nuttkaze

I'm new to this board, so I would like to start off and tell everyone hi!!!! I have been reading threads for about three days, but this is my first post. Now its time to get straight to the point. I have a 71' Cutlass Vert that I'm about to redo. I'm going back with original color and interior. I already have all my stuff for my interior and I have 90% of the stuff for my suspension. I have front and rear disk brakes, front end suspension kit, polyurehtane bushing kit, rubber body bushing kit, idler arm, pittman arm, center link, front gsa shock and springs, rear springs "I wasn't sure if I should go with air or gas for the rear shocks?". The biggest question is what to do with the motor. I dont want anything to radical, but just something when I get on it at the light I leave 11's on the pavement..o yeah I dont have posi traction, but it will be installed, but I'm not sure what gears to go with. I may drive it once or twice a month, but when I drive its on the rd at least 50-100mi round trip!!!

Lets talk motor: As I stated I want to beef my engine up a bit. I have a original 4-barrel 350.I want to achieve at least 350hp plus!!! What to do with the trans and what size gears? I'm going to convert to posi..

I already know cam, but it will depend on my compression. Intake, Carb, Ceremic Headers "What kind and size do you all suggest", What kind of pistons? What about heads? I will get a valve job. I'm going MSD Ignition and taking out the points. Dual exhaust w/electric cut outs.

Let me know what you all think and please give all suggestions!!! Dont leave anything out. If you could give stores, model numbers, etc. I have a Dick Miller book in the mail coming to me as well.

nuttkaze

Here is some of my ideas, but i'm fairly new to this so I need the help of all!!!

Intake-Going to fork over the money to get the ram air intake. Is it worth it?
Carb-Need suggestions
Cam-Depends on compression
True Roller Timing chain-Suggestinos please? What about a double roller
Heads-Im undecided on what to do with the heads. Give suggestions?
Pistons-Dick Miller forged pistons 9.75 to 1 compression
Headers-Has to be ceramic coated long tube, but I'm unsure on which ones to go with?
Gears-What gears do you all suggest? Mix between highway and performance
Torque Converter-Do I need one? What stall would you all recommend?
Transmission-Do you all suggest a shift kit?
Ignition-All MSD

All suggestions will be really appreciated!!!!!! Please give them to me!!!

Olds64

Here is some info. Take it for what it is worth. I'm sure you will find alot of different opinions on our site.

Do you mean the cold air induction hood available on the Cutlass? If so, only get it if you have the money and like the styling. As far as intake manifolds go nothing beats an Edelbrock Performer RPM.

Rebuild your Q-jet.

I know there are cheaper aftermarket pistons available. I got the TRW 2323F pistons for my BBO. I'm sure they make SBO pistons as well.

I installed Hedman Hedders on my 71 98 recently. They are great. I've heard it is harder to fit headers in a Cutlass. I was actually surprised at the ease of install in my 98.

3.23 or 3.42 posi

Blk71SX

another 100 cubic inches wouldn't hurt

Toyaholic

The Hooker Super-Comp headers worked good for the 455. Had a tough time getting them in, but they do fit. The super-comp's have a good match to the exhaust port.

I've heard alot of good things about the RPM intake.

Check out the Edlebrock heads. I think they are 77cc's instead of the factory 80cc. Remember, this will change your comp. ratio. Try this compression calculator ----> http://www.bgsoflex.com/cr.html

Multi-spark ignition works well for me. Helps performance and fuel milage. You will need an adapter for your tach to work correctly.

If you decide to go with a stall converter it should be matched to your cam.

Hope this helps.

captjim

Couple of issues with the E-brock heads on a 350. One, even with flat tops and .040 piston to head, Cr will be 9.4. Two, you can't run a mechanical fuel pump.

Toyaholic

Do the 455 Edelbrock heads require an electric fuel pump? I have been thinking of replacing my "B" heads.

cutlassefi

350 hp is easy on a 350. Good cam, headers, RPM manifold and 9.5 compression with some cleaned up heads and you're there.

And don't buy pistons from Dick Miller or Mondello, nothing against them but they're just selling you the same piston you can buy cheaper somewhere else.

nuttkaze

I already have the hood install, but I have the original intake. I was aking if getting the ram air cleaner was worth it?

nuttkaze

What pistons do you suggest?

