New Carb Won't Start 72 350 rocket
#82
So i'm DEFINITELY going to change my timing chain (i've been talking about it for a year now) I've ordered the C3006K Cloyes off rockauto (supposedly 350 Olds chain set), and also the timing gasket set that Eric (MDmechanic) suggested.
But i've had this problem before.
I would set the timing, 10 degrees BTDC, the car would run PERFECTLY.
All of a sudden one day, BAM timing would change by 30 degrees and i'd have to rotate the rotor.... I was thinking that my distributor hold down bolt was bad...
#83
Sounds like your timing chain has been misbehaving for some time.
I agree with the others - when you get an odd sound when cranking - either too "lumpy" or too "easy" the chain has probably jumped.
And if you were going to bend the valves, you would have done it already while cranking - no need for the engine to actually start. As the others have said, it's unlikely, but it DID happen to me once, on a 10.25:1 1970 350 with 106,000 miles, so it IS possible.
If it is your timing chain, you will probably be very happy with the results after you replace it. Don't forget to replace the water pump as well while you have it apart, since it'll be off anyway, unless of course you changed it recently, or it's a really fancy one in great shape.
Good luck!
- Eric
I agree with the others - when you get an odd sound when cranking - either too "lumpy" or too "easy" the chain has probably jumped.
And if you were going to bend the valves, you would have done it already while cranking - no need for the engine to actually start. As the others have said, it's unlikely, but it DID happen to me once, on a 10.25:1 1970 350 with 106,000 miles, so it IS possible.
If it is your timing chain, you will probably be very happy with the results after you replace it. Don't forget to replace the water pump as well while you have it apart, since it'll be off anyway, unless of course you changed it recently, or it's a really fancy one in great shape.
Good luck!
- Eric
#84
Sounds like your timing chain has been misbehaving for some time.
I agree with the others - when you get an odd sound when cranking - either too "lumpy" or too "easy" the chain has probably jumped.
And if you were going to bend the valves, you would have done it already while cranking - no need for the engine to actually start. As the others have said, it's unlikely, but it DID happen to me once, on a 10.25:1 1970 350 with 106,000 miles, so it IS possible.
If it is your timing chain, you will probably be very happy with the results after you replace it. Don't forget to replace the water pump as well while you have it apart, since it'll be off anyway, unless of course you changed it recently, or it's a really fancy one in great shape.
Good luck!
- Eric
I agree with the others - when you get an odd sound when cranking - either too "lumpy" or too "easy" the chain has probably jumped.
And if you were going to bend the valves, you would have done it already while cranking - no need for the engine to actually start. As the others have said, it's unlikely, but it DID happen to me once, on a 10.25:1 1970 350 with 106,000 miles, so it IS possible.
If it is your timing chain, you will probably be very happy with the results after you replace it. Don't forget to replace the water pump as well while you have it apart, since it'll be off anyway, unless of course you changed it recently, or it's a really fancy one in great shape.
Good luck!
- Eric
So stuff that's on the way.
Cardone Reman Water Pump (Non A/C) 58294
Gasket set you mentioned the other day TCS45270
Cloyes C3006K Timing Set
Apart from the harmonic balancer puller, is there anything else special i should need?
I'm probably going to try the "blip the starter with the breaker bar on the ground" Trick you mentioned. Since i dont have an impact.
Any cautions that you might suggest for me? So i dont crush myself under an oil pan or something..
#85
I just noticed you answered some stuff in another thread. Appreciate the help!
I indeed have a torque wrench so i'll definitely be using that to reasemble.
Good thing i also have some gold engine paint left over too. Should cover the water pump and surrounding areas.
I indeed have a torque wrench so i'll definitely be using that to reasemble.
Good thing i also have some gold engine paint left over too. Should cover the water pump and surrounding areas.
It shouldn't be able to have hit the valves.
Also, the low-compression motors have more clearance because of the deeper piston dish, so I wouldn't worry.
