Macadoo

I'm wondering what the options are for lockup control when swapping in a 200-4r on my '71 CS.

1. A toggle switch on the dash - with my memory?!
2. Art Carr's Compushift Mini Computer Lockup Controller - a steep $300

Any other options?

joe_padavano

Dozens. Type converter lockup control into Google.

Macadoo

Well sir, I will do that. I guess I've just been looking at the builder's options.

Qwik71442

I run a Vacuum Switch through a brake switch and then a
Bowler time delayed module. Works perfect.

oddball

There's tons of ways to do it, just depends on how much time and money you want to invest.
The compushift is a really neat unit, but so far we've blown the guts out of four of their line pressure sensors. They've been good about replacing them, but it's frustrating. Also requires electronic speedo signal.

You can cobble together a cruise control brake switch, a normally open 4th gear switch (goes in the valve body), and a vacuum switch. Choosing the correct vacuum switch is an exercise left to the reader - there are a bunch of OEM ones from the 80's in the boneyards, plus there are adjustable units.

Run a circuit from IGN power to the brake switch (normally closed when the pedal is not engaged), to the vacuum switch (engages when vacuum is over a threshold) into the tranny to the 4th gear switch (closes when tranny is in 4th). This setup will engage when cruising in 4th, disengage when accelerating enough to drop vacuum below the threshold, and disengage when hitting the brakes. Getting the right vacuum setting for your engine and driving habits is the tough part.

Various aftermarket kits are portions of that methodology. I haven't found a complete aftermarket kit that I'm happy with.

oddball

Right, I forgot about the time delay. That's a good addition.

An awesome general purpose timed switch:
http://www.3rdbrakeflasher.com/timer...mer-p-192.html

bccan

I'm also a proponent of brake switch (cruise control type), vac switch (ported) and Bowler delay module. I only switch it on if cruising constantly above 50mph but it works damn near like a factory setup. Would only be better if it could read my mind & stay locked up when I have to close the throttle to coast or wait on a left lane lingerer.

cdrod

Mike Kurtz at Century Transmission has a solid reputation for beefing up these TH2004R trans for the Buick GN guys. He will be building my trans (If I ever get out of bodywork jail). He recommended using a 4th gear switch in the trans to always lock up the torque convertor whenever the trans is in 4th gear (OD). He said this approach will completely eliminate the "hunting" lock-unlock problems that some have with the vacuum lock-up kits. This recommendation is for my street driven, daily driver with a 375cid stroked small block and 3:42 gears.

therobski

X2 I used the TCI lock up wiring kit on the 64 F-85 Pro-Touring build with a highly modified GN B401 200-4R. CDROD if you run out of time to have the trans gone though Jack Laswel is up here in the Dallas area. He is also very well known in the GN arena for the motor builds as well. One of his toys is an street driven 86 GN 830hp on BIG boost. He built my trans for me.

BlackGold

I like this approach, as long as the engagement is delayed (intentionally or naturally by the valve body) so that the 3-4 shift is complete before the TCC engages. Otherwise you get a big jerk. I'd also consider installing an override switch so that I could just turn it off for stop-and-go city driving below 40 mph.

cdrod

Robski:
Thanks for the trans builder recommendation. I have a good running core from an '88 Monte Carlo and plan on installing is as is and having Mike at Century R&R the trans for the rebuild. I didn't know a 2004r could handle 830HP considering they started life behind 265HP 3.8L V6. My combo should be around 375-400HP and as close to 400 lb-ft. of torque. Sorry for the thread-jack.

Rodney

Macadoo

No apologies necessary, Rodney. I've enjoyed reading it all. And thanks everyone for the info. Again, more homework to do but it does sound like this is the way to go;
"He recommended using a 4th gear switch in the trans to always lock up the torque convertor whenever the trans is in 4th gear (OD."
Has anyone gone this rout?

Macadoo

This the place?
http://www.centurytransmission.com/2004r-stage-1
I wonder what they charge if you don't have a core to supply.

cdrod

Mac:
Good cores are getting hard to find for this trans, and there are certain models that are superior for a performance build. I picked up a good, used, CRF coded trans out of an '88 Monte Carlo for $150 that was listed locally on Craiglist. I've seen a few show up in the Dallas and San Antonio Craigslist pages, you just have to check on a regular basis. Stay away from the AA coded trans from Cadillacs and the more luxury oriented cars as they take alot of work to firm up the valve body programming. Think long, smooth, shift-overlap, not exactly what you want from a muscle car - LOL. I don't know if Mike at Century has any 2004-r cores, but I'd give him a call - he's a very nice guy and willing to talk about your plans for the transmission. I've attached some helpful files below.

