Start Me Up...If you Can - 55 Olds
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
Start Me Up...If you Can - 55 Olds
My 1955 S-88 “Driver” is set up with the original driveline – 324 with 4 barrel carb. Aside from the tappet noise and the occasional blue smoke display courtesy of the not-so-new valve stem seals, she runs strong and long…except: If she sits for more than 2 or 3 days, she doesn’t want to start unless I remove the air cleaner (oil bath = heavy & dirty) and prime with either ether or gasoline…then she’ll fire right up and run all day – if I leave it overnight, the next morning – two pumps and she’s running – if I leave 3 days – forget it.
Everything else being ok, what are the guesses? I’m thinking it’s a weak fuel pump that can’t “suction” well on just the RPM’s produced by the starter and / or the needle & seat is slowly draining the carb bowl after shut down..
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Everything else being ok, what are the guesses? I’m thinking it’s a weak fuel pump that can’t “suction” well on just the RPM’s produced by the starter and / or the needle & seat is slowly draining the carb bowl after shut down..
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Connoisseur d'Junque
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21,183
From: The Hudson Valley
I'd say fuel pump. It may not be "fixable," in that that may just be the way the fuel pump works in these cars.
A common fix is to install an electric fuel pump back by the tank, with a hidden pushbutton switch under the dash - you press the switch for a few seconds before starting, to fill the float bowl, then she starts right up. You can hear the tone of the pump change when the carb is full.
- Eric
A common fix is to install an electric fuel pump back by the tank, with a hidden pushbutton switch under the dash - you press the switch for a few seconds before starting, to fill the float bowl, then she starts right up. You can hear the tone of the pump change when the carb is full.
- Eric
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
Eric - thanks for the input - and I agree with you for the most part - I may try a new (rebuilt) pump and see what happens - I have to think that they didn't have to prime the carbs every 4 days back in the '50s...
then electric would be plan B...
then electric would be plan B...
I'd say fuel pump. It may not be "fixable," in that that may just be the way the fuel pump works in these cars.
A common fix is to install an electric fuel pump back by the tank, with a hidden pushbutton switch under the dash - you press the switch for a few seconds before starting, to fill the float bowl, then she starts right up. You can hear the tone of the pump change when the carb is full.
- Eric
A common fix is to install an electric fuel pump back by the tank, with a hidden pushbutton switch under the dash - you press the switch for a few seconds before starting, to fill the float bowl, then she starts right up. You can hear the tone of the pump change when the carb is full.
- Eric
Connoisseur d'Junque
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21,183
From: The Hudson Valley
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,743
From: Forest Ranch Ca.
Gorden before you pull the pump unhook it from the carb and check it for flow volume, see if it will fill 1/2 a coke bottle in about 15 seconds. This is not a definite test because pressure will not be present, but will tell you if the pump is lacking at start up' Also your carb may be leaking slowly down and becoming dry , have you cranked it for a extended time to see if it will eventually pick up fuel, if so it may be the carburetor. I know you have other cars it might be easier to swap carbs to check this problem if your fuel pump in fact does show some life...Just a few thoughts ..Tedd
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
My 56 does the same thing. I've wondered if the fuel pump was getting weak but haven't gotten around to checking it out.
Instead of trying to pour gas down the carb and risk washing down the cylinder walls there are plugs in the side of the carb bowls on mine to check the float level. I've been using a cheap syringe from the drug store to fill the primary bowl before attempting to start it. With the bowl full, it starts and runs just fine. The gas does a number on the cheap plastic syringe BTW.
Instead of trying to pour gas down the carb and risk washing down the cylinder walls there are plugs in the side of the carb bowls on mine to check the float level. I've been using a cheap syringe from the drug store to fill the primary bowl before attempting to start it. With the bowl full, it starts and runs just fine. The gas does a number on the cheap plastic syringe BTW.
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
hmmm..
wonder if you could rig something to be a permanent fitting to access the bowl - like the oilers they used to use on the old flat heads...
