Kilmster

Last fall, my transmission all but died in my Delta 88. The car is in decent shape overall, but needs a bit of TLC, and is kind of a work in progress. I hadn't planned on doing anything like the transmission or engine for a while yet, but nothing ever goes as planned.


I'm pretty sure it will work, but I thought I'd ask the experts out here about putting in a TH2004R vs. the TH400 that's in it now. The price delta between having mine rebuild and having him built a 2004R to handle the 455 is only about $500, which is negligible, but I want to make sure I'm not doing more harm than good.


The original plan when I got around to rebuilding the engine was to do in kind of 68-70 W31 manner that they used in the cop cars. Around 400 horse and 500 pounds of torque. At that time I wanted to also redo the rear-end with a limited slip and and little lower gearing than what is in there now (assuming 2.56:1, but I haven't been in there to verify).


The tranny will take most of my money for the year for the old girl, so there won't be any rear end work for a while.


I know you'll all laugh, but I call this my 'Gentlemen's Muscle Car'. I want her to be able to tool along in a parade just fine, cruise down the highway like she was meant to, but also be able to go like a bat out of hell on occasion.


Thoughts? I don't want to create a monster that I'm always having to mess with to get it to shift right or anything.

rocketraider

Get the 200 built to take your engine and I don't think you'll have any issues. Only thing I'd be concerned with until you get deeper gears is the engine might lug badly on slight hills in OD, but I think I'm right there's a lot of flatland in South Dakota?

Get a carburetor TV cable bracket from any 307 Olds-equipped GM car. You might have to finagle the shift detents in the column and the dash quadrant, and not sure what you'd do for a backup light/ neutral start switch, but nothing insurmountable.

Kilmster

Until you get to the Black Hills, all we have around here is flat lands!

I'm really leaning towards the 2004R, just nervous about getting in over my head. Transmission guy is highly recommended, but I also want to make sure i'm not having to modify the transmission hump and everything. just looking for easy!

joe_padavano

If the TV cable is adjusted correctly, the trans will downshift long before the engine starts to lug, and frankly, the 455 has got to be making over 400 ft lbs at 1500 RPM anyway, so I don't even think it's possible to "lug" a BBO...

The only issue with installing the 200-4R will be the driveshaft. The 200-4R is the same overall length as a short tail TH350, and the D88s all used long-tail transmissions, so you're going to be about 6" short on the driveshaft. You'll also need a TH350 forward yoke when you have the new driveshaft made.

Fun71

Wow, how is that possible?

TexasT

A good trans builder and a good 2004r builder aren't always one in tje same. Does this builder have experience with 2004r?
I would want a billet shaft forward drum and dual feed the direct clutches with the power/torque you will put to it.

There are other things I would want done. Getting a good starting point core is important for the shifts to be "right". I am using an AA code from a Cadillac though the cz, brf, bq, and some of the other performace oriented vb/gov equipped units are easier as they have higher rpm upshift points.

joe_padavano

At this power and torque I would also go with the roller thrust bearings to replace the plastic thrust washers in several locations. CKPerformance sells these "rollerized" parts, as machining is required on some of the drums to clear the thicker roller bearings.

I don't know where the $500 difference comes from, but TH400s are fairly inexpensive since everyone builds these. There are only a handful of builders who really know how to build a 200-4R for these power levels and car weight. As an example, I bought just the internal parts for a 200-4R to build it myself and paid about $1600 from CKPerformance a number of years ago. I would expect a properly built trans to sticker at $2500 or so if you are buying it already built.

TexasT

The only place I went with a roller bearing over the plastic bushing was in the od planetary as this is a factory upgrade. The others at the center support and low/rev piston didn't get replaced with bearings though I did put new plastic pieces in. After talking to a mechanical engineer about it, I decided that for the extra cost it wasn't worth it. As long as you keep the fluid temp in control and the trans pressure at a decent level to produce the hydraulic wedge they should be fine. His opinion was that the plastic pieces where actually more reliable when the clearances are set properly and they plastic had a higher tolerance for pieces in the fluid as a bearing could get goofed up and not roll if the wrong particle gets lodged in there. This was his opinion.
I think setting the clutches/steels, band and internal clearances properly is way more important.
Then the vb and gov and setting up the tv. Getting the pump setup(I use the stock 7 vane setup with a pair of hard rings) and getting the pressure up with the larger boost, rev boost and spring. Some low buck vb mods also help. It might even need a tv spring depending on how worn the original is. A hard stator support and hard sun shell should be installed at each overhaul as inexpensive insurance as these aren't much($40-50 for the pair) and a failure hurts.

