gbodyguru

"Help" ;- )

I scanned it, (no codes) and the 2-3 shift is fine ,,, after that (at about 45 MPH) the overdrive "slams in". The thing achieves good Closed Loop ... T.P.S. C.T.S. and V.S.S. are all a "go", just NO apply.

When I lightly press the brake, the overdrive remains on (as I prefaced). I also pulled the Cruise dump switch out (good pwr. and all is OK). and when I ground "A" too "F" I still have no TCC.

I pulled out the ECM and it looks to be a stock PROM ... Perhaps this is a pressure switch issue or Solenoid ? *I have not touched the Transmission internals yet.

Any advice would be appr. :- )

Professur

The TCC is a long life consumable. It's a clutch inside the torque convertor. It's activated by a solenoid on the valve body.

My first question would naturally have to be ... when's the last time the fluid and filter were changed?

gbodyguru

Having just acquired the car, "I don't know" ... but in a generic sense of things, it seems to make more sense, ta have some idea before going "in" (FIRST). The Filter will be changed (and what oil I can get out) after.

Shifting points / engagement seem fine (and immead.) so, I doubt a filters tied in with this issue. I'm gonna see "who's who" (the wiring) , and see if I can hear the Solenoid "click" inside.

Thank-you very much for weighing in Sir !

gbodyguru

Just changed the fluid and filter ... *(I replaced the TCC Solenoid as well). Still NO TCC engage ! Grounding "A" to "F" I DO have a light (down at the Trans. plug).

I then road-tested car, and NO TCC apply still (while it was, again "jumpered from A to F at the ALDL).

JUST FYI HERE: I pulled the two pressure switches out, and the 2 terminal switch (N.O.) close's (with shop air pressure) ... and the other switch (think it's a 3rd gear Pressure switch) is "N.C." and when applying shop air too it, it too "closes".

Of note is that it took a hell of alot of air pressure to "open" the single wire switch !

Again: any help is appr.

TexasT

Have you looked at the torque converter? What stampings and color is it? You may have to pull the inspection cover but it is only four fasteners.
As above, are you hearing the solenoid "click" when the aldl is jumped?

gbodyguru

HI) *Yes to the Solenoid, and again: Jumping "A to F" (the TCC) won't engage, or ("click") that same solenoid until the 3rd gear switch perquisite is met. Anyway, after driving the car (again) NO TCC.

Funny you would mention the Torque Converter, I think THAT is my problem ! Tho I am not much of a Transmisson Guy, I do know someone whom IS.

What's interesting, is the TCC, (on the Scanner) is always a "no". ALWAYS ! *Very soon I will pull the Transmission and have the "pump" checked, (and replace the Torque Converter).

"I'll let ya know"

*THANK-YOU for your thoughts / taking your time to help !!

TexasT

I'd have to look at a wiring diagram, but I'm pretty sure on a turbo Buick the aldl jump trips the lockup in any gear after first. Might be different on the olds. Can you apply 12v to the solenoid? With out knowing if the solenoid works it is hard to move to the converter. At least for me I'd rather replace the solenoid than the converter. I don't know the history of the car. Someone could have swapped in a non lockup, which is why I asked about the converter and its makings.

donuteater306

Just a thought...check your thermostat. Years ago when our 84 Cutlass (Y) code acted this way, the thermostat was stuck open. We were still going into closed loop, but no TCC lock-up.

Forget it, I just read that you jumped the ALDL.

gbodyguru

I did look at that (it's OK) I'm going to pull the Trans. as all signs point to the Converter. (The 3rd gear switch *think*) must "see" pressure before apply and I did already put a TCC Solenoid in BTW.

THANKS !! *I'll let you know.

gbodyguru

Your VERY CORRECT Texas !! I WILL look at what you "site" !
*I should know soon*

gbodyguru

Update: I pulled the trans. and had a fellow find the TCC hole was "plugged" ... He cleaned it up, & I installed the trans. NOW I have "nothing", the Trans "went out" (only 1st gear).

I pulled it again, only to find metal in the pan. So now I'm having it overhauled.

*more to come*

Professur

Better to find in the driveway than on the interstate.

gbodyguru

That's for sure: I lost it after only 3 miles of driving, after it free-reved I pushed it Home ! "Gese what a pisser".

Professur

Heh ... and all the while pushing it home thinking "Man, I'm sure glad I'm not driving one of those stupid B body monstrosities"

TexasT

Here is some knowledge one of the 2004r gurus dropped on me. Maybe it will help you get your lock up going.