Macadoo

Awesome documents, thank man. Midwest Converters (Rockford) called me and they have a BQ code Grand National out of an '85 Buick. The trans would have a one-year warranty. That and the fact that they're a drivable distance is starting to win out.
What upgraded parts should I insist on? Hardened stator, hardened direct drum, etc.? Keep in mind I know nothing about the internals of a transmission. I know what a stator in an electric motor is so I assume it's similar. But I look at CK's list and it's a mile long.

cdrod

Mac:
Here's another good read that has some history of the improvements GM made as they refined these trans and some specific "upgrades" when rebuilding these to make them live behind stronger engines. I haven't been down this road yet with my own car, but I've saved these files for future reference. Also, if you visit the ROP forum (RealOldsPower) there's a guy named Dr.Dan who is very knowledgeable on the 2004r trans. A quick search should turn up several of his posts about do's and don't when rebuilding these trans.

JohnnyBs68S

I used a kit that consisted of a simple relay that is energized by the brake light circuit, and the NC contacts wired between a +12V source and the 4th-gear switch in the trans. The 4th gear switch remains open (lockup dis-engaged) until the trans is in 4th gear, then right after the shift, the TC locks up. As soon as you touch the brake, the relay is energized, opens the circuit and dis-engages the lockup. CK built my trans and there is no jerk when it locks up shortly after shifting into 4th (there is a slight delay between the shift to 4th and lockup, probably due to the 4th gear switch requiring about 1/2 second to react to whatever hydraulic pressure triggers it. Nice thing about that is if you need a slight "nudge" to accelerate, you can rely on engine torque and remain locked-up. If you need more thrust, the trans will downshift to 3rd, and when it does that, the 4th gear switch will dis-engage the lockup. For as simple as this setup is, it acts pretty much like I would expect a factory setup to work.


If you are drag racing and want the lockup to remain disengaged after the shift to 4th, simply install an additional switch in series between the relay and trans.

joe_padavano

To be honest, I can't imagine any scenario where you'd use fourth during a drag race.

Macadoo

Hey Johnny, that sounds like what Rodney was talking about. Automatic lock after shifting into 4th.
Midwest says they install a vacuum switch in the trans and all I need do is hook up the three-wire harness (I think I saw this on youtube as well).
They also said they have a BKF code '87 Grand National trans but the core charge is steep, especially since I don't have a 200-4r to trade. $700 core charge. I think I read somewhere that the '87 trans is somewhat coveted. He doesn't recommend the added expense for my mild small block. He also mentioned wanting to save it for a GN resto.

olds 307 and 403

I would be worried about lugging your motor if it locks as you enter 4th gear, you do realize it will be crawling in 4th with 3.42 gears. I am at 1850 rpm at 60 mph with a short 25" tall tire. I use a toggle switch by the way, simple. Just like fan controllers, they never seem to stay working.

dalilama

Hey Mac - would this do as a core?
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/pts/5531479838.html

joe_padavano

This is why you also want a vacuum switch in the circuit. When manifold vacuum drops (as you open the throttle), the TCC unlocks.

Of course, I've never understood the concern with "lugging the motor". If RPMs drop, the trans downshifts into third. I've now had four 1980s B-body cars with 200-4R, 2.7x gears, and the pavement-ripping 140 HP 307, and lugging that beast was never a problem...

Macadoo

Whoa, for a second I thought it said grand national, lol. If you have a look at the first file that cdrod uploaded, it's a list of codes. I don't see CRF listed. Possibly just a mistake.
But Brian, I think I've decided to go with Midwest Converters in Rockford and they don't need me to find a core (unless it's a GN). But thanks for looking! And if you DO come across a GN, you'll let me know? (or keep it for yourself).

dalilama

The adventure begins for you Mac. Glad to help in any way I can. Good Luck!!!

Macadoo

Thanks Brian!

cdrod

Mac:
I found the CRF code on another website listed as an '85-'88 Monte Carlo (not the SS version) with a 305 Chevy engine.

Macadoo

Thanks Rod, I did to. Just a simple search but I couldn't find out if it was a bothways case. But I don't need one now, anyway, since Midwest has them.

Firewalker

It all depends. There is the all out race where you want the other guy dead, even if you have to hit him with shrapnel from your blown motor or transmission. Win at any cost. In that case, you might just want to lock the converter on the line, and go for it. The converter will automatically lock when it hits second and stay locked until you unlock. Maximum rear gear. The second more milder method is deeper than normal rear gear where hits 4th 2/3rds of the way down the track, and ease off the throttle in 4h or just before but just maintain the speed. Depends on what type of racing and who you are racing. It also depends on is it a 1,500 or a 3,000 dollar build. A 200 dollar lockup converter or a 1000 dollar one.

joe_padavano

I'll try this again. The discussion above talked about an automatic lockup in fourth gear. There was concern about that in a drag race. I still maintain that there is NO scenario where you would ever shift into FOURTH gear using a 200-4R during a quarter mile or eighth mile drag race. You just don't need it. Why would you ever want a 0.67 gear set on the track? The way the wiring was described, lockup only occurs in fourth, so the discussion of its use on a drag strip was moot.

olds 307 and 403

I never use OD on purpose at the track or the lock up converter. Just with mild 3.42 gears and taller tires he will be running at 1750 rpm at 60 mph at locking up at low rpm may cause some lugging issues.