Sure, as long as you've got some room at the front of the car.
The coolant has to be drained and the fan and the fan shroud have to come off (if you like a lot of space to work you could pull the radiator as well, since you're draining it anyway), then you remove belts and pulleys, water pump, and pull balancer, then remove timing cover, cam bolt, gears and chain.
You MAY need a gear puller to get the gear off the crank.
You may find it helpful to loosen a bunch of oil pan bolts to be able to lower the front of the pan a fraction of an inch.
You MUST loosen the fan nuts BEFORE you remove the belts, or you'll go insane trying to somehow get a grip on the fan pulley and turn the nuts.
HA! I'm no pro - just a scrounge!
I'd have a gear puller for the small crankshaft gear, just in case, also a gasket scraper, since the timing cover will be a mess.
You'll need something to loosen (and re-torque) the crank bolt - an air wrench is the best to remove it, but a long breaker bar resting on the ground on the driver's side of the engine will serve the same purpose - give a toot or two on the starter and the bolt will loosen.
I'd recommend a torque wrench for reassembly, as the torque spec is "160 minimum."
Also, some engine paint in the correct colors, as you Might As Well clean and paint all those parts while they're off...
Good luck!
- Eric
Also, the low-compression motors have more clearance because of the deeper piston dish, so I wouldn't worry.
Sure, as long as you've got some room at the front of the car.
The coolant has to be drained and the fan and the fan shroud have to come off (if you like a lot of space to work you could pull the radiator as well, since you're draining it anyway), then you remove belts and pulleys, water pump, and pull balancer, then remove timing cover, cam bolt, gears and chain.
You MAY need a gear puller to get the gear off the crank.
You may find it helpful to loosen a bunch of oil pan bolts to be able to lower the front of the pan a fraction of an inch.
You MUST loosen the fan nuts BEFORE you remove the belts, or you'll go insane trying to somehow get a grip on the fan pulley and turn the nuts.
HA! I'm no pro - just a scrounge!
I'd have a gear puller for the small crankshaft gear, just in case, also a gasket scraper, since the timing cover will be a mess.
You'll need something to loosen (and re-torque) the crank bolt - an air wrench is the best to remove it, but a long breaker bar resting on the ground on the driver's side of the engine will serve the same purpose - give a toot or two on the starter and the bolt will loosen.
I'd recommend a torque wrench for reassembly, as the torque spec is "160 minimum."
Also, some engine paint in the correct colors, as you Might As Well clean and paint all those parts while they're off...
Good luck!
- Eric
Last edited by Tony72Cutlass'S'; May 22nd, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
#86
Of course, be sure the coil's disconnected - you wouldn't want the car to start .
- Eric
#88
I'm kind of quite nervous about doing the timing chain, but Supposedly CLOYES is really good and accurate (line up the marks on the gears and fire 'er up).
The 72 350 Set from cloyes was a really good price at rockauto. Here is what i bought.
A-1 CARDONE58294 (58-294)Water Pump $22.79
CLOYESC3006KTiming Set $16.91
FEL-PROTCS45270Timing Cover Gasket Set $12.49
Discount $ -2.61
ShippingGround$ 8.15
Order Total $ 57.73
#89
I wouldn't worry about the oil pan, but I'd be cautious about the breaker bar and the crank bolt - if possible, wire a remote start button, or have an assistant blip the starter, so you can see what's going on (stay well away) in case something bad happens. You might want to tie the handle of the wrench to a frame member if one is nearby, to avoid it's shifting position and popping off under load. All you want to do is turn it about ⅛ to ¼ of a turn, just to break it loose.
Of course, be sure the coil's disconnected - you wouldn't want the car to start .
- Eric
Of course, be sure the coil's disconnected - you wouldn't want the car to start .
- Eric
Do i need an installer to install the balancer? Or can i use a 2x4 and a BFH?
#90
So. my two bolt steering wheel puller wouldn't work even if it was strong enough.
