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Ok, found very little info regarding the Dick Miller Racing serpentine kit, and felt it was time for someone to do a somewhat decent review.
Reason I have a desire to convert to serpentine is that due to load from electrical accessories, it's tough to keep the original v-belt setup from slipping, and keep the battery charged. I have twin electric fans, electric fuel pump, H4 headlights, a decent stereo, as well as a few other items.
The part number I ordered was the non-underdrive 5 pulley setup with a keyway power steering pulley, part # DMR-5065-5-S .
Engine/pulley setup this is going on is a '72 350, with A/C, and has all the original brackets & pulleys, etc, and there are no issues with alignment, belt tossing, etc.
Attached is the pic from the DMR website of the pulley setup. One thing that always bothered me was it was a mock-up pic, not complete, and I couldn't find any pics of a completed install, or any decent reviews.
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Last edited by HWYSTR455; January 3rd, 2016 at 07:16 AM.
So originally ordered the kit in like November, but there was a 6 week delay due to items backlogged at the powder coater. Total was $645 shipped. Items were properly packaged so there would be no damage, and looked as expected when received.
One thing I noticed when I received the parts is there were no instructions, pictures, or anything. I called and asked Mr. Miller if they were accidentally not included and he stated that there were no instructions, that it was self-explanatory.
I explained my intended application for the install and he confirmed it would work. I asked before originally ordering and was told the same. I also asked what the belt length should be and was told to 'just measure to be sure'.
So began by removing all the originally pulleys, removed the alt, and removed the power steering pump.
As I went to install the pulley on the alt, I realized that the thickness of the powder coating wasn't included in the calculations of the fitment on the shaft, and had to sand the coating off the inside diameter of the pulley hole for it to properly fit.
Not too much of a biggie, kind of understandable, and I continued to the rest of the pulleys sanding and removing the coating for fit.
Went on to install the remaining pulleys, and perform an initial mock-up. Re-installed the PS pump, and went to mock up the idler pulley bracket.
FAIL
Because of the contour of the bracket, and the recessed mount hole, no way was the idler pulley bracket going to mount properly. Called DMR Monday morning, and I guess being the holidays, the shop was closed, and left a voice message.
Didn't want the car to be down for weeks, so figured I'd modify the idler bracket and continue. I used a half-round file and notched the bracket, making it follow the contour of the power steering bracket.
With the notch cut, and the bracket held up to the mount area, it was clear the bracket was also uneven, and had to knock down the one bolt area so it would fit flush.
Even after those mods, the idler was off from the balancer/water pump pulleys, and was @ 1/3" forward, which would have made the belt run a 1/3" off the rear of the idler pulley. Additional modifications were need to align the idler with the balancer & WP pulley. (pics)
Here's some pics of the bracket modified, and the final. In the background you can see the calculations done during the process and mock-up. (more on that later)
With the idler mounted and modified so it would be properly aligned, I moved on to checking the power steering pulley alignment.
FAIL
The power steering pulley is rearward, towards the block, by @ 1/3". Since the load area is required to allow the pulley to run true, and the fact that in order to space it out enough, there would be no remaining threads left to mount the retaining nut, there is no way to space out the PS pulley. (on the shaft)
Looking closely at the pulleys, I noticed that the water pump pulley had 7 grooves, while the remaining pulleys had the required 6 grooves. Thinking maybe there could be an optical illusion going on here, I measure for the belt, and decided to mock it up anyway.
Belt length worked out to be between 57.5" and 58.5", no 'zero' belts are available. I purchased a 57.5" belt, Dayco 5060575, and installed for the mock-up.
Note: The 58.5" would be better, since the 57.4" belt required the removal of the adjuster bolt on the alt to slip the belt over the pulley.
So to make up for the 'visual' offset, when I installed the belt, I left the one extra groove on the water pump pulley to the front open.
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Last edited by HWYSTR455; January 3rd, 2016 at 08:06 AM.
