442MIKE

Looking for someone who has successfully installed a TH200r4 to a 455 . I have a 1972 442 w/ 455 th400 3:42 . Travel to many shows 1-3 hrs in Florida and could really used that overdrive gear. Gas $ killing me as well as the RPMs . I have heard also that Shiftworks makes a kit for my Dual-Gate. What needs to be beefed up in th200r4 to be strong enough ? Thanks

Professur

You mean the 200-4r. The th200 is a 3 speed. You need to take into account your entire drivetrain as a system. I bought a 200-4r to replace my 200c in my 85 parisienne, only to discover that, thanks to the steep rear end it came with, I couldn't even get into 4th at regular highway speeds.

Allan R

Welcome aboard Mike. Is your car an original U code production?
The TH200 isn't strong enough for your engine, but as noted the 200 4R is. It has basically the same gear ratios your TH400 has for the first 3 gears, but the OD gear drops to .67:1 for that highway economy you're looking for. You still won't get fantastic mileage, but it will be a lot better than what you have now. You'd also need to install a TV cable and mounting bracket. If the TV cable is not setup properly, you could easily wreck the TH200 4R in short order.

The other alternative would be to change your gears to something that balances performance and economy like a. Set of 3.08:1 gears.

mfgusa

... and if your still there Mike, it is an awesome set up and fairly easy to do! My only problem is my gas mileage didn't increase as much as I would have expected, like Alan said, but the RPMs dropped considerably increasing the engines longevity. Now I cruise hundreds of miles to events rather than just the local ones with a 3:91 gear set. All the ***** with cruising rpms on the highway. Unbeatable.

Been driving it for 3 years now with nary a problem.

rustyroger

I didn't think a 200r4 would live with big block torque for long unless it was beefed up somewhat.
The only way a 455 won't eat gas is if you put the car on a recovery truck......


Roger.

Professur

Right on both counts ... but it honestly makes little sense to put a 200-4r in stock form behind anything. GM really did that trans a disservice. Just a little work makes it so much stronger. There's no reason for them to have the GN 200-4r, and a weaker one for everything else. And the 455 will still eat you out of house and home ... but at least with a 4th gear (with lockup, almost a fifth) You'll still have a little cash left to feed yourself.

442MIKE

does driveshaft need to be cut ? any issue with yoke/front u joint ? Q-Jet carb TV cable mount ? who has correct speedo gears ? thanks , Mike

Allan R

Really? There are plenty of folks on this site who have done exactly that - put stock 200 4R's behind their 350 and 455's (and some of those engines are putting out way more than stock HP/torque). Can you explain in detail the reasons for your comments. I'd like to know your reasoning or see some link to documentation substantiating this claim.

I know the early 200 4R's had premature wear and/or failure of the sun gear and clutches. I would think that anyone who's putting a 200 4R in their car would overhaul it to meet the upgrade requirements identified by GM and aftermarket to correct those issues. AFAIK the 700 4R's didn't have that problem. But that doesn't constitute 'beefing' up the tranny.

Professur

My reasoning requires no documentation. There were different versions of the 4r as developments and debugging occurred through the years. There aren't many boneyard 4rs out there in such ideal condition that it would ever make sense to install it as pulled. I think those statements are beyond dispute, no?

Well, if you're already at the point of rebuilding the trans, you're naturally going to want to bring it up to the newest spec ... unless for some reason you want to preserve build an old configuration that even GM abandoned. When you read the ATSG, there are plenty of things they tell you to change to update it. It only makes sense to follow those update instructions while you've got it open and on the table .... yes? That would mean it's no longer in stock form, correct? Machining the parts to allow that extra clutch, upgrading to the larger servo ... changing from rubber to steel seals ... While not exactly in the same realm as cyro-treating the planetary set, it's all still moving up from stock. Installing a shift kit with it's upgraded springs, drilling out passages, leaving out that 5th check ball ...

I think you're leaping a little between the two quoted comments.

Professur

Blatantly borrowed from Impalas.net ... who got it from a 442 site

As you can see, not all 4rs are built equal. You might not have to 'beef up' a KZF ... but an OG is going to cry behind pretty much anything over 150hp .... but not for very long.

Allan R

I guess your reasoning did require documentation even though you felt it didn't. And no I don't think I'm leaping a little. It was a simple question that I think you've just over reacted to.

I didn't realize you were a transmission builder. Well I know I'm not, so I'll just have to treat your advice as expert professional knowledge.

Just an FYI? If I found a good running 200 4R in the boneyard (and there are plenty out there still), I don't think most peeps would think twice about going through it and following recommended upgrades you alluded to. On the other hand if it was a good tranny to start with, it would and could easily bolt up to my 350 L34 with no issues and drive just fine.

Chances are though that just about every 200 4R that's survived this long has likely been rebuilt at least once, so upgrades will likely have been already done. Easy peasy way to find out though as you already stated - check it on the bench.