442_Mustang

JE makes a great piston. A lot lighter than the TRW slugs my engine guy says and we weighed some to prove it. A bit pricey but supposed to be the cat's meow.
The Edelbrock heads will work on a 350 but with the lower deck height, the mechanical fuel pump hits the head. Also, I believe u need to run the correct Edelbrock Intake with those heads on a 350

71 Cutlass

[quote=nuttkaze;176748]
As I stated I want to beef my engine up a bit. I have a original 4-barrel 350.I want to achieve at least 350hp plus!!! . quote]


Already had this discussion and 350 HP is not reachable without making your car virtually unstreetable. Use a 455 and it's reasonable, so forget those high hopes on today's gas. Search the subject on this website and you will see that only one post was given for that kind of horsepower...that motor was for the track (check cam specs etc.) Not to mention, your posts says, "I don't want to do anything too radical" to the motor. Because your 1971 350 motor only had 180 NET horsepower, nothing short of radical will ever get it to 380 horsepower ("350 plus"). And when you said "11s"..certainly your not suggesting 1/4 mile times? It seems like you are expecting something that a small block street motor can never give you. Remember, when others on this board were asked to post a combination for what you are looking for in a streetable car NO ONE posted anything...there's a reason for that. Set new/realistic goals, then search for the necessary parts. Not trying to be a kill-joy, but man are you about to be severely dissapointed, given your expectations and current plan of attack.

Guy Faucher

I beg to differ with the streetable note. 350HP on a 350 is no problem. As a mater of fact 400HP is not much of a stretch and very streetable. As for 1/4 mile times expect in the 13's. The 455 is a great choice but I like small blocks too. I have A set of eldelbrock heads I am putting on a 403. My neighbor is an Olds expert and he tells me that ported 7a heads which are plentiful will flow as much as non ported Eldelbrocks and your CR with 7a's and flat top pistons with no dish will be 10.25/1. Keep in mind you'll have to run premium if you use 7a's. The EldelB heads CR run about 9:50/1 with no detonation due to aluminums heat rejection and you can mill to 10:00/1. The 7a's can accept the 2.00 valve sizes too. My combination is that I am working on is a 409ci (403 +.30) with EldelB, flat top pistons, cam in the .5?? something lift and some duration with a QJet (850cfm) a 4 sp M21 and a 3.90 posi. My calculated HP is 460HP and 450LBFT. The idle is lopey. For components go into the Olds club of America. Mondello and Miller are super expensive. Mondello has great cam choices for $150.

Guy Faucher

To run the Edleb heads on SB you must use EldelB preformer RPM intake port matched to the head intake ports. Relatively easy. You must use electric fuel pmp as the mechanical fuel pump runs into the heads. Do not mill the head to fit the mechanical fuel pump or you will hit the water jacket. Also. If you stick with 350 that you have your 71 block had a good crank which is nodular. That's what you want unless you can find a 330Ci Olds which had forged. Also, use Olds 403 connecting rods as they have 30% increase in rod thickness and have exact same dimentions as 350 rods and they are forged which the 350's are not. You will need to get the rotating assembly rebalanced though. Also i don;t recommend a rear end gearing of 3.91. High way driving is stressful. 3.42 seems to be a good overall choice. Ram air is nice but the assemblies will set you back about $450 (Aircleaner, lid, seal, etc..). The hood will set you back about $600. But it is great. I wish you the best of luck. Let me know if I can help.

nuttkaze

[quote=71 Cutlass;177085]When I said 11's, i met 11's on the pavement from the tires "Posi-traction" not 1/4 mile. thats im possible to run 11's with 350hp in vechicle that weighs that much. All I'm asking basically just to give me some solid combo's...not hard feelings 71' Cutlass!! the set up you have is more to what I wanted to do, thats why I inbox you earlier in the week. Be looking out for a inbox from me soon!!!

nuttkaze

My car is all original with the aftermarket fiberglass hood installed about 6yrs ago. I could get my hands on 455, but I want to keep everything original in the car, but i wan to add just a little bit of zip in the motor!!

cutlassefi

71 Cutlass- you're may be on a coffee break, not sure where you're coming from there.

Again, a good cam (220 duration @ .050), cleaned up #7 heads with either 2.00 or 2.07 intake valves (both will fit), well tuned carb and 9.5:1 compression and you're there, I gaurantee it.

My combo is #7 heads, 222/230 Hyd Roller, .544 lift, RPM intake, headers, EFI'd. Based on my fuel flow thru the motor my hp is right about 375 and it's quite peppy.

Probe makes a good piston for the 350, light, strong and not overly expensive.

captjim

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28012

Here is my mild 9 to 1 355 that would fry the tires and has great manners. It pushed my heavy Cutlass wagon into the high 13s with a 3.42 gear. That engine is currently on a stand and is for sale.

