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I have a 64 jetstar. Automatic column shift. I have a 200r4 i picked up a few years back. Most likely needs a rebuild. I would prefer to keep it colum shift if possible. I have many questions. Do i need to fab anything for the crossmember. Do i use the same drive shaft. How is everyone mounting the tv cable. What are musts for this project.
Your B-body uses a long-tail Jetaway. The 200-4R only comes in one length, which is equivalent to a short-tail Jetaway. This will require a custom (longer) driveshaft, but be aware that a longer shaft will have a lower critical speed, which is why those full size cars used long-tail transmissions. The new shaft SHOULD be made from larger diameter tube than your current shaft to avoid the critical speed problem. Your other problem is that the 200-4R uses the TH400 crossmember location, which is further back than that for the Jetaway, and since the 64 cars didn't offer the TH400, there is no provision for mounting the crossmember there. On a hardtop you can slide the crossmember back to the required position and drill new holes in the lower frame flange to match. On a convertible with the boxed frame, you need to weld extensions to the tabs on the inboard side of the frame where the crossmember bolts up, then drill new holes.
You will also need to fabricate TV cable linkage, the 2004r won’t last long without the TV cable working correctly. It has to be right, close enough won’t get it.
You will also need to figure out how to control the torque converter clutch. It’s pretty easy to wire up a 4th gear pressure switch to allow lockup after the 3-4 shift.
Thats fine for me. I believe the 200r4 use a cable instead if shift linkage. How does that attach to the linkage on my car. Also i tried searching is there another post or write-up about installing a 200r4 in a 64 olds.
Thats fine for me. I believe the 200r4 use a cable instead if shift linkage. How does that attach to the linkage on my car. Also i tried searching is there another post or write-up about installing a 200r4 in a 64 olds.
The 200-4R uses a cable for the throttle valve. There is still a shift linkage to select gears.
So you guys say my driveshaft would be too short, because my year tansmission has a longer tail stock. So would a different year drive shaft bolt up to my car and the 200r4.
So you guys say my driveshaft would be too short, because my year tansmission has a longer tail stock. So would a different year drive shaft bolt up to my car and the 200r4.
Go back and read post #3. There is no "bolt in" driveshaft.
To keep the cost down. My coworker has just shortened his and rebalanced. As well as another friend of mine. Another buddy had one fabricated brand new.
To keep the cost down. My coworker has just shortened his and rebalanced. As well as another friend of mine. Another buddy had one fabricated brand new.
Any longer driveshaft will come from a truck. The yokes and U-joints will be too large to mate with axle in your car. Take your existing shaft to a driveshaft shop. They will reuse the ends and cut a new tube to the correct length. In the scheme of what you will be spending on this swap, the driveshaft cost is a nit.
Do yourself a favor and get a 4l80e. 2004rs are not worth the trouble. They need way too much reworking to last. It was the transmission to swap but it has a very poor track record unless you buy the CPT trans for huge $$$..
Ya im not sure what I'm in for price wise. Im in Canada. I have a connection on someone who is good with the 200r4's and he is around $900 for a stock rebuild. Not sure on any upgrades or extras i may want or need.
Do yourself a favor and get a 4l80e. 2004rs are not worth the trouble. They need way too much reworking to last. It was the transmission to swap but it has a very poor track record unless you buy the CPT trans for huge $$$..
The OP has a stock 330 in a J88. A mildly built 200-4R will be fine, and FAR less cost and collateral damage than a 4L80E. Get the hardened parts and roller bearing conversion from CK Performance. The trans controller for the 4L80E alone will cost more, not to mention the trans tunnel mods.
Thanks Joe for all the info, everytime i post something. Im also Joe. My 330 is pretty mild, bored over, mild cam, 7A heads, edelbrock intake and a qaudrajet carb. I was hoping for someone who did this swap in a 64 to chome in. I want to know what cables and brackets they bought. Where from etc etc.
A stock 4l80e can be had for a about a grand, controllers are less than 500 bucks these days. A stock 330 and the heavy Jetstar will strain a "mild" 200. I can't comment on the tunnel modifications needed. I know the 4l80 is a big trans...