Macadoo

I was just looking at that myself. Does the trans shift to 4th no matter the speed? I suppose I could always manually shift to 3rd for tooling around the street.

joe_padavano

Of course not. Just like any other non-computerized AT, the upshifts are controlled by the valve body, the governor, and the connection to the engine (in this case the TV cable, on other transmissions the vac modulator). For the 200-4R, the TV cable varies the throttle valve (and thus oil pressure) based on (wait for it...) engine throttle opening. Wider throttle openings increase line pressure, with delays upshifts.

Macadoo

Thanks Joe. It was sounding like it was solely controlled by vacuum. I"m learning
How about a deep oil pan? Will I need that? I do like to stomp on it once in a while.....or more

Firewalker

No vacuum to these. Just cable and electrical for lockup.

Deeper pans are advised by some along, with a 700r4 filter always. A pressure gauge 300-350 psi can tell you a lot, and not that expensive, and the life blood of the transmission is the pressure. You need certain pressures to check the tv cable settings are correct. You can tell if the fluid is moving away from the pickup, in your pan on takeoff, depriving the trans of pressure monetarily and burning it up.

Macadoo

Yes, I read it can take only two or three times being even partly starved for fluid to burn it up. I think the deeper pan is 1-5/16" deeper. Hefty price tag on those things though.

pross4

I have recently installed a 200-4r from CK Performance behind a BBO in a 72 Cutlass Convertible. This trans has 4th gear lockup feature on it that I wired into a cruise control/brake light switch. It was very easy to hook up and wire. The trans locks up about a second after shifting into 4th gear. I have 3.42 rear gears and at 65 mph the engine is turning about 1700-1800 rpms. I really like the OD. My car shifts into 4th at about 47-49 mph. If you are really light on the throttle it will shift into 4th at 40-42 mph. I do not have the vacuum switch installed on mine yet. I am going install one because if you are cruising and slowly decelerate to 35 mph it will stay in 4th gear and then when I try to accelerate it needs to unlock the torque converter to get the rpm's up where I want them to be. I can keep pressing the accelerator and it will drop into third also or I can manually shift into third. The vacuum switch will be a bigger advantage on the highway when you want to pass somebody quickly. If the TC unlocks you will pick up 400-600 rpm depending on your stall speed. Mine is 2200-2400. I don't always want to drop to third just to pass someone quickly.
I am very happy with the trans other than the fact that I have leak which I cannot find a way to stop. It is leaking out of the rear seal. I have replaced the seal three times and have also replace the bushing in the rear of the trans that the yoke rides in. The tool to replace the bushing cost me $145. I have called Chris a couple of times but he hasn't called me back yet. I will try again and see if he has any solutions. If any of you have any ideas please let me know.

Firewalker

There is some disagreement on if deep pans are needed on typical street cars. And thats why I said use a pressure gauge and test at take off, to see if there is any pressure drop. The builder of mine was quite well known at the time and said it was not needed. The pressure gauge will tell and you need one to check pressure before ever trying to leave the first time to drive anywhere.

cdrod

X2 on the pressure gauge suggestion! The problem with the 200-4r filter is it picks up fluid from the top of the filter (most filters pick-up from the bottom) so it's really easy to uncover the filter under acceleration and cornering. Some guys run the stock filter and over-fill the trans by 1 quart to make sure the filter stays covered with fluid. Others run a 700r filter (which picks up from the bottom) but I think you need the deeper pan for this. The links below compare the heights of a stock pan with a low-profile and deep-pan from PML Covers.

http://www.yourcovers.com/transpan_9917.php

http://www.yourcovers.com/transmissi...tock_cf_lg.jpg

Firewalker

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?267954-2004r-transmission-pan


http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80269

http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/20...-trick.316242/

Deeper pan is not needed, to use the 700 filter. There is a slight modification needed for a stock pan. Pressure gauge pressure gauge LOL

olds 307 and 403

X3 on the pressure gauge. When my trans shifted soft, my gauge told me it was only 180 psi in drive. Switching to a .555" boost valve brought it to 215-220 psi, which is acceptable. I think it is this stupid 13 vane rotor, the pressure was fine in reverse, low and 2nd. I think the stock pan will be fine, he should just overfill it a quart. I am pretty sure I got an early 4L60E filter to work in the stock pan but could be wrong.