Too many guys get hung up on numbers, if you just want a fun, torquey, responsive engine, keep it simple.

350 HP unreasonable? Seriously? My "new" 355 has larger intake valves, a fair amount of bowl work, 227/233 Voodoo, RPM, 750 carb and I'm sure it makes an honest 375 HP, idles smoothly with plenty of vacuum, and has terrific off-idle response.

IMO, no need for a 330 crank or 403 rods at that power level., the 350 parts will be fine.

nuttkaze

So far I think I have a idea in the direction I would want to go in doing my 1971 350 engine. I have really appreciated everyone opinions and i hope to continue geting them in which I am learning from each of you!!!! Here it goes and tell me what you all think and give opinion please...

What about the RAM Air Cleaner for my Ram Air Hood? What can of performasnce gains should I expect?
Intake- EDEL RPM Performer
Carb-Rebuild the factory Quad which is a 4-Barrel
Cam-Depends on compression.."give opinions"
True Roller Timing chain-Suggestinos please on what kind? What about a double roller?
Heads-I think I'm going with the suggestion of CuttlasFI and clean up the original #7 w/ 2.00 or 2.07 intake valves (Waht the difference of the intake valves?), but still give suggestions!!!
Pistons-What kind..looking to get about 9.75 to 1..no higher!!!
Headers-ceramic coated long tube, but I'm unsure on which ones to go with?
Gears-3.23 or 3.42..which ones?
Torque Converter-Do I need one? What stall would you all recommend?
Transmission-Do you all suggest a shift kit?
HEI Ignition-All MSD

Give my your opinions if this will be a fun weekend driver with a little bit of zip!!!

71 Cutlass

[quote=cutlassefi;177124]
Again, a good cam (220 duration @ .050), cleaned up #7 heads with either 2.00 or 2.07 intake valves (both will fit), well tuned carb and 9.5:1 compression and you're there, I gaurantee it.
quote]


Notice how every post claiming that a streetable 350 Olds can have 400 HP and saying that it's "easy" etc. always says "I guarantee it" but NEVER says "I've done it." NO ONE was able to post dyno numbers or anything last time this thread came up to prove this, nor has anyone done it this time. Sorry, but this is real life and guesses and theory will not give Nuttkaze what he's looking for...unless false hope is what some think he actually wants. Post the actual build up with dyno numbers to show Nuttkaze what you're telling him is a done deal, as opposed to the typical "let me get on a website with no proof of anything and just tell everyone this is so easy" stuff.. Waiting for something real.

cutlassefi

Most people don't want to pay for the dyno session. But I'll tell you what, the next one I build, you pay for the dyno session. If it doesn't make what I claim it will I'll pay you back, gauranteed.

If a car of a certain weight, gear etc posts a particular time you an calculate it pretty close. Also on my EFI'd 350 I can calculate within about 5% or so what the real hp is using my VE table and pounds of fuel used. Not rocket science, no pun intended.

nuttkaze

I recently sold the Lime green all original w 96,000 miles. 350 4/barrel, single exhaust. I'm redoing the Vert which i like to call No
"Ceilings". It has 150k miles, but its strong!!! 350 4-barrel dual exhaust. 350 trans all original, except being painted over 12 yers ago.

80_cutlass

Here is a link to build that should be easy and cheap to reproduce and get you darn close to a 350 hp engine. According to his 1/4 mile times and weights he is in the 340s with a really easy build, with a bit more squeeze than you wanted, however.

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=350


Also seems pretty streetable.

80_cutlass

Here's build that according to weights and times should put one into the 360 range, but doesn't seem as streetable. I imagine for a couple of compression points and 10-12hp it could be:

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=350

80_cutlass

Here's one right around 320hp that seems real streetable:

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=350

80_cutlass

Here's one with dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times showing a 400hp at the crank engine. 340 on the chassis dyno.
http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=350

seems like something that would be livable on the street.

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I was linking as I was reading and going back and forth. It appears it is doable after all.

71 Cutlass

"Calculate"...I rest my case. Asked for real, got theory and guessing again...

80 Cutlass...good research, though the only streetable car that I saw from what you listed was the one using the Lunati 318A2 cam, which was about 315 HP or so. But again, good research on your part...it was solid info with no guessing games put forth as fact.

70 cutlass s

Nuttaze welcome to the site. I read this entire tread and one thing I can tell you is to weight the info in front of you with your own time turning wrenchs. As a person who has built many different 350 at different power levels and all GM makes. Yes you can build a streetable 350 over 300hp.