#idea
wonder if you could rig something to be a permanent fitting to access the bowl - like the oilers they used to use on the old flat heads...
#idea
My 56 does the same thing. I've wondered if the fuel pump was getting weak but haven't gotten around to checking it out.
Instead of trying to pour gas down the carb and risk washing down the cylinder walls there are plugs in the side of the carb bowls on mine to check the float level. I've been using a cheap syringe from the drug store to fill the primary bowl before attempting to start it. With the bowl full, it starts and runs just fine. The gas does a number on the cheap plastic syringe BTW.
Instead of trying to pour gas down the carb and risk washing down the cylinder walls there are plugs in the side of the carb bowls on mine to check the float level. I've been using a cheap syringe from the drug store to fill the primary bowl before attempting to start it. With the bowl full, it starts and runs just fine. The gas does a number on the cheap plastic syringe BTW.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
I don't know about that. It's a small hole in a thin wall with maybe 3 or 4 threads. I'd be afraid to hang much of anything on it.
God knows I've already messed up more than my share of things in my life.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
Fair enough. Over a couple of months it could even be evaporation.
But attempting to fill an empty bowl by cranking the starter never seems to happen for me. Plus I don't like grinding the starter that long. My newer stuff from the seventies cranks over a lot faster and has no problem filling an empty carb in short order.
Back to the question, are we looking at a weak pump, or is this normal for a fifties car? I've not put a pressure gauge on my pump to check pressure or volume at cranking RPM.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 530
Check your fuel line from the tank to the pump.If there are any places to suck in air like a piece of rubber line that is porus the pump will have a hard time pulling fuel. I remember on my 55 there is a threaded connection from the fuel sender to the fuel line ... see if it might need tightening . Also the diaphram in the fuel pump might be a little weak
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,057
From: Shorewood, Il.
It's probably the accelerator pump - dries out!
They come in a rebuild kit - can do it on the car, if you've a good back!!
The older ones were leather, new are rubber.
They come in a rebuild kit - can do it on the car, if you've a good back!!
The older ones were leather, new are rubber.
Last edited by Rickman48; Mar 6, 2012 at 06:26 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,743
From: Forest Ranch Ca.
If the accelerator pump was bad it would hesitate on acceleration and generally if a fuel pump is marginal the car will run it's self out of gas under a load. In my experience when a pump fails you lose a diaphragm and gas ether gets into the oil or around the outsider of the pump. My car does start hard after it sets for a couple days and I blame that on fuel leak down. I still recommend doing the coke bottle check and see how long it takes to get gas to the carb.... Tedd
PS let us know the outcome..
PS let us know the outcome..
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,918
From: SE Wisconsin
Your problem seems to be surfacing more and more. I know my rides require a whole lot of coaxing (pumping and cranking) to fire after their long winter nap. The reason, the carb fuel bowls are bone dry due to evaporation. Ethanol laced fuels evaporate at a far faster rate than good ol' gasoline.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 346
From: Maryland
Good luck ! For some reason this problem has recently started. I had the carb rebuilt this winter.
At least now I know other people are having the same issues.
Thanks
Rick
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
Many thanks for all the respective input:
My thoughts on the accelerator pump - no hesitation once it's running so I'm guessing that it's ok -
My thoughts on evaporation - yes, ethanol gas sucks (thanks "big government"), but after 2-3 days I have a problem...not weeks
My thoughts on air leaks in the fuel line:
I recently replaced the tank (this was happening prior as well) - all fittings are nice and tight and lines are good.
I think I'm going to replace the fuel pump since I have a new one on the shelf - if that doesn't solve the problem than at least I know I have another good fuel pump.
I'll also try WHIPOLDS' starting sequence (although I hate to crank these too long as well)
If these two don't work I'll try the accelerator pump.
If that doesn't work I'll do the Electric Pump.
If that doesn't work, anyone want a '55 Olds?