Note: 200 4R transmissions can still be bought new from reputable shops with as much or little upgrades as you've described.

jag1886

You just have to have one rebuilt by a competent transmission shop that knows 2004R's well, my shop used a complete TransGo kit and it works great. If you have TH400 you will need a new driveshaft and front yoke as the 2004R is shorter, the speedo can be corrected with a gear reduction box, I had mine set up on a dyne so they got it right, the Q-Jet is harder to get hooked to the TV cable than aftermarket carbs but from what I've read here it can be done, you could also talk to BowTIe overdrives and see what they have to say about getting it hooked up, I used there TV kit on my Holley and it worked perfect right out of the box, I used a Shiftworks shifter conversion in my 65 and it works real well and looks completely stock. You should also add a second trans cooler these transmisssions like to be kept cool, and last but not least I advise having it converted to a non lockup torque converter, it makes the overall installation very simple and it will work just like the stock transmission did, getting that lockup to work like it's suppose to is a total PITA and it's only worth about 1MPG. I also added a deep pan to mine so it would carry a little more fluid but mainly because when you add a deep pan you can get a good bottom pickup oil filter instead of the totally stupid top pickup filter all 2004R's use.

TexasT

the 2004r has a 2.76 first gear and the th400 has a 2.48 first so with the 2004r you gain a deeper first and an overdrive. And if you chose a lockup torque converter that gets you even more.

Any of the units will need some upgrades. A hard set of pump rings, hard stator support shaft, hard sun shell should be part of any overhaul. New clutches and seals and steels if the used ones are hot spotted(or you just want new, they aren't that expensive).
As mentioned the tv cable must be installed and operating properly or you get burned clutches in a hurry.
I like an upgraded aftermarket servo, larger boost and rev boost valves and upgraded spring(this might come in a kit depending on what you buy).
Do some reading. You might even want to spring for a ck performance 2004r manual if you want to attempt a diy overhaul. Lots of info on the intrrwebz.
I bought the manual, three cores from the wrecking yard and an atsg manual as well as lots of reading on the web before I put together my plan. I ordered from many places and had good luck. It is in the car and shifting well. I am pleased with it but I know diy isn't for everyone.

Allan R

Love to hear success stories like this. Might need to invest in some specialized tools and give it a try myself. Anything you found particularly challenging? I can get 200 4R's at the local boneyard for about a buck fifty. Don't know if they drain the fluid before they put them up on blocks though.

TexasT

If you are handy and/or mechanical, and have hand tools, I believe you too can overhaul a transmission. It isn't for everyone. You need to have a plan, clean work space, and maybe a little luck. It is messy. I used a metal five gallon bucket with the tail shaft down to Catch the "drippings" as we disassembled. I fabbed a holder out of angle iron to hang the trans off my work bench for assembly. I used a yoke I picked up while at the wrecking yard to position the tailshaft in lew of the fancy fixture. It can be done. You can buy a kit or piece meal it like I did. This was mostly due to my budget. We have one in college, two in hs and one in grade school so it gets stretched thin, then there is the time aspect. This isn't my daily though I did have to repair that during the build, so it took longer than it could have, ans this is a hobby to me. I like wrenching on my stuff. I can't imagine doing it to someone else's greasy junk but doing it to mine is fun to me.

I am happy to try and help anyone who asks. I can tell tou what I know what I used and where I got it. And what I would have bought if I had the money.

Let us hear from ya if you have questions.

cjsdad

The installation has been pretty well documented but not a build. I have the DIY DNA, and the short budget handicap too so I for one would love to read any and all insight you would care to put in print. I already have a core that was disassembled by the guy I bought it from. He said it was in good working order before he took it apart. Dunno! I will be doing it all myself so a build thread would be a real treat.

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TexasT

If I was gonna build one I would want to take it apart, so I could see what and how it came apart. I would pick up another core just so I could take it apart.
I sent you a message cjsdad.

J-(Chicago)

Well if the guy from Impalas.net ever sees this in a future google search, KCF 200-4r came in pontiac safari wagons.

Professur

If you want to work on a tranny, the single biggest priority is space. I've got a 2'x6' free standing table dedicated for work. Plywood top that I covered in several layers of that foil covered vapour barrier. Plenty of room for the tranny, tools, cleaners, and parts. Folded up the corners to keep fluids contained until you want to drain them off. A parts washer is handy, but a rubber maid bin full of soapy water gets the job done. Rinse really well in near boiling water and blow try your parts, then a quick spray of fresh tranny fluid keeps them from rusting. Single most important tool IMO is a good set of measuring tools. Micrometers are sweet, but you can get by with a good dial caliper ... again, just my opinion, but I despise the new digital crap. Whatever you use, remember to double check it with a trusty feeler gauge before you rely on it. Someone dropped your calipers and just put them back in the box without telling you .... that's enough right there to leave you on the side of the road cussing or crying. Check them every time.