A stock 4l80e can be had for a about a grand, controllers are less than 500 bucks these days. A stock 330 and the heavy Jetstar will strain a "mild" 200. I can't comment on the tunnel modifications needed. I know the 4l80 is a big trans...
The 4L80E has the same 2.48 first gear as a TH400. The 200-4R has a 2.74 first. The difference off the line will be noticeable. And you can't get a rebuilt 4L80E for a grand. Besides the controller you need the special cooling line connectors, the trans bellhousing adapter, etc, etc.
Do some searching on this sight, you can fill at least an evening reading informative threads and that’s if you’re a speed reader. Come back and ask questions for clarification after you do some reading.
I would stay mostly on this site and you could also poke around realoldspower.com simply due to the Oldscentric focus.
The 200 is your most economical, uncomplicated overdrive transmission conversion option. You want a mid level strengthened transmission for your application if engine power mods are not planned in the future. A new driveshaft is not that expensive so don’t try to work around it. You don’t have to do a lockup function but it is nice and it’s not that complicated. My kid’s car has a 200 with over 200k miles on it behind a warm 350 with only a shift kit and servo in it, he doesn’t tend to beat it but he has had it to the track a few times.
The last 4l80e i had rebuilt was 950 bucks on a bench build. I did reuse the torque converter as the rebuilder saw no need to replace. There was no catastrophic failure/contamination. Keep in mind the 4l80 will not need any upgrades for stock type use, even behind most stock big block cars. This was a core from a 2wd van i bought off craigslist for 250 bucks. The bellhousing adapter and jiffy tite connecters are not an insurmountable problem. Once you start replacing hard parts in a 200, hardened input shaft, pump upgrade, etc, I'd bet a cold beer it'll be as much as the 4l80e once it's finished.
Folks are drawn to the 200 due to the bell housing and its relatively bolt in swap. The fact is the trans is a toilet that was designed to stand behind some of the lowest HP engines GM ever made. Even the OP's small block car isn't a great fit. His 330 is easily double the HP as the 307 or 305 that 2004r was behind originally and his car is probably nearly 1000 lbs heavier.. thats asking alot.
Yes, I am well aware of the GN, I'm also well aware the $$$ the serious GN racers have in their 200s to make them last.
The stock column shifter will only allow you to manually access OD and D positions. You won't be able to manually shift into second or low.
Not true. You can change the ratio of the column lever motion to the trans lever motion like I did in my '68 Cutlass. Sure, the PRNDL indicators won't line up (would need a PRNODSL indicator anyway, which I seriously doubt is available for a'64 J/S), but just count the clicks when you shift and you'll know what gear you are in. Link to details on my 200-4R swap which retained full gear selection function w/ my column shift is in my sig (also shows how I hooked up the TV cable to my 2bbl carb).
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; Oct 22, 2021 at 04:11 AM.
Not true. You can change the ratio of the column lever motion to the trans lever motion like I did in my '68 Cutlass. Sure, the PRNDL indicators won't line up (would need a PRNODSL indicator anyway, which I seriously doubt is available for a'64 J/S), but just count the clicks when you shift and you'll know what gear you are in. Link to details on my 200-4R swap which retained full gear selection function w/ my column shift is in my sig (also shows how I hooked up the TV cable to my 2bbl carb).
The detent plate in the steering column won't have the correct detent positions for four forward gears. Even worse, if you change the lever ratio and keep the detent plate, now the column shift lever won't latch into place for each gear past park. Do you really want the shift linkage to accidentally slide from OD to N when you hit a bump? All-in-all, not a great solution.
The detent plate in the steering column won't have the correct detent positions for four forward gears. Even worse, if you change the lever ratio and keep the detent plate, now the column shift lever won't latch into place for each gear past park. Do you really want the shift linkage to accidentally slide from OD to N when you hit a bump? All-in-all, not a great solution.
