mfgusa

Dear Olds Guru Shrink,

I have been perusing the internet in an attempt to acquire enough information to competently purchase a +500 hp/tq 2004R. So far I've found what appear to be 3 internet available vendors.
Now before I get carpet bombed with other builders, please consider my fundamental objectives. I have none. Well I have 1. And that is to get a trouble free transmission with overdrive that will take a beating and be relatively easy to install. Okay, that’s like 4 objectives.
In my endeavors I have come to realize that the chances of this going smoothly, whether by my hand or theirs, are diminishing and I’ve come to feel that if I miss a question to the builder (the tech I’m talking to), I may $pay$ dearly.
Some of the things bothering me? Well of course the TV cable adjustment is obviously critical (And I’ll always wonder if it’s right), Can I get a bracket to attach it to my Holley? Will the drive shaft have to be shortened, Does the Dual Gate have to be modified?, You say the brake cable location ‘may’ change, but will the gravel guard off my 350 fit? How about the dip stick and tube? Shift points… are they going to be at 2k, 5k or some random number, and will they be too harsh… or not snappy enough. Do I need a lock up toggle and a dedicated connector to the tranny? Who has that? Did a speedometer drive gear for a 3:91 ever get produced and if so who has one.

And would ya shut up Son! I’m not getting a 700r4!

Then I read in CO some of the problems and frustrated attempts.

Has anyone here actually succeeded in this without severe emotional, physical and financial damage?

Perplexed in Peshtigo

bccan

I will post more as I have time as I have been through the 200-4R routine a few times & have had good results in general. I won't make any reccomendations but maybe you could let us know who you are looking at as potential sources for the trans.

The first test for choosing a builder is whether they have the "Turbo Buick Crowd Seal of Approval". There are exceptions to every rule but this one has precious few. Do a lot of searching forums - GN's, Monte SS, Olds, Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, see what real people say, not what a company's web page touts.

Give us some details about the application - yr, model, drivetrain, power level, intentions, ability to install & potentially self tune.

joe_padavano

Don't know anything about no "internet" sources, but one source I can personally recommend is CK Performance. http://ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RCATALOG.html

Chris regularly builds 200-4R transmissions that survive behind 9 second Buick GNs. How it fits depends on what trans you have in your car now. Replacing a TH350 you can use the stock driveshaft, but need to move the crossmember to the TH400 position. If replacing a TH400 the crossmember remains in the same place but you need a TH350 driveshaft and front yoke. If you have to move the crossmember, you need to replace the front and intermediate e-brake cables with those for a TH400 car.

mfgusa

Thanks for responding.

I grew up in my Dads shop who was a GM technician. I've rebuilt engines from Buicks to Volkswagons and still do lots of troubleshooting and problem solving. My current projects are a '70 455 Toro motor and '69 350 OSB. I have worked in the auto industry (29 years as a Journeyman electrician) have several certifications in Fanuc Robotics, Seimens and a host of other NC control stuff and I still work on cars in my shop. Even my son is a Auto mechanics teacher and we are currently building a '71 pro street Cutlass.

I've rebuilt 2 th350's and a powerglide in my lifetime. Both 350's with B&M stuff when they were all the rage. Piece of cake stuff. I've had a 2004r in my '90 cruiser which failed, so I replaced it with a TH350 I had laying around (Never did try to fix the 200 - just tossed it because then I didn't see any potential in it) so I at least know what they look like.

I've been eye ballin' CPT (Art Carr) and have read most of what Jakes had to say. Both those guys seem to know their stuff. Currently I have been giving Josh at Monster most of my attention. I have also logged onto to Regal guys a few weeks ago as well as other FAQS and gear heads I know.

Target car; 1970 Cutlass S with @420hp 455, TH350, 3:91 gears. My wife and I would like to expand to more distant car events in the midwest but retain its awesome performance.

I suspect that all you guys at CO may think I'm nitpicky or non committal, but I have concluded that there is an awful lot of preparation and putzing regarding the 2004r. I'm not afraid of work, but am I going to regret it after all the expense and effort? I know what my engines can do before I bolt them in, but not this thing.