You have several telling you can and only one saying no.

Captjim and Cutlassefi (Mark) are both proven engine builders. I wouldn't have any problem with letting either one build me a engine. If they told me it would produce a certain number I would believe them.

This also goes for warhead, BIGJERR and 380Racer all of this guys know what they are talking about. Just look around and join some other Olds forums and you will see some of the same names giving great advice. I know by just reading what they have posted has made me a better engine builder.

I agree getting hung up on numbers is not what you want to do, but we all want to put a number to what our engines produce. Its a guy thing.

I know there are other good engines builders I didn't forget the others I just used the above as examples. As they post on here and other sites and always give good advice.

71 Cutlass

I believe I said 380-400 HP was not "Easy" and streetable in a 350. Never said just getting over 300HP wasn't possible. Last post says that 315 HP is no problem. Still waiting for "real."

Oldsguy

Start another thread to "discuss" the subject of streetable 350 horsepower and we can link it to this one. I realize nuttkaze asked about it but I really think the real subject in this discussion should be how much torque our Oldsmobile engines produce and that the fun factor is going to be way up there for a car that is only driven on the weekends and not raced. As I see it, the subject of actual numbers can be avoided unless they are only for bragging rights. I really didn't read that into his original post anyway.
By the way, welcome to CO to both nuttkaze and Guy Faucher. Glad to have both of you here.

captjim

This is what you stated, and I completely disagree. 1 HP per CI is easy. HP is just a function of torque and RPM, so build and engine with a fair amount of torque and some head work to let it breathe and you are there.

Edelbrock made 397 HP with a 9.8 to 1 350,
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...f_rpm-sb.shtml
hit the "power graph" button
As for "dynos" those numbers can be easily manipulated.

Forum guys know my opinion on HP numbers. Sorta tonque-in-cheek I started this thread over at OP
http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthre...ower+overrated

Basically, torque moves your car, so on a driver that will hardly ever see 5,000 rpm, why build a high HP engine?

captjim

1) I have a RamAirBox, it was worth .15 on my 14.0 car
2) Agree with the RPM intake
3) Agree with the rebuilt Q-jet
4) Cam, depends, Engle 18-20, Voodoo 60803, or let Mark grind you one
5) Cloyes chain, always been dead-nuts for me
6) heads, agree with Mark, IMO 2.00" is plenty along with a nice bowl blend
7) pistons, depends on cylinder head volume and deck height. Measure everything and if you need flat tops get Speed Pros and if you need a small 5-6cc dish go Speed Pro or Probe
8) headers, depends on your budget, you get what you pay for
9) 3.23s with a short tire (26") and 3.42s with a taller (28") tire
10) NOT the place to skimp, get a decent one, Hughes, Coan, etc. I spent $650 on mine and iot is worth every penny. Zero slip under part throttle, stalls nice under WOT.
11) TH-350 can be rebuilt VERY strong quite inexpensively. At a minimum, shift kit and external cooler
12) Stock HEI with a curve kit (Pertronix Flamethrower is like $225 new) is all you need, don't bother with the cost or hassles of the MSD, IMO.

71 Cutlass

Captjim,
Boy does that Edelbrock graph bring back memories. About 6-7 years ago, I decided along with 2 other friends who own Cutlasses to do that build up. If I remember correctly it was called "The Total Power Package" or something like that. The only difference in our cars was that mine was a 1971 350 cid, and the other two guys both had 350s from 1972. After we added the EXACT parts listed on the Edelbrock website (except for headers) we thought that our cars didn't really seem that "fast" when driving them. We decided to have our cars dynoed together, so all 3 of us went together and they put our cars on the dyno one after the other. The HP differed slightly for each of our cars, but not by much. The average HP of our three cars combined was 220 HP AT THE REAR WHEELS. Obviously no where near the 400 HP (397)Edelbrock said the build up would make. I posted this many years back (cannot remember on what site) and said the Total Power Package was bogus. After posting, others wrote that they too had done the same build from Edelbrock and were no where near the 400 HP mark either. The final verdict was that the entire Edelbrock build was either false advertising or Edelbrock had done much more to the motor and had made it into a motor for racing only instead of one for the street. Anyway, just a story of my experience with that build up.

cutlassefi

71cutlass- so from that you can determine that every combination listed won't produce as presented?

