Seff

My 72 is just rebuilt, by yours truly, and as I look at it, it has noticeable positive camber - the top of the front tires are further inward than the bottom. I assume this will wear and tear my tires, as per the chassis manual. There's no more than a 1/4" of shims behind the rear upper suspension arm to frame bolt on both sides, the front one being straight against the frame, yet I still have positive camber. Am I overlooking something here?

olds1968

check your control arm bushing upper/lower probably worn out had a similar problem and replacing them fixed it.

Seff

The upper ones had recently been replaced before the rebuild, the lower ones had not. I guess it never hurts to get new bushings.

Seff

Just an update for those reading: I drove the car around the parking lot with one 1/4" of shims on the rear upper frame to control arm bolt, which turned into a rather sloppy ride. This prompted me to increase the amount of shims on the rear bolt, giving it a total of 3/4". It now handles a lot better, and the camber is much closer to being straight.

The REAR of my car, however, is not level. the frame is about an inch higher in the pass side than in the driver side. Does the orientation of the rear springs play a part in this, do the shocks, or am I looking at the small rubber spacers in the springs being the culprits? My two cars came with two different kinds of rear spring distancers, one kind being of rubber and about 3" wide, the other being of hard plastic and much slimmer.

oldcutlass

So what your saying is your car needs minimum of a front end alignment + some repair parts possibly, and your rear springs are shot and supplented by spacers.

Seff

I don't know WHAT I'm saying, but you seem to be telling me that spacers are used only when rear springs are shot. Am I understanding that correctly? I've removed all spacers for the time being, and will see what kind of level that puts her at.

oldcutlass

Rear spring are very easy to change. You need to measure all 4 corners to see if where you have issues. A weak left front spring would make the right rear higher or visa versa. You may also have to place the front of the frame or the rear on jack stand to eliminate the front or the back. They all effect each other.

Seff

Ah, excellent, then I'll collect some data and try to determine a course of action from there. I'll report back when I have something to report.

oldcutlass

Sounds like plan, btw beautiful car.

Allan R

Double check your alignment specs on the 72 CSM page 3-6. I looked at my car and the shim packs are substantially more than 1/4". The only one that has no shims is the PS front.

Seff

I have some strange notion that they should be symmetrical, but I guess that measuring the tire instead on an old car like this is the wiser path to follow.

Highwayman

Spacers were often put in rear springs to raise the height of the car for appearance reasons or because the owner had oversized tires and needed clearance. It doesn't always mean the springs are shot. You say that you have removed the spacers? Good! Now you can check the level and see if you really need new springs or not.

I would recommend that you do not spend time or money on a front end alignment until you resolve all of the spring and ride height issues. A change in ride height can affect the alignment.

Seff

I'll start by measuring the springs/ride height as described further up, and then I'll do what needs to be done to make the rear behave. Then comes the final alignment of the front end. Doing as the CSM prescribes is still valid, yes? Because I can easily do that.

oldcutlass

If your after the stock stance the CSM is your bible. The manual tells you where to measure and what those measurements should be. Then make an educated decision on whether you would like to deviate from that for your own particular taste.

Allan R

Not necessarily. The shim packs will NOT be symmetrical. Especially when left side camber must be 1/2° more than right side.

Seff

I'm not after the stock stance, but the correct adjustments for avoiding horrible steering and excessive tire wear are still relevant, I should think. I've tried to eliminate some of the positive (outward - my sources don't agree which is negative and which is positive) camber when doing hard cornering, for safety reasons. Highway speeds are 80mph here, and I like to give myself all the chances I can get.

Seff

So, I checked front and rear independently. Rear right side was 1" higher than the left, while right front was 1/3" higher than the left. Left front spring end was not visible in the slot on the lower control arm, which I fixed so it now does.

Decided that looking at my spare spring set was a good idea, so I found the ones from the '71 - the two rear springs had a 3/4" difference in height, which makes me wonder if I got them mixed up with the '72 springs, and thus have one of each on the car.

Having jacked the rear and removed the shocks, my springs are still so tall that it's a pain to remove them. Ran out of time, but I was gonna use clamps to get them out.

Do you guys want pictures of the two kinds of spacers I have?

Highwayman

Pictures are always good.

Positive camber is when the top of the wheel leans out.

The reason to check factory measurement for ride height is to determine if the springs are worn out and sagging. What kind of stance do you want to end up with?

I think getting the level side to side is the most important thing to do for now. Since the back is more uneven than the front, it sounds like a problem with the rear springs to me. It sounds like you are on the right track to get the springs out and compare them. It would be nice to solve this problem without having to buy new ones. I'm sure it isn't as cheap and easy for you as it is for us.

Seff

I had an offer for rear springs at $200, though I could shop around and get it a bit cheaper than that.

The current stance is quite good, which has the rear lift points about two inches higher than the front lift points.

