cutsupreme72

Hello All,

I am planning on doing an overdrive conversion, I have read the threads and talked to some people and I am thinking this will be great! I currently have a 350/350 setup and it runs great and shifts great it's a column shift. The transmission currently has a leak at the front seal, I'm almost certain, and I would like better mpg and overdrive capability for longer trips so it all seems to add up to a conversion. I have a core tranny I want to get rebuilt out of an 85-86 Monte Carlo SS I believe, (tranny is a th200r4 but wasn't in the car when I bought it. and want to convert transmission over. I do know about moving the cross member back and getting th400 park brake cables but I wanted to ask a few questions from some of you who have done this what your thoughts are.

1. When I rebuild it, what type of kit should I use?
2. I heard you have to build the transmission for the torque or you'll blow it up, what solenoids, clutch packs, shift kits, etc. would you recommend?
3. What should I do about the linkage now that I added another gear?
4. any suggestions on proper torque converter/ lock up needed?

Keep in mind I have a stock 350, stock rear end, HEI, column shift, don't plan on making it a race car but would like a well built transmission for street use. Also I have never been a transmission guy and always send out things that are above my general know how, it's better that way! thanks in advance

bccan

CK Performance has a well put together manual that should probably get you through the process. Might give Chris a call (sometimes it takes a few) & talk to him about your plans, let him tell you what you need. His shift programming is excellent but that doesn't mean it won't take a an adjustment or two to nail the calibration (with anyone's stuff).

If you want to access manual low gear w/ column shift the detent in column needs to be ground/filed for more travel. I have also run into grinding a bit @ the shift arm/tube on end of column in engine bay. There are different configs for the arm so not definite. Use the TH350 arm on selector shaft of trans. Use TH350 dipstick tube & indicator.

You'll get as many different converter recs as there are responders so i would see what trans expert suggests. FWIW I have a TCS 9x11 billet converter rated for 2600 but in my car it stalls @2400. Very nice unit & no noticeable slip in normal driving. My experience says don't buy a cheap converter, spend the money for a good quality unit, it's worth it. Coan, Pat's, Vigilante, Edge, PTC, etc are where to look, I know there are others just not coming to mind.

RetroRanger

does the monte trans have the BOP bolt pattern ?

bccan

I'm thinking it would be a CQ unit which has pretty good calibration for normally aspirated V8. With a good shift kit (like CK's) & other supporting components you should have a trannie w/ good manners. (maybe your parents would even like him, er, her, or.....whatever)

Anubis

If its the factory 200 4R from the Monte SS it should be a CZF code which are desirable because they had the highest shift points of all 200 4R's. I highly discourage attempting a rebuild on a 200 4R. A TH 350 or 400, no problem. The 200 4R is a fussy trans and you need to be very experienced to do it right. I spent a lot of time and money on mine and should have bought one ready to go. CK performance and Lonnies Extreme Automatics are both repected builders. You may be better off selling the CZF you have for core value ($200 or so) and having one of these guys ship you a trans ready to go. As already noted, they can adjust the shift points to your liking and build it to last.

http://www.extremeautomatics.com/wha...whatlevel.html

http://www.ckperformance.com/resourc...SMISSIONS.html

Littlepetey

I have a similar question.I have a 350 that I would like to bolt to an 200R4 from a Grand National.
My biggest concern is the flex plate. is the torque converter bolt pattern compatible with the 1970 flex plate or will I need to find some thing compatible?

The engine is going into an 1985 cutlass so the rest is pretty strait forward. I have not purchased the transmission from the seller yet, It comes with a torque converter however I do not know if the turbo V6 converter will work well with the V8 even if it bolts up?

cwracer

Ill be following this closely. I have just purchased a '72 vista cruiser that I would like to upgrade to a 200r4, and efi.

jag1886

Torque converter bolted right up to my 69 flex plate. My builder used all TransGo parts and it works real well. If you drive the car slow it shifts like an old man car, if you lean on it, it will bark the tires throw the gears.I just got done beating it up in the mountains for several 100 miles a couple of weeks ago and it came throw it perfectly.

Vistabrat72

I concur with jag1886: A 200-4R on my '72 Vista Cruiser built up with Trans-Go parts and a billet Super-Servo is very civil at low speeds but under hard throttle will chirp into second and shift very hard into third and fourth, then have a nice lock-up. As well as one could expect from a heavy car. Just note cwracer, you will need a longer drive shaft to fit as the 200-4R is shorter then the Turbo 350 (or 375) your car may have. A few shims on the lever pivot point was needed on my frame to move the bracket a little closer to the transmission. It is pretty much a bolt-in thing for most Cutlass/Vista Cruise applications. My original non-tilt steering column grabbed all 4 forward gears with no mods, but the '73 Cutlass tilt steering column adapted needed the arm increased by a half-inch to increase the arc it would swing to allow me to have low gear. Please see enclosed picture.

jag1886

I used a small converter 1800-2000 stall as I have a small cam. You should also consider whether you want a lockup converter or not. The lockup depends a lot on where you live, the flat landers seem to be able to use it quite easily whereas myself living in the mountains found it didn't work worth poop and converted back to a non lock up and now it works perfect. I like the non lockup also because they convert the pump to full time flow so all the oil is going to the cooler even when the converter isn't lock in making for a lot cooler running transmission.

cwracer

How does the shift indicator on the speedo function? I just need PRND to work, don't care much about the others.