Conclusion: Obviously, this pulley setup will NOT work with 'any' Oldsmobile 1965-1990, as advertised. Excerpt from the DMR website:
"Will fit 1965-1990 Oldsmobile V-8 engines and will work with either long or short water pumps. 2 sets #DMR-8230-1 spacer kit will adapt short water pump to fit in place of longer A/C pump. Great for show application and will help eliminate throwing belts under high RPM applications. Comes with a black hard coat finish to prevent the belt from wearing the pulleys as can happen with normal aluminum pulley sets."
The Alt & PS pulleys do line up, so not sure if changing to a different PS/Alt bracket setup will make it line up or not. I've heard that some say the distance from the front of the block is the same on all bracket setups, but not sure if that's true or not, and if it is, it certainly won't make a difference.
If any have additional info on that please share, I would still like to use the pulleys, even if I need to grab a diff series of brackets.
And no, you can't really space the existing PS/Alt brackets out, because there are a number of mount points, making it difficult to align, AND, it would space the idler out as well. There's no room left on the idler bracket to move it further in.
One thing I did notice that the pic on the website shows a press fit PS pulley, and the press fit pulley looks shorter. Also, the one or two examples of people using this setup are using the press fit pulley. (one example mentioned the pulleys still needed to be spaced out though)
Nice, if unfortunate and expensive writeup. I hate to say this, but if the problem you are trying to fix is solely belt slippage on a high-output alternator, you might be much better off adapting a Chevy gilmer drive setup as opposed to one of these half-@$$ed serpentine setups.
Unfortunately, there wouldn't be enough room for a Gilmer, with the electric fans, it's pretty tight up there. Can't put it on the balancer either, the PS stuff would get in the way.
Still think a wider belt setup, like a 6 rib would be the way to go.
I will give Mr. Miller a call again, see what he has to say. Was really hoping he can offer a solution, could be something as easy as I was sent the wrong PS pulley (fingers crossed). Would like to allow him a chance to make things right, owe him the opportunity.
Joe, do you know if there are different PS/ALT spacing for different series brackets? Thinking this may be as simple as going to a different bracket setup?
My understanding is the WP & balancer pulleys are spaced out the same from the block, except for the one-year water pump.
My understanding is the WP & balancer pulleys are spaced out the same from the block, except for the one-year water pump.
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That's unfortunately correct. The 1968-1990 PS pump brackets all put the pump in exactly the same place. The 64-67 cars had the pump mounted high on the driver's side. Short of custom-machined brackets, you're stuck.
As for the spacing, is it the same for BBO as well as SBO? Both are the same distance?
Every single Olds V8 built from 1968-1990 puts the PS pump in exactly the same place. By the way, the factory parts books and the assembly manuals have diagrams of the various belt configurations and show measurements of which belt track is how far from the front of the block.
Thank you Joe! Yeah, have a service manual, not sure if I have an assembly manual or not, will have to look. Pretty sure I have a parts manual too.
Well, that's pretty much nails it then, obvious it's an issue with the pulley, no two ways about it. Shame no one has done a review before, would have save me some agony! Hope this helps others contemplating the kit.
If I find a solution will post, but looks to me it's going to take a different PS pulley, as well as spacing the Alt pulley.
Actually, one minor correction, just to be 100% correct on this topic. The PS pump bracket (and all other accessory brackets) used on Olds motors mounted in the Firebirds and T/As (350s and 403 were both used) are completely different from traditional Olds brackets. In the F-body application, Pontiac designed unique brackets for the accessories so that they would be in exactly the same positions as on a Pontiac motor. That doesn't apply to this thread, but I wanted to be sure there was no confusion.
Back up a sec. So are the pulleys in the same offset from the front of the block as a Pontiac? Or does it use the standard Pontiac pulleys with the 403 brackets?
Are there diagrams in the service manuals or assembly manuals that outline the dimensions?