Fun71

That was what I was thinking for a built TH200-4R. I originally was going to post that either he was getting massively overcharged on the TH400 build ($2000+ for a TH400 is insane) or his TH200-4R build would be so cheap ($500 more than a run of the mill TH400) that it would disintegrate behind the 455 engine's torque.

Kilmster

Thanks all for the feedback. I think I'm getting what I was hoping for.


I've only talked to the guy, and we haven't gotten down to the nitty gritty on numbers, but verbally he indicated rebuilding me should be able to be done for just shy of a grand. Putting in the 2004R will be in the vicinity of $1500. Now he did say that if that's the route I wanted to go, we'd discuss it get and a firmer price. Maybe it works out to be 1600 or 1700 - I don't know.


Admittedly, he's likely not building me a full on 'Art Carr' style TH2004R, but I'm wondering if I really need that. My local guy claims he's build plenty of 2004R's rated for 550 horse and had them behind all kind of engines - big blocks included and never had one come back to him. Now my 455 will likely not make anywhere near 550 horse, but that should equate to being able to handle 550 pounds of torque because they should be equal at 5250 RPMs.


My car is a big old girl, and when I get to the engine, it will be a mostly docile build, but still definitely not stock. I have seen other trannies going for about the same money (only not installed) with similar specs, so I don't think it's out of line. I'm just wondering if I really need all those bells and whistles. Another grand would be enough to redo my rear-end.


Thanks again for all the feedback! I don't want to cheap out, but I often oversell myself on what I really need, and with this thing being a money pit on a good day, I don't want to spend more than what I need, but at the same time, I don't want to have to redo the same component twice.


Thanks!


Mike

joe_padavano

Those numbers seem backwards. As I said, the PARTS alone for my 200-4R build were over $1600. Get your guy to tell you exactly what upgrades he has included in that number. Simply using Atlo friction parts is NOT sufficient.

joe_padavano

By the way, if you are serious about this, spend the $80 and get a copy of the 200-4R build manual that CKPerformance puts out. Even if you are not doing the work, you will have a very deep understanding and appreciation of what is necessary to properly build one of these. Be an educated consumer.

hookem horns

Thought about the same when my TH350 died a few months back. You would be very luckly to get the 200-4R for just $500 more as others say, but that's probably just the cost of the transmission. Unless he is supplying the transmission and you are doing the install, the killer is shop time. They have to install and adjust the TV cable, modify the drive shaft, etc. so the hours pile up compared to keeping the TH400 and that is not even counting the rear end. I was using a shop and finally decided there were higher priorities for me than OD, as much as I wanted it with a 3:42 rear end.

Fun71

Kinda the same thing here. I calculated that with $2500-$3000 for a built TH200-4R I would never break even on fuel mileage improvements, and turning 3000 RPM on the highway doesn't bother me at all. Ended up getting the TH350 rebuilt for $800, including removal/installation.

Redog

200R4 and call it a day.

Yes you will need the TV cable from an 80's GM car and see if you can snag the bracket too. It will bolt right to the top of the bolts on the carb

matt69olds

The forward clutch hub is 400 buck by itself, and that should be considered a mandatory upgrade.

Machine the overdrive piston the equvilant of one friction disc, then place a extra friction between the 2 steel plates in the overdrive clutch. Use a Alto High enegry band. The Trans-Go shift kit includes the big servo for second gear, thats another mandatory upgrade.

I would 2nd buying the CK book, its well worth the price. It covers all the upgrades I mentioned< and plenty more. If your builder pays attention to the proper clearances and build procedure, and you make sure the TV cable is right, the 2004r is a very good trans.