My thoughts on the accelerator pump - no hesitation once it's running so I'm guessing that it's ok -
My thoughts on evaporation - yes, ethanol gas sucks (thanks "big government"), but after 2-3 days I have a problem...not weeks
My thoughts on air leaks in the fuel line:
I recently replaced the tank (this was happening prior as well) - all fittings are nice and tight and lines are good.
I think I'm going to replace the fuel pump since I have a new one on the shelf - if that doesn't solve the problem than at least I know I have another good fuel pump.
I'll also try WHIPOLDS' starting sequence (although I hate to crank these too long as well)
If these two don't work I'll try the accelerator pump.
If that doesn't work I'll do the Electric Pump.
If that doesn't work, anyone want a '55 Olds?
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,743
From: Forest Ranch Ca.
Gorden sometimes the carburetor leaks down not because of evaporation but because of the little soft plugs( some are plugged with lead) at the bottom of the bowl leak, usually you can smell a little gas smell if your car is garaged with no air movement. This leak drops the fuel into the intake so it's not visible. I've seen this happen usually after a carburetor rebuild for some reason....Tedd
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
I guess I'm a little confused - I'm fairly handy and I've rebuilt a few carbs with an acceptable success rate - but I can't picture what plugs / holes we're talking about. What is/was their purpose?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
You'll find them on the bottom of the bowl when you remove the base plate. During manufacture they drill passageways and then seal the ends with soft metal plugs. They are normally gray and contrast with the bronze color of the bowl casting. Q-jets were really bad about leaking. Apply a coat of epoxy when you have things apart for a rebuild.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
I have no disagreement about reasons for the bowl to go dry.
When I took possession of the 56 there was a carb kit in the trunk and I used it. The accelerator pump works fine when there is fuel in the bowl to pump.
The issue for me is filling the bowl up when it is empty. I just don't like attempting to crank the starter for long periods. It's wear and tear on the starter and spinning an engine with little or no oil pressure. If a few spins pumped the bowl full it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't.
So I'll be interested to hear what Olds Dad finds if he tries the new pump that he has. At around $140 for a rebuild pump it's a bit pricey to just throw one at it to see what happens.
When I took possession of the 56 there was a carb kit in the trunk and I used it. The accelerator pump works fine when there is fuel in the bowl to pump.
The issue for me is filling the bowl up when it is empty. I just don't like attempting to crank the starter for long periods. It's wear and tear on the starter and spinning an engine with little or no oil pressure. If a few spins pumped the bowl full it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't.
So I'll be interested to hear what Olds Dad finds if he tries the new pump that he has. At around $140 for a rebuild pump it's a bit pricey to just throw one at it to see what happens.
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
Now I'm not sure - given the gasoline odor I get after shutdown (and for some time after as well), now I'm thinking that this leaking fuel bowl may be the issue.
I may pick up a kit and some epoxy, and pull off the carb and see what happens
I may pick up a kit and some epoxy, and pull off the carb and see what happens
Thread Starter
Collector of Stray 55's
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,023
From: RI
I agree - I guess if I solve the first, I don't need to solve the second. Arguably, replacing the pump is easier than the carb...
Given that my car-tinker time is not what it should be, an answer to this issue my be a few weeks away - I will post regardless of my actions / outcome (unless my actions result in an outcome of my premature demise
)
Given that my car-tinker time is not what it should be, an answer to this issue my be a few weeks away - I will post regardless of my actions / outcome (unless my actions result in an outcome of my premature demise
)
Connoisseur d'Junque
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21,183
From: The Hudson Valley
I don't know if there's an established "rule" on this, but if you are going to check out the plugs, I would use a volatile small-molecule solvent, like acetone, to do the checking - that way if there is a small leak, it'll be as easy as possible for you to see.
With the carb apart so that you can see the plugs, fill the bowl(s) [and at this point, I don't even know what kind of carb you've got - 2-Jet? 4-Jet? Something earlier?], then either place the carb up high so you can see the bottom and look for seepage, or place it on something absorbant and see if it leaves a damp spot after about 15 minutes.