1970-W30

"you will need a longer drive shaft to fit as the 200-4R is shorter then the Turbo 350"
Just to clarify, the 350 turbo and 200-4R are not different in lenght, unless the 350 is a long tailshaft version which A body cars don't use. It's just the crossmember mount that is farther back.

cwracer

I currently have a TH400 in place of the 375 that it came with. I still need to know if the shift indicator needs to be modified.

Vistabrat72

The prnd worked out just fine on my vehicle, being in the same spots as the old 3-speed. It is after that to note 3,2, are not quite falling on the 's' and 'L' on the shifter indicator. '1' actually causes the dial pointer to all but dissapear from sight when selected. But no big deal overall.

oldsbucket

vistabrat72 did you have to modify the trans crossmember ?

Vistabrat72

No, not at all. The 375 and 400 are the same save that the 375 uses the smaller output shaft that accepts the Thm350/200-4R yokes. So with this said all attributes in the shift linkage is the same.

Vistabrat72

Thank you for asking. On my given application I had to ever so slightly oval the bolt holes in the crossmember with a rat tail file to make the fit a little less tight. That was it. The crossmember fits into the same slots in the frame as where it would go for a Turbo 400. So owners with cars thus originally equipped with such luck out in the intermediate parking brake cable department too!

oldsbucket

well mine is off by an inch to the 400 mount holes more than i could file what trans mount are you using? i bought a 350 mount which fits the 200 . but maybe the 200 is offset? parts store didn't carry it to compare. apologies for highjacking but the info may help others also

joe_padavano

Then you're doing something wrong. The bellhousing to trans mount pad dimension is exactly the same on both transmissions (27 15/16"). If by "mount" you mean the rubber trans mount, those should be all the same. There are no "offset" mounts (unless this is a Supreme and you are installing headers... ).

oldsbucket

Thanks Joe; Great picture but i just measured and i have 27" from bellhousing to c/l of the trans mount bolts on the 200 just took out the 400 and all was bolted properly so IDK

joe_padavano

Did you measure your TH400, just out of curiosity?

oldsbucket

looks like 28 1/4 to c/l of bolt hole. its a long tail 400.(going to remeasure) I think there is something wrong with the illustrated 200 dimensions as the overall and the mount have only a 5/16 difference and i know the c/l of the mounting hole is further fwd than that. the back of the cast pad is about 5/16 from the tail if that is what they are measuring

oldsbucket

DSCN0890.jpg

DSCN0901.jpg

DSCN0892.jpg

first try at pictures the tape measurement needs 5/8" added as it is from the flywheel bell is 5/8 further.

Vistabrat72

Hmmm, interesting. I used a mount purchased off Evil Bay that claimed to fit 200, 350, 700. With all the mix-match stuff being sold, who knows where the mount originated. It did look exactly like the old, worn out mount that came with my 200-4R. 1-inch sounds like a sizeable difference indeed. I think I saw in your pictures the mount to cross member bolt slots are a little elongated. I will go out to the garage later today to see under the car, and look over some of my notes on just how the fitting went. And get some pictures of where exactly things sit. Howie.

oldsbucket

I found the 200 trans mount ($8.00) bolted on the same as a 350 mount but had a single center stud aka 400 type which meant one less hole to deal with. i hogged out the two trans mount bolt holes and the crossmember center hole to get it to fit. Where the mount originally fit snug to the transmission pan i now have a 3/4" gap. IDK why this happened and could not find anything to change that would have affected this. the long shaft 400 was in there working properly before i started bolted to the rear most set of frame bolt holes. waiting now on the new 3.5" driveline as the shop didn't want to stick with the stock 3" at the new length.

dfire25

When and if my motor finally get rebuilt, dam engine guy was suppose to have it completed by June 1st , I'm going to swap out my th400 with a 200-4r.

So here's my question, what needs to be modified? This seems to be a popular subject on here lately so I've read all the post, but I haven't heard a definite answer to the question. Being that I'm replacing a th400 will this sucker just drop right in? Can I use the same crossmember mounts, yoke and driveshaft? Looking at the measurements, they look like the same size.