#91
Some steering wheel pullers are also balancer pullers. Only 2 bolts are used on the balancer so you could give it a try. The balancer puller holes are actually the holes for the pulley and there should be 4 of those.
#92
Thanks for the info, i didnt know it was simply the pulley bolt holes.
I might get a gear puller anyway (For the gears on the inside)
What size would i need? They have different pullers, 3'' 4'' and 6'' at my local store, all for around 10 -15 dollars.
#94
#95
So i FINALLY got that blasted pulley and spacer off. Here is what i currently have to work with...
So far removed. Top place, fan, water pump pulley and spacer. Also added a little hose in the bottom so i can drain my coolant into jugs or whatever i can find.
So far removed. Top place, fan, water pump pulley and spacer. Also added a little hose in the bottom so i can drain my coolant into jugs or whatever i can find.
#96
There is 4 bolts that hold the lower pulley onto the balancer. 1/2 " socket and 3/8 ratchet will do.
You will have to take the p/s pump and brackets off.
all the hoses.
the fuel pump.
you should get a heavy duty puller/installer.
i don't think you will have room to put the balancer back on with the wood and hammer.
You will need to take the 4 lower bolts, (9/16 socket) off the cover.
with the pump off and the lower bolts, you will have to pry the front cover off.
I take the oil pan bolts lose as far back as I can. I think the first 4 on each side.
A 9/16 socket will take the cam bolt off.
I would bring the #1 piston up to TDC.
Now you need to figure out how to turn the cam to make the alignment with the crank gear.
When you put the front cover back on with the oil pan still in place. I trim the rubber ends off the seal for the oil pan. Now with some sealer in each corner and frt cover gasket in place, I use the lower bolts for the cover and squeeze the front cover back on. Now you can tighten the oil pan bolts also. I think the front crank balencer seal is in the kit , might replace that also. Make sure you pick the correct gasket for the water pump. They usually come with a couple of gaskets.
Now you can put it all back together.
Like I said, there may not be room to swing the hammer on the wood to put the balencer back on.
You will need to put something in the flywheel to keep the engine from turning when you go to torque the balencer bolt.
Good luck
Gene
You will have to take the p/s pump and brackets off.
all the hoses.
the fuel pump.
you should get a heavy duty puller/installer.
i don't think you will have room to put the balancer back on with the wood and hammer.
You will need to take the 4 lower bolts, (9/16 socket) off the cover.
with the pump off and the lower bolts, you will have to pry the front cover off.
I take the oil pan bolts lose as far back as I can. I think the first 4 on each side.
A 9/16 socket will take the cam bolt off.
I would bring the #1 piston up to TDC.
Now you need to figure out how to turn the cam to make the alignment with the crank gear.
When you put the front cover back on with the oil pan still in place. I trim the rubber ends off the seal for the oil pan. Now with some sealer in each corner and frt cover gasket in place, I use the lower bolts for the cover and squeeze the front cover back on. Now you can tighten the oil pan bolts also. I think the front crank balencer seal is in the kit , might replace that also. Make sure you pick the correct gasket for the water pump. They usually come with a couple of gaskets.
Now you can put it all back together.
Like I said, there may not be room to swing the hammer on the wood to put the balencer back on.
You will need to put something in the flywheel to keep the engine from turning when you go to torque the balencer bolt.
Good luck
Gene
#97
Now would be a good time to do that.
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
Or use the rope-in-the-cylinder trick.
- Eric
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
- Eric
#98
There is 4 bolts that hold the lower pulley onto the balancer. 1/2 " socket and 3/8 ratchet will do.
You will have to take the p/s pump and brackets off.
all the hoses.
the fuel pump.
you should get a heavy duty puller/installer.
i don't think you will have room to put the balancer back on with the wood and hammer.
You will need to take the 4 lower bolts, (9/16 socket) off the cover.
with the pump off and the lower bolts, you will have to pry the front cover off.