This is why so many people just put in auxiliary electric pumps...
Good luck!
- Eric
With the carb apart so that you can see the plugs, fill the bowl(s) [and at this point, I don't even know what kind of carb you've got - 2-Jet? 4-Jet? Something earlier?], then either place the carb up high so you can see the bottom and look for seepage, or place it on something absorbant and see if it leaves a damp spot after about 15 minutes.
This is why so many people just put in auxiliary electric pumps...
Good luck!
- Eric
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
I think in your case it makes sense to check for leaky plugs in the carb first. You've detected some gas smell after parking in the garage. I couldn't tell because my 56 set outside under a cover for several years before I got the second garage built. I don't expect mine to hold gas after setting for long durations like it often does.
Just an idea here. Before you open up the carb, you might try just removing it and setting it on a paper shop towel while it's still full of gas and see if it makes a wet spot.
I have a feeling that's what I'm going to end up doing at some point. It's sounding like it's a common enough problem that I don't have an isolated case of a weak pump.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,743
From: Forest Ranch Ca.
Not to beat this thread to death but my theory on the plugs is that when the carburetor is cleaned for a rebuild the cleaner attacks the thin lead plug sealer ( sodium hydroxide and like caustics will do this). The plugs look fresh and clean but a small amount of lead has been dissolved and this is enough to allow fuel to weep into the intake, thus the gas smell. This also may happen from heat and cold expansion contraction and after 50 years the bond in the seal just gives it up.Thats my thoughts on it anyway, but your mileage may vary..Tedd
Railroad Mike
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 115
From: 1248 Riverwood Drive. Nashville, Tn. 37216
hard start
Many thanks for all the respective input:
My '55 did the same thing. Ran great, but wouldn't start. Remove the air cleaner and look at the squirters in the carb. while operating the throttle. Mine(after rebuild, soaking in cleaner, blowing with air) still wouldn't start. The squirters had some foreign object in them. Cleaned out and GOOD TO GO! I went through all the other ideas: fuel pump, fuel lines floats, etc.) Cost nothing and takes only minutes to check!
My thoughts on the accelerator pump - no hesitation once it's running so I'm guessing that it's ok -
My thoughts on evaporation - yes, ethanol gas sucks (thanks "big government"), but after 2-3 days I have a problem...not weeks
My thoughts on air leaks in the fuel line:
I recently replaced the tank (this was happening prior as well) - all fittings are nice and tight and lines are good.
I think I'm going to replace the fuel pump since I have a new one on the shelf - if that doesn't solve the problem than at least I know I have another good fuel pump.
I'll also try WHIPOLDS' starting sequence (although I hate to crank these too long as well)
If these two don't work I'll try the accelerator pump.
If that doesn't work I'll do the Electric Pump.
If that doesn't work, anyone want a '55 Olds?
My '55 did the same thing. Ran great, but wouldn't start. Remove the air cleaner and look at the squirters in the carb. while operating the throttle. Mine(after rebuild, soaking in cleaner, blowing with air) still wouldn't start. The squirters had some foreign object in them. Cleaned out and GOOD TO GO! I went through all the other ideas: fuel pump, fuel lines floats, etc.) Cost nothing and takes only minutes to check!
My thoughts on the accelerator pump - no hesitation once it's running so I'm guessing that it's ok -
My thoughts on evaporation - yes, ethanol gas sucks (thanks "big government"), but after 2-3 days I have a problem...not weeks
My thoughts on air leaks in the fuel line:
I recently replaced the tank (this was happening prior as well) - all fittings are nice and tight and lines are good.
I think I'm going to replace the fuel pump since I have a new one on the shelf - if that doesn't solve the problem than at least I know I have another good fuel pump.
I'll also try WHIPOLDS' starting sequence (although I hate to crank these too long as well)
If these two don't work I'll try the accelerator pump.
If that doesn't work I'll do the Electric Pump.