So if anyone has done this swap in a 70-72 442 please let me know how it went.

oldsbucket

you need a 35O yoke or you may find a complete 350 drive shaft as it looks like 350's came in different length tailshafts . Start looking for a core trans if you are going to rebuild or have it rebuilt although fully built units for the power level you want are available online, i personally like dealing with local shops these trans have been around long enough that their faults and remedies are well known, My rebuild was @1000 as the core had damage. The unit bolts to the engine no problem at all.most people have no issues with the crossmember use a 350 or 200-4r mount , i wasn't that lucky but doable , after that the tv cable is a problem with many different routes depending on the carb u have . the shift linkage, I have column shift so i can not help you there but i have read about answers on this site.
beauty of this type of trans is that it is not computer controlled and is still a modern overdrive unit but i cannot tell yet how worthwhile it is until its off the hoist.
Mike

cwracer

Any thoughts on not using the lockup for the torque converter?

1970-W30

"Any thoughts on not using the lockup for the torque converter? " You risk the chance of the trans overheating and you lose the 250RPM drop to"5th gear" after it goes into 4th.......... the capability is there, why not use it.....

oldsbucket

this i my first install, i have a lock up tq, one member has said there is a cooling problem without it, another said there is not. a few hundred less rpm is a good thing although operating it is another project .
in addition to what other members may add have you called any of the vendors of course whoever you call will want you to use their system but have a wealth of free info

cwracer

I have a 2.73 rear ratio and was a but concerned the Rpm would be too low for highway cruising. Looks like my efi can control it, so it won't be an issue.

oldsbucket

yes you make a good point especially if u are in a hilly area. having the tc routed through a vacuum switch would help

jag1886

This is almost the same thing my transmission guy told me. A 200R4 does not have full oil flow to the cooler unless the transmission is in 4th and locked up, he didn't say the trans would overheat just that it won't last very long because of excess heat all the time. When you convert to a non lockup they actually grind out the oil passages in the pump to give full oil flow to the cooler all the time.

oldsbucket

I'll also throw this out for discussion: part of my conversion is a 7X20 brass cooler
imho running through the stock radiator cooler is counter productive and better to use an external cooler divorced from the radiator. why preheat the trans to the engine temp? ambient temp would have to be higher than your thermostat setting before this would be a problem .

I've been reprogrammed after i posted this i found that it is recommended to run the radiator cooler and that if air is not able to circulate over a trans cooler it will not be much help as in a traffic jam in hot weather, also that a trans needs to get to operating temp. so run in addition to the radiator cooler but not alone

matt69olds

Your trans guy has it back-wards. When the converter is locked the cooler flow is reduced. This prevents the fluid from cooing down too much due to the lack of heat from the converter slipping.

robbylaw442

OOOOO!!! this is good stuff! I am doing a 350th to 200r4 swap in my 75 supreme with a column shift. bccan, it sounds like you have ground some column detents in the past so can you elaborate a little more on this? from what im understanding, all gears are going to bein the same detents as on the 350th, I just wont be able to get low gear manually without some modifacations? from other posts ive read it seems that earlier columns didn't have detents in the column itself. is that correct? mine does have a detent for every gear with the exception of reverse and neutral which share a detent. my timing pointer is not an issue as it is busted and missing, and good luck finding one for a 75! any input on this column delema im going to encounter would be helpful. thanks!

bccan

How convenient I just happened to read through this thread. My installs have been in 68-72 "A" bodies & the only column shift was my blue car so i cannot be sure of details w/ a '75.

In the column bowl there is a bronzish material segmented detent bar. I did it a while back but iirc I ground the end off so there is no stop. The other variable is the length of shift arm & the width of slot that allows it to travel @ bottom end of column in engine bay. I ground the slot wider to allow more travel, again iirc I did that as a precaution more than finding it necessary. Probably best to mock things up before you mod anything & see.

I had to space the cross shaft bracket as noted above by putting a nut between frame & bracket for each mounting bolt, probably 3/8".

If you want parking brake to work a longer primary cable will be needed (TH 400) & the secondary cable shortened or changed to TH400 version.

Use an OE or universal carb brkt for TV cable.

robbylaw442

Thanks a bunch for the info! I was hoping I wouldn't have to modify, but its all good, at least I know what I'm up against! It will be a month or so before I dig in to this part of the project but I will post the results when I get it done.

quentinnw2

i want to know if i plan on riding the highway alot should i get the lock up style are the non lock up and why thanks.

jag1886

That lockup torque converter is worth about 1MPG and it can be a real PITA to make work right. I spent $100's on mine and finally gave up and had it converted to a non lockup and it works perfect.
A lot of people say it's easy, but it's bull, you can defiantly get it to engage, the problem is getting it to engage and disengage properly and smoothly under different driving conditions.