Don Alkyv6 Knowledge

The fact that when you unplug the connector, the TCC is no longer engaging tells me you
have an electrical problem.
The first thing to do is make sure the the ground circuit in the transmission is not
grounding in the pan somewhere. If the new soleniod came with a complete internal harness,
then I doubt that is the problem.
If that checks out OK, then the next thing to do is to check the grounding circuit
external of the transmission.
The 'A' terminal on the trans connector should be hot all the time with the key on.
The only exception would be if the brake pedal is depressed.
The 'D' terminal circuit is the grounding circuit for the TCC solenoid. It is the
circuit that is commanded by the ECU to engage L/U. This is where I think your problem
is going to be. When the computer is not commanding L/U, you should see 12V on this
circuit. When the computer grounds this circuit to cause L/U, you should be low, or 0 volts.
If the 'D' circuit is low all the time, there is either a fault with the computer,
or the 'D' circuit is shorted to ground.

gbodyguru

Hi Rich: [I]I meant too say A to "D" ... (not F). You are so correct on ALL that you say, but after I changed the Filter, TCC Solenoid, and Fluid (+ checking the switches) I found after 1 mile of driving, that I only had "1st" gear, (I did get 2-3 shift but only after 5K RPM plus).

I pulled the Trans OUT, ands looked inside only to find Metal, (and a round - steel collar off something) AND: The Trans. place said the "metal" was hanging up the D-Tent Cable valve ... anyway; It's being totally overhauled NOW.

More to come ! *THX for weighing in*

gbodyguru

Well, a new rebuilt trans. is now installed, and STILL NO T.C.C. apply. Grounding "B" (TCC Ground) yields nothing (still no apply). I can watch test light going out when depressing the brake pedal. (So the dump switch / pwr. circuits are OK on Ckt. pin "A") ... Scanning the car (while driving) the "3rd gear" parameter is always "yes". Even "key-on" (engine NOT running) it's STILL always yes. MPH, coolant value (190*), and TPS (and MAP) are OK ... I DO get overdrive at 53 MPH and I'm told this is a "force-on".

I please wondered if someone knows IF the PROM (in the original ECM) is the correct one ... It reads "Delco 0810DFC". The other numbers are: "Malaysia 980, then "Delco D-6630 & below this:" "8349A" & 28378. (These are ALL the Numbers / letters on the PROM).

Tho "direct grounding" "B" down at the transmission puts the PROM (kinda) too "rest", BUT: I NEVER get a "on" message with the Tech-1 scanner. (above 40-45 MPH.)

Getting discouraged fast here ... any advice is appr.

Again: This has a NEW TCC Solenoid, Filter, and the pressure switches seem "OK".

gbodyguru

Addl info: The Re-builder says the "D-Tent" Cable was "jammed up". He cleaned, and completely disassembled the thing, and then He checked the clutches, along with the "color" (of those same clutches) ... they seemed / looked "normal". so He left them alone. He then said He "pressure tested" everything, and: He also said the thing is "pressure governed". IOW: (moving the D-Tent / and having it correct, means EVERYTHING with this tranny's building pressure "nature").

So then: I moved the D-Tent all the way forward, and then while driving it GOT the overdrive too "force-on" (at 54 MPH). I am positive there still is NO TCC, as dumping the "carefully checked" T.C.C. circuit (or pressing the brake pedal) changes nothing. (The RPM's).

Does anyone know if this Trans (a 2004R) was used in the Buicks "Grand National's" and "T-Types" ? *I have a feeling I have a pressure issue (internally) with this one that I have NOW.

The NEW Torque Converted I installed has a 2025 RPM Stall. The original Torque Converter (it was an OEM Original) was (I'm told) a 1500-1600 stall unit. I specifically TOLD the Parts People that this is a "9" engine, and NOT a regular "Y" 307 Engine.

Anyone have an opinion ? Could the "higher stall" be my issue ? (I think NO)

Again: The "Book" says the converter I INSTALLED, (and am now using) IS for this exact appl.

Thx. for reading / any input. :- )

TexasT

http://tvmadeez.com/article/index.php

Hit the link and do some reading before you torch up some clutches in your trans.

The 2004r was the trans installed in 84-87 Turbo Regals. That said the BRF and BQ code 2004r that were installed had different calibrations in the vb and governor. Whiles these calibrations can be duplicated, it isn't easy and I doubt anyone will share their hard earned secrets.

I am using an AA code out of a Cadillac in my Regal and it works pretty well. You might go wrecking yard hunting and see if you can score an AA 2004r for your car. You don't say what code you are using but pretty much any of the lo-po units are hard to make into performance pieces with out a lot of spring swapping. Some of the valves are different size and this is another hurdle.

As far as the third gear thing I doubt your vb has a third gear switch as only the above mentioned bq and brf and the TTA had the third gear switch from what I have seen. So the computer defaults to third on.

Are you hearing the lock up solenoid click? If you put 12v to it does it click?

