that I was considering a Prius. Since I started driving my Olds I feel like a changed man. Call it Olds therapy.

jaunty75

That's the typical conclusion. Until the prices of the hybrids drop down into a range similar to what a gasoline-engine car of the same size costs, the economic advantage to buying one just doesn't exist. But Toyota can get away with charging what it does for one because people buy them for reasons other than what's best for their wallet. There's the whole "feeling green" aspect of it. To me, the "green" I feel IS in my wallet, and the more of it in there I feel, the happier I am!

MDchanic

Don't look for a lot of "ooomph" from the 6.2.
When I tow a heavy trailer on a hilly road, it's pedal to the metal and 45mph.

Also, what on earth are so many people so worked up about regarding towing?
You get a good hitch, put it on your car, and tow.
Use a regular hitch for small trailers, a load-leveler for heavy trailers.
If it feels bad, go slower, and carry less of a load next time.
Be sure your electric break-away brake at least looks like it works - you can usually talk your way out of a "dead battery," but not out of a battery that looks older than the officer.
I've regularly towed 8,000 pounds with my 5,000 pound GMC 3/4 ton single-wheel, RWD pickup, as speeds over 80mph (whoops!), with no problems whatsoever.

It ain't rocket science...

- Eric

grmchne78

I do have access to a complete donor truck with a running 6.2L TH700R4 for $900.
The mileage difference may be more than the 30 diesel vs 20 gas. I suspect the gas combo is more like 13/14 on a good day.
I guess I am thinking the conversion could pay for itself sooner. BUT, I am still not sure it is worth doing. Just something to think about.

442_1972

In the following link, take a look at poncho37's comments related to towing a travel trailer with his '71 Vista. It is a good write up based on his experience with it.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...ght=Tow&page=2

Bluevista

That's a cool Vista.
26 feet is getting up there, the wind starts doing things.
I wouldn't pull anything over 20 feet, I like those little teardrop jobs.
Mine had an "H" hitch made out of heavy steel angle and a receiver hitch tubing center section. The thing was so heavy that when I took it off the car went up about 6 inches.
I scrapped it, probably made a Toyota out of it by now.

It was welded to the frame on the sides and across the rear brace, they welded it to the bumper brackets on one side too.
I went through about 20 Sawzall blades trying to cut it off without messing up the frame, I succeeded.
Excuse the spider nests and webs in the pic, first time I ever saw the car.
You can eat spiders off the underbody now it's so clean.

myvista026_640x480.jpg

455man

I've towed trucks with my 455 Cutlass Supreme and you could barely tell it was there. TH400 was beefed up some too. Probably easier on the car than a day at the track.

grmchne78

Yeah well.... I was really only thinking of a 18-21 footer. But now it likely does not matter. After 12 years with my current employer, my posisition was eliminated this morning. I won't be buying a camper anytime soon!