I take the oil pan bolts lose as far back as I can. I think the first 4 on each side.
A 9/16 socket will take the cam bolt off.
I would bring the #1 piston up to TDC.
Now you need to figure out how to turn the cam to make the alignment with the crank gear.
When you put the front cover back on with the oil pan still in place. I trim the rubber ends off the seal for the oil pan. Now with some sealer in each corner and frt cover gasket in place, I use the lower bolts for the cover and squeeze the front cover back on. Now you can tighten the oil pan bolts also. I think the front crank balencer seal is in the kit , might replace that also. Make sure you pick the correct gasket for the water pump. They usually come with a couple of gaskets.
Now you can put it all back together.
Like I said, there may not be room to swing the hammer on the wood to put the balencer back on.
You will need to put something in the flywheel to keep the engine from turning when you go to torque the balencer bolt.
Good luck
Gene
You will have to take the p/s pump and brackets off.
all the hoses.
the fuel pump.
you should get a heavy duty puller/installer.
i don't think you will have room to put the balancer back on with the wood and hammer.
You will need to take the 4 lower bolts, (9/16 socket) off the cover.
with the pump off and the lower bolts, you will have to pry the front cover off.
I take the oil pan bolts lose as far back as I can. I think the first 4 on each side.
A 9/16 socket will take the cam bolt off.
I would bring the #1 piston up to TDC.
Now you need to figure out how to turn the cam to make the alignment with the crank gear.
When you put the front cover back on with the oil pan still in place. I trim the rubber ends off the seal for the oil pan. Now with some sealer in each corner and frt cover gasket in place, I use the lower bolts for the cover and squeeze the front cover back on. Now you can tighten the oil pan bolts also. I think the front crank balencer seal is in the kit , might replace that also. Make sure you pick the correct gasket for the water pump. They usually come with a couple of gaskets.
Now you can put it all back together.
Like I said, there may not be room to swing the hammer on the wood to put the balencer back on.
You will need to put something in the flywheel to keep the engine from turning when you go to torque the balencer bolt.
Good luck
Gene
Right now i'm working on draining my coolant system, do i need to jack up the rear tires to make sure i get all of it out??
#99
Now would be a good time to do that.
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
Or use the rope-in-the-cylinder trick.
- Eric
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
Or use the rope-in-the-cylinder trick.
- Eric
But eric, lets say i have the bolt on, and i line up the timing mark to #1 TDC, don't i have to blip the starter to get the bolt off? Then i'll just loose the spot again...
#100
Now would be a good time to do that.
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
Or use the rope-in-the-cylinder trick.
- Eric
It's tough with no bolt on the end of the crank, no timing mark on the timing cover, and no balancer mark to line up with.
You should also confirm your timing mark now, just in case it moved at some point in the past.
Or use the rope-in-the-cylinder trick.
- Eric
Im having a heck of a time trying to get that thing loose, i'm worried that if i use the "blip the starter" trick, that i'll loose my timing mark and not know where TDC is...
#101
Yeah, I guess you would lose that alignment if you use the starter technique to loosen the bolt.
That would leave you to reinstall the bolt without the balancer and confirm TDC with a suitable instrument later (bolt in spark plug base, dial indicator with long reach, screwdriver or pencil if you've got a good eye and aren't going to try to get it perfect...).
You can definitely use the rope in the cylinder trick to losen the damper bolt - it should work fine, but you'll need to give a really hard pull on a long wrench, because the rope is soft and you'll lose all "shock" value that would normally help "jar" the bolt loose.
- Eric
That would leave you to reinstall the bolt without the balancer and confirm TDC with a suitable instrument later (bolt in spark plug base, dial indicator with long reach, screwdriver or pencil if you've got a good eye and aren't going to try to get it perfect...).
You can definitely use the rope in the cylinder trick to losen the damper bolt - it should work fine, but you'll need to give a really hard pull on a long wrench, because the rope is soft and you'll lose all "shock" value that would normally help "jar" the bolt loose.