Jeff

mfgusa

Joe, I checked out your CK link. I've been on their site before but will research them more when time permits - thanks.

So what do you think the odds are of me finding a A body car with a 400 in it so I can remove the rusty brake cables?

bccan

CPT or PTS Extreme if you are leaning out west. Monster has too many negative stories floating around for my taste.

E-Brake cables not a big deal, I just put a universal stop on my int cable where it engages the left rear cable & clipped off the excess. You can also buy the correct ones (2 door w/ TH400)easily aftermarket. You do need to replace the primary as noted above by Joe. Driveshaft length & yokes also as noted above.

You need to get a TV cable, bracket & stud for throttle arm. There are universal cables & brackets or OE bracket + some research for a compatible OE cable. I'll post up some part #'s if I get a chance to check it in next day or two. It is advisable to get a cable geometry corrector if Holley carb so TV cable travels correctly. I would discuss this w/ your builder, also see "TV Made EZ" from Bowtie. I have simply added studs to Qjets. I have a "proper" throttle arm from later Qjet but never installed it, don't know how important it is.

Search Olds forums for lockup info as it has been discussed a fair bit.

I'll get you a speedo gear combo based on 26.5" - 27" tire & 3.90's - mine is dead on @ 1 mph faster indication than the speed nanny signs around town. If you have tires of that size, you'll be right on.

I will warn you that the only one of these trannies that went into a car that I was involved with needing no driveability tuning was a dead stock, original BRF but I still ended up tuning the governor for WOT shifts. I think that is nearly a given. Part throttle shifts may need tweaking too but the real good builders will have you close or dead on & at least help you w/ support if you need it. Just too many variables (converter, vehicle weight, torque curve, personal preference, etc) to nail it every time, I think.

mfgusa

Thanks Bccan for the help,

I'm in Wisconsin.

How do you use yours and how is it set up (valve body). How does it shifts under normal use and wot. Does it feel too crisp at light throttle shifts or mushy at wot? What are the rpms that it shifts at when the TV cable is set up correctly and how do you signal TQ lock-up?

Have you had it long and what tranny did you use to before the 2004r.

Maybe I feel this way from the lack of answers I was getting at Monster. I'm lousy at talking tech probably because I think too much, but good at working with it.

Jeff

oldsmoboogie

I have a 2004r in my 72 cutlass with a 455 that puts out almost 500 hp and over 550 ft lbs of torque. I drag race the car often and i also go on legs of the power tour and long weekend cruises u to 200 miles away. This trans has held up great but you do have to be careful with the tv cable. There are a couple of methods to adjusting it you can attach a guage to ports and adjust to a certain line pressure or by the seat of the pants like i do. The good thing with this is you can adjust shift harshness with a few clicks of the cable. I drive my car to the strip about 30 miles tighten up the cable 2 clicks race all day then back it off 2 clicks when its time to drive home. I use a 3000 stall non lock up converter so i dont have to mess around with a lock up switch. A lock up converter only nets you about 200 rpm drop so i didnt feel it was worth the hassle. Good luck

jag1886

Look at Bowtie OverDrives for the stuff to get the TV to work properly. I just installed there kit and it works perfect. It is also adjustable at the end of the throttle linkage.

mfgusa

Nowhere in the world can you get the kind of service I have recieved from you guys. Well on second thought, there was this strip club in Vancouver..

Monster did question my query regarding a non lock up. They said they wouldn't recommend it but left me to reply why. Regardless, I too figured the lock up may not be worth the hassel and I haven't responded back yet.

So lets sift through the crap. I don't want to be married to my transmission. I'd rather be married to my motor, and Wife, on my terms, and not in that order specifically,.. and not on my terms either apparently. I want it with no baggage, but ready to put out. Kind of like a hooker. Well, actually more like todays airline industry.

My next step is to purchase the tranny. I have a great resource in CO and presently the time to do it, as well as some added confidence. I also have the shifter conversion kit.

So here I go. Any parting recommendations?