Eightupman

Lets go back to basics for a second. When you assembled the front control arms and the like, did you tighten the control arm bushings before you set the weight of the car on the springs, or after? If you went around and tightend everything prior to loading the springs for the proper ride height, then you may need to go back and start from scratch. Same for the rear, you should be tightening the control arms to its final spec with load on the springs.

John

Seff

That's a very good point, I may very well have torqued everything to spec (especially the rear) during frame assembly. Will loosening everything, bouncing all four corners of the car a few times, and then torquing them again do the trick?

I'm beginning to think that it's time for a ramp.

Highwayman

Yes, that's a good idea. And it's why we put our heads together. Thanks John!

That sounds good and should not cause you any front end alignment problems. Plus I like it.

oldcutlass

How hi was it with the spacers?

Eightupman

Not only that, but it will prevent the bushings from binding and possibly tearing, making you cuss when you sit and wonder why they wore out prematurely.

John

ent72olds

Very good point John. This critical step can make all the difference!

Seff

So, I loosened all the control arm bolt, at both ends, as well as detaching the shocks, and the rear is still crooked - no more or less than before. Home for lunch now - next thing I'll do is to switch the springs around, so the right sits in the left side and vice versa. If that doesn't change things, I'll start wondering how bent my frame might be. :P

The two kinds of spacers I have. The one on the left is rubber, the one of the right is hard plastic:
5fWFy.jpg

The stance of le vehicle:
OmAPH.jpg

oldcutlass

I'm waiting for the spring switch to see if the problem moves to the other side. $200 seems high for a set of rear springs, I think a set of moogs from the part store should be around $100.

Make sure that when your doing the measuring that wheels are pointed straight ahead.

Seff

I did the spring switch, but I'm not 100% certain I actually changed them, due to some confusion on my part. What I did didn't change a thing. I made a point of checking to make sure the springs were turned and seated correctly. Will get back to them after dinner.

MDchanic

Just to be sure we're all on the same page, here's the relavent portion of the '72 CSM:



Seff, I agree that 1" difference from left to right seems like more than it should be, but note that the factory spec. allows for ¾", so it's not too far out from what's allowed.

My personal feeling is that if the problem is not the springs (stays the same after swapping them), and your ride height is okay otherwise, I'd go with a machined circular spacer on one side to make up the difference. Just make sure to take into account differences in deflection at the spring perch vs the point where you're measuring, so as not to be surprised.

You can buy these (for too much money, especially considering you're in Europe) from Summit, Jegs, etc., and they look like this:



You can make one yourself from a piece of 3½" or 4" round stock:
Bore a 2½" hole 1" deep in the bottom.
If you want, you may put ½" threads (to bolt it to the orig. perch) in the center.
Turn the top 1" down to 2.4" to locate the spring

- Eric

Seff

Judging by the boxed rear arms and rear sway bar, I have the FE2 option, complete with the small extra control arm to frame metal pieces. That CSM page indicates that the rear should be lower than the front, which I know for a fact it isn't.

I'll switch the springs once more, just to be sure, and then if all else fails, I'll fabricate a suitable piece of metal to help my left spring out. I have a spare rear end that I can test it out on.

MDchanic

Well, yeah, it shows the rear riding ⅛" lower than the front (at those measuring points), but it also shows a +½" to -¾" tolerance in those values, so I wouldn't sweat it.

A Mercedes this isn't.

- Eric

Seff

The only reason the rear being crooked bothers me is that I notice it every time I see it. :P it doesn't seem to affect handling or anything.

Eating and then having another session of rear end spelunking with the dear thing now... >.>

Allan R

Seff, maybe it's just the shadows, but in all honesty that profile shot stance looks really good. Maybe post shots that show the left to right lean you're talking about (shot from behind/front?)

Seff

Here ya go, more car **** for you:
7PHto.jpg

sHQR6.jpg

E51vD.jpg

isIHQ.jpg

Doing the springs did nothing. I didn't do the spacer tonight since dad absconded with my welding gear.

Allan R

Head on looks fine
Left side looks fine
What's with the shocks hanging down there? The rear shot looks HORRIBLE has a very noticeable lean. Did you put a body in the trunk or something?

Seff

I didn't bother attaching the shocks for the picture, since they don't seem to influence the lean in the slightest.

As I said, noticeable lean. :P Doesn't help that my trunk lid is crooked.

Mikes65

The front stabilizer needs to be adjusted the same on each side or it can affect the ride height
This adjustment on my 65 straightened out a similar issue

Seff

I'll take the tension off both my sway bars and see if that helps.

oldcutlass

It seems to me that the left rear spring is weak, from the pictures. If you look up around the spring perches, is there any sign of damage? If not, I would spwawp them from left to right of use the extra springs you have and see if you can come up with a suitable setup.

Seff

I already switched left to right, several times - every configuration had the right rear higher than the left. My next wild-*** guesstimate is swaybars.