80_cutlass

I thought a couple of those combos were streetable, and a couple of them were not as streetable, but for a weekend only driver (once or twice a month the OP said) I could be real pleased with some of the less streetable builds with minor changes. Things that would lower power a bit, but not 30-40 hp. I think the OP should look at things like what I posted and make some minor changes to suit him....then get with cutlassefi or others and polish it off.

I tend to agree about not getting hung up on a number, however. I'd still look at some the builds on here OP and ROP and decided what combination of parts/drivabilty I could live with.

You do NOT need a 455 (or even 350hp) to have a snappy car out of your cutlass. Choose your gearing and torque converter wisely as they will have the largest impact on how the car acts/feels when you punch the loud pedal. Best of both worlds would be to stick a 200-4r in it and 3.73 - 4.10 gears. edit: now I see that's not on the table, so 3.42s are the best choice and still don't skimp on TC

A 300+ hp car with the right gears/TC is a kick to drive and can be realible as hell.

sb

captjim

Read the fine print, my friend. Along with the parts list were a set of HEAVILY MODIFIED heads. You are NEVER, EVER going to make serious power with stock heads and stock manifolds, especially Olds manifolds, which are hideous. Again, to make HP you need rpm, to get an engine to breathe you need good flowing induction, cylinder heads, and exhaust.

Also, both 71 and 72 350 Oldsmobile engines had 23.8CC dishes, making the compression ratio considerably lower than the 9.8 that Edelbrock used. More like 8.5 to 1. I am not positive but am pretty sure that they used Speed Pro pistons, either flat tops or the 6cc dish, either way significantly more compression.

So, you took a stock, crappy head on an engine with stock crappy manifolds and a compression ratio completely unsuited to that particular camshaft and made less than the desired horsepower? Imagine that. Add into that the small gear that those cars came with and no wonder you were not impressed. Common mistake, too much cam, not enough Cr, no gear or converter.

71 Cutlass

cutlassefi,
Since I never posted that, the absurd conclusion you have reached is your own. Hmm, another incorrect theory.

Captjim, Fine print?? Unfortunately, there was no fine print back then (7 years ago), not to mention the fact that the tech person I spoke with "guaranteed" it. As I said, the whole thing never made sense to me but we decided to try it since it was inexpensive and only required a weekend parts swap for a payoff of 400 HP. Like I posted before, when the results were not there, it became clear that Edelbrock had not shared EVERYTHING included in the build up. Just for the record, our cars did not have the 2.56 gears and stock converters as your post assumed. We had all changed to dual exhaust had 3.42 gears (except one car ran 3.23s) and had 2200 stall converters. The cylinder heads were untouched as were the pistons resulting in, as you pointed out, low compression,poor flow,etc. But as I said,Edelbrock said no need to touch the heads or pistons, just put the parts in and you're good to go

cutlassefi

As usual Jim you're right on. I called Edelbrock years ago too. Right when I did the first build on my 72. The guy told me the same as you, 9.5:1 or better and he also said they did a bit of bowl work to a set of #5 heads, that make sense.

When I was 17 I worked at a speed shop in Ft Laud., and I sold an Erson Hi Flow 1 cam to my high school buddy. It was going in his moms 72 Yellow Cutlass Supreme Conv. with a 2.73 gear.
Guess what, it was a pig. Gee can't imagine why, 2.73 gear, just a little over 8.0:1 compression and those really great Olds stock exhaust manifolds. He was pissed at me, not sure we spoke much after that. I learned a valuable lesson.

71cutlass - chill, granted sometimes you need to take things with a grain of salt but at some point it may allow you to live longer if you believe at least some of what is presented to you.

71 Cutlass

You mean like believing what Edelbrock presented to me...no head work necessary, no higher compression? No, I think I'll live longer when something real and verifiable is presented to me. I've read everyone's opinions, but no one's self built example sitting in their garage. We obviously disagree on how to achieve goals successfully, which is fine, such is life, it's not a big deal. For me, I choose to see the example of what someone is claiming before I buy. This way, I'm guaranteed success, because the item becomes a proven commodity . Doing it any other way would be, for me, irresponsible, because I'm simply jumping off a cliff at the say so from someone else, not ever knowing anything for sure.

My442

My 455, with an Engle 20-22 cam, TRW pistons (9.7 to 1 CR), street ported heads, Comp roller tip rockers, balanced, O4B intake, reworked Q-jet, and W and Z exhaust manifolds pulled a little over 400 HP on the engine dyno. That is with a perfect A/F ratio and ignition curve.

It has 16" of vacuum, a decent idle, and silly low to mid range torque.

I doubt that a 350 could be streetable at 400 HP.

Just my .02