You probably should hook up a pressure gauge and see where you are at with your trans.
you can check out my build thread here. http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=3729.0

I have some pix of the pressure gauge setup I used and info on what i put into my build. Let me know if you have questions.

gbodyguru

So nice of you to try an help (thanks) ... I can't hear anything because it's not DIRECT. That "power" (well one leg) ... goes to (through) a pressure switch FIRST (IOW it's not direct to the TCC Solenoid). so if (& the Trans Guy called this a "3rd gear" switch) that is the case, then (with car running) I'd never hear it. (after that prerequisite was "met" on that 2 pole switch that's screwed into the valve body).

To me, it MUST BE in the trans. as when (again) I ground "B" it should almost instantainsly come on AFTER 3rd gears "met". I will investigate preasures next I guess.

Bear in mind, I inhearited this problem ... (I bought, then drove the car home (a short distance) so "someone" may have done something.

BUT WHY would you disable a TCC feature ? "crazy". I HATE aftermarket anything ! ... "I just want a TCC feature and a nice EGR chuggle" ;- )

BlackGold

Because one failure mode of the TCC is that it hangs up while applied, causing the car to stall when you come to a stop. Disabling it is cheaper than fixing it.

Also, many people are annoyed by the constant engage/disengage of the TCC while driving around town. If it's working the way the factory intended, there's no fixing it other than to disable it. I bet a lot of mechanics and even dealers have disabled TCCs over the years just to make a customer happy.

gbodyguru

I remember doing just that ! (back in the day).

gbodyguru

Another update: Everywhere I seem to "go", people ask me; "do you hear the TCC Solenoid "click" ? (when batt. voltage is applied).

My answer (I said this above) is HOW ? (car would need to be running / wheels turning and the "noise" would prohibit my hearing anything !)

Anyway, inside the Trans there are TWO pressure switches. I have a feeling there need be only ONE. I.O.W., BEFORE the TCC Solenoid gets "power", the 2 terminal switch must let that "message" pass. In my other cars, I have only the ONE pressure switch (the single terminal one terminal) and, as I recall, and I asked the re-builder if most have TWO. (He said "no", usually only JUST the ONE. *This 2 terminal switch looks to have been ADDED-ON ! The wiring harness does NOT have factory ends on this particular switch, and I'm thinking I'll "bypass" it (or abandoned it) and run that "signal directly.

This two bladed switch is mounted in a brass 45* elbow, and AGAIN ... (I think) it doesn't belong there ! Am I wrong ? *and WHY, would "someone" add this ?

I'm going to pull the pan the 3rd time ;- ( , and eliminate this too see what happens. It seems to me that the computer (in the manor that it provides "ground") should KNOW the "when" to apply !

*The "directions" (and the "when to apply) the TCC" are a function of the PROM correct ?

Rich: what do you think ? *again: pwr. MUST go "through" this 2 pole switch BEFORE it reaches the Solenoid as it is NOW.

This would leave the one "4th gear" single prong switch ONLY, (were I too do this).

Watched your Video and LEARNED alot ! *PLEASE weigh in here OK ?*

Tom ;- )

BlackGold

If you REALLY want to know all the factors that go into engage/disengage of the TCC (there are a lot of them), you need the factory service manual for your year car. Also, you can monitor what the computer is commanding by using a voltmeter on one of the pins on the maintenance socket under the dash. Take it for a drive and you can test out all of the conditions listed in the manual.


It may have varied from year to year, but basically the computer commands engagement when you're above a certain MPH, the throttle is less than half but not at idle, the engine temp is above a certain number, and the transmission is in 3rd or 4th. The brake pedal plays in there, too, but I think that's just a mechanical switch AFTER the computer's output. Oh, and I've also observed a time delay that the computer uses (and I haven't seen this documented in the service manual). It won't engage the TCC until about 2-1/2 minutes after starting the engine, even if the engine is already up to temperature.

gbodyguru

Update: (Thanks BRIAN !) *for the above.

I opened the trans. back up, and decided to eliminate (I said this above) the "2 pole" switch. SUCCESS !! I had a GREAT 2-3 shift, then "overdrive" (at 52 MPH) and finally, I saw the "on" for the TCC and GOT IT !

BUT: (of course) ... I lost it. *I'll explain: I drove the car about 10 miles and enjoyed an "on" TCC ... pressing the brake, I could observe (and feel) it going 'in and out'. Convinced I "had it fixed" I drove it some more, and that was it. Now its dead again with an "off" message at speeds near 60 MPH. WHY ? "what happened" ?

Now (if things are working correctly) to get the TCC to work (well when it DID work) I MUST have the overdrive come in FIRST. THEN, (after that 50+ MPH speed) is when I had (or "got") the TCC apply. *In all my other cars I got this (and get this) soon after 3rd gears "met", then after that I get overdrive. (I'll guess this all happens at about 40 MPH).

