1966 Cutlass 2004R swap
September 13th, 2018, 05:32 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Posts: 59
1966 Cutlass 2004R swap
My Cutlass has the switch pitch 2 speed and I have the 2004R that is rebuilt and ready to install. What all do I need to do as far as the cross member moving and emergency brake cable go?
September 13th, 2018, 06:38 AM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 158
Moving the cross member back is pretty straight forward. Not sure if the frame has the holes but they are a drill and some effort away. Also not sure on the 2004r bolting up to the engine but that can be overcome with an adapter plate and some converter shims.
The most important part of the swap is getting the tv cable installed and adjusted correctly. If you don't the pressure rise in the trans will not be correct and the trans will suffer.
www.tvmadeez.com has a couple good articles on the how and why of the tv cable.
www.phoenixtrans.com/faqs/ has some info on the tv cable and its setup.
from their site:
The Skinny on TV cable Adjustment
First a bit of history, the Throttle Valve or TV system for transmission pressure control has been around since GM introduced the Hydramatic transmission before World War II nearly 70 years ago. These early systems used a collection of rods and clevises to connect the accelerator linkage to the transmission and required skill, and patience to adjust as well as some special tools. GM continued to use this type of system as did both Ford and Chrysler until the 1970’s when a cable system was adopted. The more “modern” variants of this system have been in place since the 1976 introduction of the TH-200 transmission. Mercifully, GM did away with the complex linkage and provided us with a simple cable system which stayed in use till 1993 when the General phased out tv controls all together for fully computerized transmissions.
Understanding TV operation:
Basically, the TV system provides the transmission with pressure increase proportionate to throttle opening. Why is this important you ask? Well, when you are cruising around slowly or gently accelerating you want the transmission to shift smoothly and keep the engine at a practical and efficient rpm. But, when you want to accelerate quickly you want the transmission to keep the engine in a higher rpm range where it makes more power. Under this scenario the transmission needs increased pressure to apply the bands and clutches and keep them from slipping under the demands of increased power and acceleration. A modern TV system uses a cable which runs from the accelerator linkage to an internal transmission linkage that depresses a plunger in the valve body to regulate tv pressure so that transmission line pressure matches acceleration demand.
Cable setting basics:
All GM transmission requiring a tv cable use the same basic range of adjustment. From idle to wide open throttle , about 1 1/8 inches of cable are pulled, and at wide open throttle the cable is as tight as it can be without limiting throttle travel. The cable is pulled in a straight line from idle to wide open throttle to correctly keep transmission line pressure rise in harmony with throttle opening insuring accurate shift points, shift firmness and kickdown response. No matter what kind of cable system you are using, you should always verify that you have the correct range of throttle cable travel and that it is as tight as it can be at wide open throttle. If you have these two parameters in place then you will have successfully adjusted your cable and your transmission will operate as designed.
Due to the very wide variety of carburetor and fuel injection systems it is impossible to design a cable that will work with every model and application. However, if you follow the principles set forth in the previous paragraph then it is possible to simply and correctly adjust a tv cable for any application. If you are using a Chevrolet style Quadra jet these have the ideal ratio already designed into the linkage. In fact, nearly any Chevy carb used on a small block application from the late 60’s on up to the late 80’s will have the correct linkage. In these instances, you can use the factory style tv cable and bracketry to install and adjust your cable. These brackets may have been bolted to either the intake or the carb flange and routed the tv cable in a straight line with the attaching point at the carb linkage. If the factory style linkage cannot be located, Holley sells a nice replacement bracket under part number 20-95 that not only holds a factory style tv cable but also most GM throttle cables as well. For those with a Holley, Barry Grant or AFB style carb from Edelbrock or Carter, things get a little trickier since these do not have the proper geometry for proper tv cable operation and may pull out too much or not enough cable and at the wrong rate.
Phoenix Transmission Products of Weatherford Texas, has developed individual brackets to correct these tv problems on these carbs, allowing simple and precise adjustment without special tools or gauges just as in a factory installed application. These levers simply bolt on to the carb linkage with supplied hardware and give perfect TV geometry to aftermarket carburetors not designed for tv control systems. The levers can be used with stock style tv cables or aftermarket cables such as those made by Lokar or others. The important thing to remember is to keep the cable running in a straight line with the cables attaching point at the carb linkage for best results.