I'm pretty sure the only place where there are "rotational detents" is in the trans, not the column (at least I didn't feel any detents when my column was disconnected from the trans.......if they do exist, they are pretty weak). While there ARE "gates" that prevent you from bumping it into "R" from "N" and into "P" from "R" (you have to pull the shift lever towards you against an internal spring to get around them), once the ratio is adjusted properly, those gates line up pretty well with the detents in the trans (as well as the neutral safety switch in the column). Other than the gear indicator in the speedo being offset, I've had zero problems having the trans change gears on its own for any reason. Once in a great while it won't crank when in "P" and I have to nudge the shift lever to get the neutral safety switch to make contact, but I attribute that to imperfect alignment of the NSS to the trans detents. I'm sure if I spent a little more time tweaking this adjustment that would no longer be the minor nuisance it is
Granted, a column from a '64 Jetstar may be different than my '68. I'd have to defer to your expertise on that.
I won’t begin to discuss the steering column interchange problems, I’m perfectly content to let Joe comment on those questions.
As for the 200R4 being a “toilet trans”, the 200R4 in grandma’s is IDENTICAL to the famed BRFcode Grand National and Turbo Trans Am cars, with the exception of the valve body, servo, and governor. There is no such thing as a factory beefed up 200R4 trans.
This isn’t 1985, neither the 700 or 200R4 are as bad as people make them out to be. I have run many 200R4 in stout street cars, assuming they are installed and adjusted correctly they live just fine. Rebuild them with the proper parts, they are even better.
There is zero reason a 200R4 in good condition won’t live behind a stout 330. Find one on a junkyard with clean red fluid, install a servos and shift kit, make absolutely sure the TV cable is adjusted correctly (with the proper linkage!) it will work just fine.
In stock form, the 700 trans is a stronger trans than the 200R4. But there is no question the 200R4 has greater strength potential, assuming you spend the money for the aftermarket parts. The 700 weak link will always be the input shaft pressed into an aluminum housing, big power will tear it out of the input housing. The stamped steel parts of a 200R4 can be replaced with aftermarket parts made from much better material.
I also won’t argue that either trans, regardless of budget, modified with every aftermarket high dollar upgrade available, will be weaker than a stock 4L80 with a shift kit. If you absolutely have to have overdrive, and have a heavy car with lots of power, use the 4L80. The money wasted on aftermarket parts would be better spent on a trans controller.
A 330 doesnt need a 4L80.
This is my usual reply when I get people wanting to build a 700/4L60 with big power.
I'm pretty sure the only place where there are "rotational detents" is in the trans, not the column (at least I didn't feel any detents when my column was disconnected from the trans.......if they do exist, they are pretty weak).
Why do you think the shift lever is spring loaded and you have to pull it towards you to shift? Tell you what. Disconnect the rod from the steering column to the trans, put the shifter in PARK, then try to move it without pulling towards yourself first.
As for the 200R4 being a “toilet trans”, the 200R4 in grandma’s is IDENTICAL to the famed BRFcode Grand National and Turbo Trans Am cars,
Sadly, most of the planet gears and clutch packs for first through third are also identical to those in the TH200C three speed...
Yes I agree that there's no problem with the 200-4R once you upgrade a few critical parts. These are easy to get and well known.
Sadly, most of the planet gears and clutch packs for first through third are also identical to those in the TH200C three speed...
Yes I agree that there's no problem with the 200-4R once you upgrade a few critical parts. These are easy to get and well known.
I have built a few 2004R for some Grand Nationals that ran very low 11s with nothing more than a CK shift kit, wide band, and good frictions. Supposedly, after the forward clutch housing, the next weak link is the input shaft and overdrive carrier. I guess none of the grand nationals stressed those parts at their performance level to break those parts. I did nearly twist the splines off the forward clutch housing in my low 13s 455 powered 87 cutlass. I’m guessing the instant torque of the 455 was harder on the splines that the gradual torque curve of the turbo engine.
Everyone use to think the hot setup was to install thin clutches and steels in the direct drum (factory has 6 clutches I think, there are kits to install up to 9). Added friction material is always good, except the thin stuff doesn’t handle heat nearly as well. Maybe for a strictly bracket race car (and if your only brscket racing, why bother with a overdrive trans?) but the thin stuff doesn’t last long on a real world street car.