If that doesn't work, anyone want a '55 Olds?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 129
From: Nanaimo BC Canada
the '56 that I gave to my folks did the same thing. I had rebuilt the carb myself and checked for leaks and found none. Dad installed an anti drain back valve on the fuel line going into the fuel pump and now the car can sit for weeks and fire right up.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,743
From: Forest Ranch Ca.
But this would not explain the gas smell that Olds Dad is experiencing which denotes a carburetor leaks down. ...Tedd
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
That's interesting. Was it some kind of stand alone valve or part of an aftermarket inline filter like this Edelbrock unit?
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/tech_center/install/8000/8873.pdf
I think there is an anti drain back valve in some electric fuel pumps too.
I also think there is a valve in the newer paper cartridge style filters. I wonder if there is a replacement cartridge to replace the rock type filter in the old 4GC on those cars? That would be simple, cheap and worth doing even if it isn't the only problem.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 129
From: Nanaimo BC Canada
That's interesting. Was it some kind of stand alone valve or part of an aftermarket inline filter like this Edelbrock unit?
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/tech_center/install/8000/8873.pdf
I think there is an anti drain back valve in some electric fuel pumps too.
I also think there is a valve in the newer paper cartridge style filters. I wonder if there is a replacement cartridge to replace the rock type filter in the old 4GC on those cars? That would be simple, cheap and worth doing even if it isn't the only problem.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/misc/tech_center/install/8000/8873.pdf
I think there is an anti drain back valve in some electric fuel pumps too.
I also think there is a valve in the newer paper cartridge style filters. I wonder if there is a replacement cartridge to replace the rock type filter in the old 4GC on those cars? That would be simple, cheap and worth doing even if it isn't the only problem.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/7006...Way-Valve.html
Last edited by jaymann; Mar 19, 2012 at 09:27 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
From: Colorado
it was a valve something like this one: (It didn't come from there, but it's the same idea)
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/7006...Way-Valve.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/7006...Way-Valve.html
Thanks Jaymann!
Railroad Mike
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 115
From: 1248 Riverwood Drive. Nashville, Tn. 37216
hard starting
My 1955 S-88 “Driver” is set up with the original driveline – 324 with 4 barrel carb. Aside from the tappet noise and the occasional blue smoke display courtesy of the not-so-new valve stem seals, she runs strong and long…except: If she sits for more than 2 or 3 days, she doesn’t want to start unless I remove the air cleaner (oil bath = heavy & dirty) and prime with either ether or gasoline…then she’ll fire right up and run all day – if I leave it overnight, the next morning – two pumps and she’s running – if I leave 3 days – forget it.
Everything else being ok, what are the guesses? I’m thinking it’s a weak fuel pump that can’t “suction” well on just the RPM’s produced by the starter and / or the needle & seat is slowly draining the carb bowl after shut down..
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Everything else being ok, what are the guesses? I’m thinking it’s a weak fuel pump that can’t “suction” well on just the RPM’s produced by the starter and / or the needle & seat is slowly draining the carb bowl after shut down..
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,918
From: SE Wisconsin
The only permanent way around it is to install an auxiliary electric fuel pump, it seems.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 142
From: Maryland outside the beltway
FWIW, the mention of bottom end carb leaks sounds like a problem found with many 67 Camaros, where there was a "hot slot" in the intake to warm the carb quickly. Many ended up causing lower carb leaks over time and presented a fire hazard. I can't recall the design on the 55 Olds intake and if they had a similar hot channel, but here's a link to discussion and fixes on a Camaro site I frequent:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9142.0
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9142.0
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 219
From: Orange County, CA
My 55 has the 2gc... It used to have this problem. I never really thought much of it... Sometimes It would require starting fluid. Since getting it professionally rebuilt, even after sitting for a couple weeks it just takes a step on the pedal to fire right up. I also went through 4 rebuild kits trying to make it right; it had a bogging problem. All of the problems are finally gone.