I'm baffled as to WHY this cars different then 3 other 2004R's but DON'T care as long as I "get" it. Again, it worked fine for 10 miles, then (after coming up to a stop), I drove it back up to 55 MPH for a sustained 5 miles ... "Nodda". (no TCC) ;- (

So now, I guess I'll start by grounding "A too F" and see what it does. *As I understand it NOW, the ECM "see's" the 4th gears been "met", and then it looks at: constant speed, coolant above "X", closed loop, MAP P/N switch etc... and it says: "OK, now you get TCC ! *THIS is what the single pin switch in the Trans. is for (if I'm correct) ... The ECM "see's" 4 th gear, looks too it's "programming", and when that criteria's "met" it says: "OK, go ahead".

Again: I HAD IT, then LOST it ! "boy this is really gettin old FAST". I know, I know ... "get the Manual" ! *But; (I think this particular example), THIS issue's due to an "added on" switch that someone installed for whatever the reason.

NOW: (I couldn't before) I can pwr. "A to B" and in fact HEAR the TCC with the key-on. A half dozen people have told me I SHOULD. *So that's "fixed".

More to come .... "whew" ;- (

Thanks ALL !

gbodyguru

ANOTHER Update: I drove it again, and I think I have a PROM issue *(The PROM ID IS "813" if anyone can help / tell me if it's O.E.M. PROM). Anyway, Grounding "A to F" ALWAYS, and IMMEAD. brings up the T.C.C. ... *EVERY TIME.

The Scanner (again a "TECH-1") is always a "no" for TCC. (When it should bring up an "on" flag scanning the thing), *There is some "interesting" info.: The A/C works fine, and scrolling down the Scanner Menu it says "off" (which it was) ... BUT, the "A/C Clutch" says "on". Also: The 3rd gear parameter still says: "yes" (at all times even with key-on, engine off). Another point of interest is the "knock Signal" parameter ... it's always a "yes", BUT: with engine off it says "no".

I DO NOT think I even have a knock sensor ! (I haven't looked tho). Anyway, that's where I am NOW. Each time (once again) when I flip the switch (from A ta F) I get what I'm after ! (The TCC's up and going) The issue (again) NOW is the "why" (as to WHY the ECM is not doing it for me) !

I don't recall seeing a a PROM ID that was EVER just 'three numbers' ... so if anyone can Scan there's, I'd sure like to know.

Again: Great TPS, MAP, Closed Loop, P.N Signal, Dwell, MPH ... "it's all there and OK".
*The Computer SHOULD "call up" the T.C.C. yes ?

So NOW, I'll look for a knock sensor, and see what's up with that. After this, the only parameter on the Scanner I don't "understand" is "E-CELL". (whatever it means), it's ALWAYS "active" BTW.

Hum ... :- )

gbodyguru

E-Cell: "An E Cell is a measure of the electric potential contained within a Circuit".

??? "OH'OK" ...

gbodyguru

Thanks for all the great input / help you guys !! everything is PERFECT.

Off I go, and all my best.

Tom ;- )

TexasT

So, you got it squared away?

gbodyguru

Hi Rich,

The short answers "YES". All I need do NOW is check the ECM to see why it won't apply the T.C.C. on it's own. (I have a switch across the ALDL from "A" To "F" and when I flip same it applies immead).

On another note, I had some upsetting correspondence with a Gentleman here on an unrelated topic, and I was accused of wrong-doing. I haven't the time, nor do I want to get upset any further over the matter, so I thought it best to just leave.

Forum's can breed some strange people ... "that's almost a given". But in this example it got ugly, and I don't need that. If I do WRONG, I expect to be called out / held to account for it ! * but I did nothing "wrong" and this Guys email's said enough.

You know the old antage: "a person convinced against their will, is of the same opinion STILL" ? *That says it all.

Anyway, thanks to all of you whom VERY MUCH helped me with this "issue at hand".
I couldn't have done it without ya !

Best, Tom :- )

TexasT

Good you have it worked out.
I wouldn't let one goof ball that is making accusations run you off.
Hate to see anyone not come back. I'm sure there is a way to "ignore" this individual if you look for it in the settings.

Allan R

^^^ This. I have to admit that your conversation about the shift issue was like reading Greek (to me) but there's more good folks here willing to help than ones that are dufus's.

Enjoy the car! Post a picture of it sometime?

gbodyguru

My issue is ("was") the 4th gear pressure switch ... WOULD ANYONE Know the P/N if that component / and WHERE I can get it ?

Thanks ! (1984 200 4R Trans. / Single Terminal)

gbodyguru

Never-mind ... JUST FOUND a Thread (here) ... I'm all set with a P/N.