Rickman48

Go with the lock-up!!
Although only maybe 2-400 RPM, the lockup will help a lot on the highway with slippage, which causes heat - which affects longevity!!

mfgusa

In a recent conversation with Monster, I recieved this information about the lockup as well as a bevy of other good stuff.

[About the lockup, my understanding is that it's a 1000 rpm drop when the lockup kicks in. We had a 57 bellaire we installed a monster in and it dropped 1500 rpms ! ].

If that is accurate, then it would be silly not to utilize it. Just hit $4 bucks for gas here in P town.

oldsmoboogie

I have 27 inch tall tires and 3.73 gears and at 60 to 65 im at 2200 rpm with a non lock up converter. If i remember corectly art carr states its a 200 to 400 rpm drop. I would check there website and email them to ask what he recomends it would be worth it to find out for sure.

mfgusa

I like your set up Oldsmoboogie. I've been thinking about it since you first chimed in. You have all the versatility I've been intending to put into mine, as well as a few extra horsepower, and you know how to tweak it. Very John Milner-ish (American Graffiti).

Anything extra I can get with my 3:91's would be gravy and I really like that gear so I won't sweat the details too much. If I get a chance though I'll ask him.

oldsmoboogie

Thanks my goal is to run 11s at the track and still be able to hop in and drive anywhere i want without issues. I still have some tuning to do and hopefully i will have that elusive 11 sec slip in my hand by middle of summer. Im gonna wait till after the power tour to do too much thrashing on it as i dont want any issues before the road trip. You should see the look on peoples faces when i pull in the track with no truck or trailer and hand out beatings to trailered cars and i just hop in and hit the interstate and head home. This car has been very reliable and never required me to turn a wrench on it while on the road knock on wood. I am wishing i woulda went with the 3.90 gears givin i cross the traps at 5200 rpm but its workn so i will leave it alone. The 200 4r was deffinatly one of the best upgrades ive done. Good luck with your ventures and let us know how it goes.

mfgusa

As a courtesy for those of you at CO I should give you a update, after all it's been nearly 3 years. As they say,"no news is good news".

My Monster built tranny has held up fine other than a minor fluid leak I have yet to locate. The only issues on the install was I was sent a cheby TC which wouldn't fit the flex plate (balance weight interference) and the universal cover wasn't so universal and required some petty modifications. The Hurst dual gate and Shiftworks conversion kit worked flawlessly and looks stock with the 4-speed indicator.

I had to do some creative routing of the brake cable due to relocation of the cross member but no sweat. I chose to install the toggle switch instead of the vacuum switch for the Lock Up function. The '70 driveshaft fit perfectly but I thought I would match that up with a '71 driveshaft I had laying around and the '71 was an inch shorter for some reason.

Shift points of the TV cable adjustment were a breeze and after a few test runs I was grinning from ear to ear. I thought the downshifts were a bit harsh but I'm use to it now and my U-joints appear to be holding up fine. The lock up drops the RPM's down another 200. Even with the 3:91's it just loafs along on the highway.

In drive, once I begin rolling, the tranny instantaneously shifts into 2nd but I almost expected that. Performance is also what I expected. The 70 series BFG's both smoke nicely through the first 2 gears, then for a good portion of 3rd. I find manually shifting the DG the most fun anyways. She shifts @ 5100 at WOT so I have a 5200 pill in the MSD.

Going on 3 years and nearly 8k since the install and the shifts are still crisp. Only the motor is showing its age but there's another 455 on the engine stand. I am pleased with Monster Transmission and the ease of the installation. Of course I don't make much over 400HP and I don't drag race the car so in my world it works fine.

joe_padavano

From Post #3 above:

Sorry, but I just don't understand why people are so reluctant to just use the right parts for this. The crossmember goes in the TH400 location, and the cables for that are readily available and not expensive.

Fun71

Thanks for the update, I appreciate it I have been researching this swap over the last week.

That reason would likely be the difference in snout length between the '70 O-Type 12 bolt and the '71 8.5" 10 bolt rearends.