1970-W30

Another option to consider is going with a Gear Venders overdrive. I did the 200-4R swap but if I had to do it again I would go with the Gear Vendors unit... Cost wise, a Stage II 200-4R( good for 400hp) $1295, all the odds and ends, tranny cooler, shifter cable assembly, dust cover, TV cable and adaptor, adding a new carb throttle arm, pressure gauge and hose, new gear indicator plate etc. etc. brought me to within a couple of hundred bucks of what the Gear Vendor costs, and that's not counting the time and labor involved.....

Professur

That would make sense if your existing trans was rock solid and ready for another 5 years of road behind your powerplant. If you're upgrading power, your trans already has some significant wear on it, or even if you're just challenged for room in your undercarriage, you'll still have more work to do.

1970-W30

OP didn't mention anything about upgrading power, or if his current TH400 is giving him any problems and a Gear Vendor unit will not have undercarriage problems in a 72 A-body...... Sure, If his current tranny is giving him problems, then A 200-4R swap makes more sense.....

ziff396

I am planning to go with the gear vendors unit when money is available. To many stories with the rebuild and set up of the 4r for me. Besides, It would sound cool split shifting with 6 gears!

TexasT

How much power are you putting down that a 2004r won't work? Splitting gears sounds cool but if you ever drove a truck with a two speed axle you probably wouldn't think it so cool. Your money, your call but a well setup 2004r is hard to beat.

jag1886

Most of the problems with 200R4's is not setting up properly. You can't cut corners with a 200R4. If you rebuild it with good parts add a deep pan with a good filter get rid of the lockup torque converter and get a good TV cable set up they work perfect.

rustyroger

Why get rid if the lock up converter?. Do they have issues, or is it hard to get one that can handle lots of torque?.


Roger.

TexasT

Plenty of good mfg can put together a lock up converter for your situation. I run a custom piece that Phoenix Transmission in Weatherford, Tx put together. Or D Husek, Lonnie Diers, ck performance, can get you into what you need. Or you can go non lock up Dusty at ptc has some excellent service and product. He will also tailor one to your needs.

Professur

I watched a few minutes of an Overhaulin' episode last night. They were working on a vintage pickup and put a built 200-4r behind a big block chevy ... I think they said 492? Anyone catch that? My google-fu is weak this morning, and our viewing sequence is somewhat out of order. I did see him frenching in Ford tail lights into the bumper, using some special tool of his own manufacture (that they didn't let us see) to round the cut edges. It would be interesting to know who built that one, and how much power they were slamming into it.

The lock up convertor was initially a weak point of the 200 series ... indeed, that's where most of their reputation for weakness came from. They'd come in with problems, they'd be told it was the lockup's fault and sold a new 350 to replace it .. sans lockup. But the problems with the lockup were solved within 3 years and never heard from again. In fact, the 350 soon found a C tacked onto it's *** as well. The lock up is only relevant at highway speeds so it's not really a point of discussion for power and acceleration .. but it is for longevity and fuel savings. It's also worth mentioning that the 200-4r, even after beefing it up, has substantially less rotation mass than a 350 or 400 with a GV overdrive behind it. That's more savings right there.
Where power's concerned ... We've all seen 200-4rs behind big blocks, and we've all seen th-400s shattered ... there is no single right answer ... just the best one for each case.

dfire25

I have a 200-4r behind my 455 and I swear by it. My engine is maybe putting out in the neighborhood of 450hp. The trans is newly rebuilt to handle the power (nothing insain) and has a 2800 lock-up stall.

I live in the burbs, so 45mph (when you don't get some slow *** in front of you) is the norm. I have the lock-up set up on a toggle switch. When I'm on the expressway and I'm going 70mph the engine is around 23-2400rpm without the lock-up on. When I hit the lock-up switch my rpm's drop to around 18-1900 rpm. That's lower then my 09 GMC Acadia 6 speed!

If I'm just cruising around doing 35-45mph, my rpm's are around 1500 in forth gear. The engine is just purring like a kitten at that point. Sometimes I'll drop it into third gear just to get a little engine noise out of it.

Like I said, I swear by my 200-4r for the drive ability and economy. I don't know if I'll ever go back to a three speed again. The trans handles the power and I can cruise all day. When I manually go through the gears it shifts nice and hard.

jag1886

It has nothing to do with power out put it's for making the installation simple. I know a lot of people say put a toggle switch in, or use this vacuum switch or that brake switch, I tried every gadget and combination of parts made to make it function but none of them make it work like that factory made them work. Also when you have them converted to non lockup they grind out the oil channels in the pump so the transmission gets full flow to the oil cooler all the time.
When you convert to a non lockup the transmission works the same way the original did and the lockup is only worth 1MPG for the hassle.

TexasT

Nothing wrong with going to a non lock up converter. This "grinding" of pump passages is a new one on me.

http://www.coanracing.com/PDFS/Insta.../COA-92847.pdf

These are similar to the sonnax and California performance Trans kits.

So you are saying you already have a 2004r in your vehicle and you are having probs getting the lockup to work? Not really rocket science(see what I did there?). It may take several adjustments to the vac switch and/ or the brake switch. How do you have it wired? Those vacuum and brake switches are the ones the factory used.