In the event that you have some other type of carb or injection that does not have a provision for a tv cable, fear not. The simple rules for cable travel and adjustment still apply. You may need to get creative but you can still achieve perfect tv geometry with any setup. Find a place on your linkage system that has the correct amount of travel, which is about 1 1/8 inches, then make a secure mount for the tv cable and make your adjustment. You can even run a Lokar style cable back through the firewall and connect it to the accelerator linkage inside the vehicle as GM did on some of it’s models in the 1960’s and 70’s. This also is a discreet way to hide the fact that you are running an overdrive transmission on an otherwise stock appearing restoration.
Regardless of the fuel system you chose, you will always get the desired results if you have the correct amount of travel and the cable is as tight as it can be at wide open throttle. It is just that simple.
I am looking forward to updates on your project. Take plenty of pix.
The most important part of the swap is getting the tv cable installed and adjusted correctly. If you don't the pressure rise in the trans will not be correct and the trans will suffer.
www.tvmadeez.com has a couple good articles on the how and why of the tv cable.
www.phoenixtrans.com/faqs/ has some info on the tv cable and its setup.
from their site:
The Skinny on TV cable Adjustment
First a bit of history, the Throttle Valve or TV system for transmission pressure control has been around since GM introduced the Hydramatic transmission before World War II nearly 70 years ago. These early systems used a collection of rods and clevises to connect the accelerator linkage to the transmission and required skill, and patience to adjust as well as some special tools. GM continued to use this type of system as did both Ford and Chrysler until the 1970’s when a cable system was adopted. The more “modern” variants of this system have been in place since the 1976 introduction of the TH-200 transmission. Mercifully, GM did away with the complex linkage and provided us with a simple cable system which stayed in use till 1993 when the General phased out tv controls all together for fully computerized transmissions.
Understanding TV operation:
Basically, the TV system provides the transmission with pressure increase proportionate to throttle opening. Why is this important you ask? Well, when you are cruising around slowly or gently accelerating you want the transmission to shift smoothly and keep the engine at a practical and efficient rpm. But, when you want to accelerate quickly you want the transmission to keep the engine in a higher rpm range where it makes more power. Under this scenario the transmission needs increased pressure to apply the bands and clutches and keep them from slipping under the demands of increased power and acceleration. A modern TV system uses a cable which runs from the accelerator linkage to an internal transmission linkage that depresses a plunger in the valve body to regulate tv pressure so that transmission line pressure matches acceleration demand.
Cable setting basics:
All GM transmission requiring a tv cable use the same basic range of adjustment. From idle to wide open throttle , about 1 1/8 inches of cable are pulled, and at wide open throttle the cable is as tight as it can be without limiting throttle travel. The cable is pulled in a straight line from idle to wide open throttle to correctly keep transmission line pressure rise in harmony with throttle opening insuring accurate shift points, shift firmness and kickdown response. No matter what kind of cable system you are using, you should always verify that you have the correct range of throttle cable travel and that it is as tight as it can be at wide open throttle. If you have these two parameters in place then you will have successfully adjusted your cable and your transmission will operate as designed.
Due to the very wide variety of carburetor and fuel injection systems it is impossible to design a cable that will work with every model and application. However, if you follow the principles set forth in the previous paragraph then it is possible to simply and correctly adjust a tv cable for any application. If you are using a Chevrolet style Quadra jet these have the ideal ratio already designed into the linkage. In fact, nearly any Chevy carb used on a small block application from the late 60’s on up to the late 80’s will have the correct linkage. In these instances, you can use the factory style tv cable and bracketry to install and adjust your cable. These brackets may have been bolted to either the intake or the carb flange and routed the tv cable in a straight line with the attaching point at the carb linkage. If the factory style linkage cannot be located, Holley sells a nice replacement bracket under part number 20-95 that not only holds a factory style tv cable but also most GM throttle cables as well. For those with a Holley, Barry Grant or AFB style carb from Edelbrock or Carter, things get a little trickier since these do not have the proper geometry for proper tv cable operation and may pull out too much or not enough cable and at the wrong rate.