I don’t think there is any argument that 4L80E is a better transmission than a 200-4R but I know very little to nothing about them. Personally I’ve never seen one that would cost less than $4-5k by the time it’s in the car and working but that may just be ignorance. I don’t know anything about the details of a Jetstar frame, floor or transmission tunnel but it seems to me the 4L80E won’t fit an “A” body without floor/braces, crossmember and minor frame modifications, again, may just be ignorance and may not be relevant to the Jet, for all I know an Allison might fit in there.
We’re dealing with a stock 330 in this thread, how much beef does the transmission really need? As mentioned previously, in the family, we have a BRF 200-4R behind a 9:1, mild roller cammed 350 that might put out 350hp and similar torque (wild *** guesses) with a CK shift kit & servo, it’s still kickin just fine at 200k+ miles. That said, I have 2 hurt 200’s under the bench. I could still drive them but the 2-3 shift went soft, they are slated for a day trip to Long Island to have Chris K or Dave H build me a stout spare and take a core credit for one. They have various parts in each but nothing all that stout. I hurt them with a ~400hp 350. My point is that if OP is gonna drive & cruise, a stock unit with a shift kit should be reliable, if it’s gonna get beat on it would require AT LEAST a mid level build. Due to my 2 decade affair with various 200’s I personally have learned the hard way - go directly to a fully built, fully strengthened unit that shifts reasonably for every day driving which comprises 99% of my car’s use but will stand up to the higher demand 1%.
It was explained to me by both Chris K and Russ Merritt (former(?) turbobuick.com mod & 200-4R builder) that it is high torque engine at low rpm combined with part throttle demand that tends to hurt these, The TV cable/valve is only partially pulled, thus line pressure is not that high and in a heavy car with high gears you have a heavy load resulting in vulnerability. This is the Achilles heel of a transmission built mostly for wheezing smoggers and even the performance combos made little torque down low and little horsepower up high. The GN was only what, 250 hp? I don’t know what the torque curve looks like. This post certainly exposes how much I don’t know!
Shifter - I have modified the detent plate in 3 spd to 200 swaps to allow selection of low. For casual driving it probably isn’t needed but owner may find the low select-ability preferable. I haven’t been near a 2 spd to 200 swap but it may allow some detent mod to allow selection of L2. There may be detent plates/quadrants available in the aftermarket, likely listed for the 700, that would make this an easy to solve issue.
I have built a few 2004R for some Grand Nationals that ran very low 11s with nothing more than a CK shift kit, wide band, and good frictions. Supposedly, after the forward clutch housing, the next weak link is the input shaft and overdrive carrier. I guess none of the grand nationals stressed those parts at their performance level to break those parts. I did nearly twist the splines off the forward clutch housing in my low 13s 455 powered 87 cutlass. I’m guessing the instant torque of the 455 was harder on the splines that the gradual torque curve of the turbo engine.
There's a lot of truth to this.
The other thing it that not everyone wants or needs a bang-shifting trans designed for the drag strip. The OP's relatively stock 330 cruiser is one prime example. The 200-4R with mild upgrades is the right choice.
20 years ago it was 5k for a 4l80e swap. Again, I'd bet a cold beer with confidence that a man could swap either trans for the same $$ these days and the 4l80 is twice the trans. Its a no brainer. The 200 has too many issues to fix and I've yet to meet anyone who is happy with the part throttle shifts!
20 years ago it was 5k for a 4l80e swap. Again, I'd bet a cold beer with confidence that a man could swap either trans for the same $$ these days and the 4l80 is twice the trans. Its a no brainer. The 200 has too many issues to fix and I've yet to meet anyone who is happy with the part throttle shifts!
It is relatively strong & more common than the 200-4R.
More clearance than a 4L80E & no trans controller.
More first gear multiplication to get a heavy car moving.
Yes, you have to move the cross member back quite a bit.
Actually not. The massive accumulator wart on the side of the 700R4 case typically requires more tunnel work in an A-body than does a 4L80E. And of course you still have the adapter plate problem and cost.
Regardless of the OD trans, drive shaft mods have to be made. Anyone else waiting on parts from CK? Nearly two months for a pump, shift kit and seal kit for a 2004R. The 700R4/4L60E has meh gearing, more common and more shops build them. My real beef I have with them is in trucks, forget towing any weight in OD. The 4L80E adds up to 2K in hurry, good core, good converter, controller, an adapter and you are there.