- Eric
#102
Yeah, I guess you would lose that alignment if you use the starter technique to loosen the bolt.
That would leave you to reinstall the bolt without the balancer and confirm TDC with a suitable instrument later (bolt in spark plug base, dial indicator with long reach, screwdriver or pencil if you've got a good eye and aren't going to try to get it perfect...).
You can definitely use the rope in the cylinder trick to losen the damper bolt - it should work fine, but you'll need to give a really hard pull on a long wrench, because the rope is soft and you'll lose all "shock" value that would normally help "jar" the bolt loose.
- Eric
That would leave you to reinstall the bolt without the balancer and confirm TDC with a suitable instrument later (bolt in spark plug base, dial indicator with long reach, screwdriver or pencil if you've got a good eye and aren't going to try to get it perfect...).
You can definitely use the rope in the cylinder trick to losen the damper bolt - it should work fine, but you'll need to give a really hard pull on a long wrench, because the rope is soft and you'll lose all "shock" value that would normally help "jar" the bolt loose.
- Eric
Thanks Eric, that rope in the cylinder trick really sounds great, my 1/2'' wrench doesn't hit the floor so i can't really use the starter to loosen it.
Now, to the shed to try to find some nylon rope! Actually i think i have a Buoy somewhere with quite a bit of rope of it.. hmmmmmm
#104
#105
#106
#107
Had to give the starter 4 good kicks before the bolt would loosen, AND the car jumped about 6 inches each time i hit the starter! Hows that for torque?
Here is the result.
#110
Here is some progress on the detailing front though, Detailed my rebuilt water pump from cardone.
#111
I think it's an original hose too.... It has the original GM clamps on the radiator side...
#112
Just go down to the auto parts store and get one. They probably won't have it in stock, and will be able to order it for first thing the next day.
If the new one doesn't come with the spring inside, pull the spring out of the old one and put it in the new one (twist clockwise as you pull or push).
- Eric
#113
Yes, it's a specific hose.
Just go down to the auto parts store and get one. They probably won't have it in stock, and will be able to order it for first thing the next day.
If the new one doesn't come with the spring inside, pull the spring out of the old one and put it in the new one (twist clockwise as you pull or push).
- Eric
Just go down to the auto parts store and get one. They probably won't have it in stock, and will be able to order it for first thing the next day.
If the new one doesn't come with the spring inside, pull the spring out of the old one and put it in the new one (twist clockwise as you pull or push).
- Eric
#116
#117
MAN is that timing gear stubborn.... Any ideas?? it moves about 1/2 inch along the shaft and then gets stuck....
at which point when i crank it further, it just starts turning the crank..
at which point when i crank it further, it just starts turning the crank..
#118
If you're talking about the crank gear, get a cold chisel and break it at the keyway!
Couple - three wacks with a BFH will do it, on the front edge, then you can pull it off with your fingers!
Little tip - knock down the cooked oil, etc. with some emery cloth or sandpaper, so the new one slides right on!!
And don't drop the key!
Couple - three wacks with a BFH will do it, on the front edge, then you can pull it off with your fingers!
Little tip - knock down the cooked oil, etc. with some emery cloth or sandpaper, so the new one slides right on!!
And don't drop the key!
#119
If you're talking about the crank gear, get a cold chisel and break it at the keyway!
Couple - three wacks with a BFH will do it, on the front edge, then you can pull it off with your fingers!
Little tip - knock down the cooked oil, etc. with some emery cloth or sandpaper, so the new one slides right on!!
And don't drop the key!
Couple - three wacks with a BFH will do it, on the front edge, then you can pull it off with your fingers!
Little tip - knock down the cooked oil, etc. with some emery cloth or sandpaper, so the new one slides right on!!
And don't drop the key!
So it moves back and forth about 1/2 inch... except i can't pull it off further, maybe I'm missing something...