Phoenix Transmission Products of Weatherford Texas, has developed individual brackets to correct these tv problems on these carbs, allowing simple and precise adjustment without special tools or gauges just as in a factory installed application. These levers simply bolt on to the carb linkage with supplied hardware and give perfect TV geometry to aftermarket carburetors not designed for tv control systems. The levers can be used with stock style tv cables or aftermarket cables such as those made by Lokar or others. The important thing to remember is to keep the cable running in a straight line with the cables attaching point at the carb linkage for best results.
In the event that you have some other type of carb or injection that does not have a provision for a tv cable, fear not. The simple rules for cable travel and adjustment still apply. You may need to get creative but you can still achieve perfect tv geometry with any setup. Find a place on your linkage system that has the correct amount of travel, which is about 1 1/8 inches, then make a secure mount for the tv cable and make your adjustment. You can even run a Lokar style cable back through the firewall and connect it to the accelerator linkage inside the vehicle as GM did on some of it’s models in the 1960’s and 70’s. This also is a discreet way to hide the fact that you are running an overdrive transmission on an otherwise stock appearing restoration.
Regardless of the fuel system you chose, you will always get the desired results if you have the correct amount of travel and the cable is as tight as it can be at wide open throttle. It is just that simple.
I am looking forward to updates on your project. Take plenty of pix.
September 13th, 2018, 06:52 AM
#3
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,311
A few things.
First, the 200-4R uses the same crossmember location as the TH400. Unfortunately, the TH400 was not offered in the 1966 A-body line, so the frame will not be drilled for it. If you have an open channel frame, that's a simple matter of drilling four holes (being careful not to accidentally puncture a brake or fuel line). If you have a boxed frame (convertible, Vista, or HD frame option), you need to weld an extension onto the tabs that the crossmember bolts to. This is what the factory did for the 1967 model year. The good news is that the overall length of the 200-4R is exactly the same as that of your Jetaway, so your original driveshaft can be used as-is.
Second, since the crossmember moves and the e-brake cables hang off the crossmember, you need to swap out the front and intermediate cables. Get the cables for a 1967 442 with TH400. These are available from RockAuto and many other auto parts sources.
Third, obviously your shifter will only access OD and D. If you have a floor shifter, you can get a conversion kit from Shiftworks to make it a four speed shifter. If you have a column shifter, you're pretty much out of luck.
Fourth, you'll want to wire up some sort of converter lockup control. This can be as simply as a toggle switch or as complex as an aftermarket electronic controller. Your call. I strongly suggest that whatever you do, wire a brake pedal switch in series so that the lockup power is cut when you step on the brakes. This not only will save the trans at stop lights, it also lessens the "push" from the drivetrain in a panic stop situation.
Finally, the 200-4R is very sensitive to heat. Use a good external trans cooler.
First, the 200-4R uses the same crossmember location as the TH400. Unfortunately, the TH400 was not offered in the 1966 A-body line, so the frame will not be drilled for it. If you have an open channel frame, that's a simple matter of drilling four holes (being careful not to accidentally puncture a brake or fuel line). If you have a boxed frame (convertible, Vista, or HD frame option), you need to weld an extension onto the tabs that the crossmember bolts to. This is what the factory did for the 1967 model year. The good news is that the overall length of the 200-4R is exactly the same as that of your Jetaway, so your original driveshaft can be used as-is.
Second, since the crossmember moves and the e-brake cables hang off the crossmember, you need to swap out the front and intermediate cables. Get the cables for a 1967 442 with TH400. These are available from RockAuto and many other auto parts sources.
Third, obviously your shifter will only access OD and D. If you have a floor shifter, you can get a conversion kit from Shiftworks to make it a four speed shifter. If you have a column shifter, you're pretty much out of luck.
Fourth, you'll want to wire up some sort of converter lockup control. This can be as simply as a toggle switch or as complex as an aftermarket electronic controller. Your call. I strongly suggest that whatever you do, wire a brake pedal switch in series so that the lockup power is cut when you step on the brakes. This not only will save the trans at stop lights, it also lessens the "push" from the drivetrain in a panic stop situation.
Finally, the 200-4R is very sensitive to heat. Use a good external trans cooler.
September 13th, 2018, 11:54 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 1,195
That's not true, my car is living proof.
I used a Kugel shift linkage kit to change the ratio between the column and the transmission lever. Since the 2004R's shift lever rotates further from P to L1 than the Jetaway does from P to L, this kit changes the ratio between the levers so that your column lever moves the same distance as previously (although, my '68 column lever would go way past L when disconnected from the trans). The trick is to get the ratio (and offset) just right so that P and N are in the same positions as before so that your neutral safety switch still works as intended. This also gets the "safety gates" in the column lever to line up as before between N and R, and between R and P. Yes, the PRNDL indicator won't be lined up accurately (it's short 2 positions as it is), but its function is fine and you can still count the detents between gears to know what gear you are in.
The other advantage of the Kugel kit is that it removes the extra arm between the frame and transmission, leaving more room for headers.
There's more detail on my swap in the thread linked in my sig.
I used a Kugel shift linkage kit to change the ratio between the column and the transmission lever. Since the 2004R's shift lever rotates further from P to L1 than the Jetaway does from P to L, this kit changes the ratio between the levers so that your column lever moves the same distance as previously (although, my '68 column lever would go way past L when disconnected from the trans). The trick is to get the ratio (and offset) just right so that P and N are in the same positions as before so that your neutral safety switch still works as intended. This also gets the "safety gates" in the column lever to line up as before between N and R, and between R and P. Yes, the PRNDL indicator won't be lined up accurately (it's short 2 positions as it is), but its function is fine and you can still count the detents between gears to know what gear you are in.
The other advantage of the Kugel kit is that it removes the extra arm between the frame and transmission, leaving more room for headers.
There's more detail on my swap in the thread linked in my sig.
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; September 13th, 2018 at 01:03 PM.
November 18th, 2018, 06:31 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Posts: 59
Thanks for all the advice on this and sorry for the late reply. The car is going in to the shop within the next couple of days for the trans swap and a few other things. I am keeping the Switch Pitch and the rest of the original parts in case I were to ever sell the car. I will get some photos of all the work that will be done and post it in the major projects section as things progress. I will finally get to build the car to what I want it to be and still have the classic look but have it handle and drive like a newer car. 6.0 LQ4 bored 30 over and 10.5:1 compression, built 2004R, coilovers and four wheel disc brake conversion.
November 19th, 2018, 01:20 PM
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
Thanks for all the advice on this and sorry for the late reply. The car is going in to the shop within the next couple of days for the trans swap and a few other things. I am keeping the Switch Pitch and the rest of the original parts in case I were to ever sell the car. I will get some photos of all the work that will be done and post it in the major projects section as things progress. I will finally get to build the car to what I want it to be and still have the classic look but have it handle and drive like a newer car. 6.0 LQ4 bored 30 over and 10.5:1 compression, built 2004R, coilovers and four wheel disc brake conversion.
November 19th, 2018, 02:46 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Posts: 59
Yes, the transmission was professionally built with the engine's power taken into account. It does have the deeper pan on it and the electronics have been deleted and just runs with the tv cable. I have a Lokar adapter for the column shift linkage, trying to keep the car look stock from outward appearances as well. I have taken the car to a local shop that specializes in custom work and is a certified Shelby shop so it think it will be in good hands. When I get the car back in a few months, I will be boxing in sections of the frame and adding additional bracing.
November 19th, 2018, 02:58 PM
#8
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
Posts: 3,114
X2-JohhnyBS68S- The Kugal shift kits works. I put mine on the 64 F-85 without issues, but decided to go more Pro-Touring and put a B@M Bandit floor shifter to the 200-R4. If anybody needs the Kugal shift, it's bagged and sitting on the shelf in the shop.Mike send us some pictures.
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