Wonder if the Pontiac serpentine pulleys can be used with the 403 T/A brackets?
"Will fit 1965-1990 Oldsmobile V-8 engines and will work with either long or short water pumps. 2 sets #DMR-8230-1 spacer kit will adapt short water pump to fit in place of longer A/C pump. "
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I would love to hear how THREE different WP lengths fall into TWO categories of either "long" or "short"...
"Great for show application and will help eliminate throwing belts under high RPM applications."
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Well, there you go, you tried to idle it, didn't you. Not using it at high RPM.
"Comes with a black hard coat finish to prevent the belt from wearing the pulleys as can happen with normal aluminum pulley sets."
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Interesting. Powder coat?
No way to prevent that from entering the center bore during the process?
Back up a sec. So are the pulleys in the same offset from the front of the block as a Pontiac? Or does it use the standard Pontiac pulleys with the 403 brackets?
Are there diagrams in the service manuals or assembly manuals that outline the dimensions?
Wonder if the Pontiac serpentine pulleys can be used with the 403 T/A brackets?
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I should have stopped while I was ahead...
I have no knowledge of the Pontiac pulleys other than the info that the brackets and accessory locations are unlike those on any other Olds application. I can almost guarantee that a Pontiac (p)serpentine system will not fit an Olds motor with F-body brackets, however. Water pump is different, bolt patterns on the block are different, and who knows what else is different. The accessories are obviously the same, but as for pulley offset, who knows. Personally, I'd go grab a handful of Chevy multi-rib pulleys from a wrecking yard and mix and match.
Ha! Funny! Thank you though! Appreciate your input!
Mr. Miller called me back this morning, explained my situation, and he felt it's possible the folks who make the pulleys for him provided the wrong PS pulley. He will call then and verify, and ask if there is another available pulley that's .3125 offset as needed.
He was polite, seemed concerned, and was very helpful, if any are curious.
I will update once I have an answer from him.
I also am searching for a CNC job shop in the area, and am considering having a pulley made. I could also take an impression of the PS bracket, and have idler brackets made too, will have to price that all out before considering it.
If any know and can recommend a CNC shop that takes one-off jobs in the DC area, I would be all ears.
I also am searching for a CNC job shop in the area, and am considering having a pulley made. I could also take an impression of the PS bracket, and have idler brackets made too, will have to price that all out before considering it.
If any know and can recommend a CNC shop that takes one-off jobs in the DC area, I would be all ears.
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Good luck with that.
I went through this about 10 years ago when I had my small company in Loudoun Co. Needed machine shops for small, aerospace-grade parts. Unlike my time in SoCal, no one in the DC area manufactures anything...
Seriously, there are a couple, depending on how far you want to drive. There's Pro-Type in Sterling, but one of their main customers is Orbital Sciences, so prices are aerospace-grade. If you want to drive a little, I've had good results from Carl's Machine Shop in Amissville. That's a little west of Warrenton, so not a terrible drive from Manassas. Carl is a friend of a friend and has a very well equipped shop behind his house.
I'm not sure why you want CNC for a pulley - that's really just a turned part on a lathe. Brackets, I can understand.
Did you ask if you were the first customer to try this setup on an Olds engine?
Wasn't going to throw stones, it didn't deserve that pressure at the moment. If need be, I will turn it up, and will be compensated one way or another.
I did call CVF and ask about an ETA on a Olds serpentine setup, they said it's on the burner, though with other work in front of it, would be 6-12 mo out. They intend to offer an Olds solution, that alone was promising to hear. Shoot, they do an AMC setup, only thing they don't have is Olds at this point.
I went through this about 10 years ago when I had my small company in Loudoun Co. Needed machine shops for small, aerospace-grade parts. Unlike my time in SoCal, no one in the DC area manufactures anything...
Seriously, there are a couple, depending on how far you want to drive. There's Pro-Type in Sterling, but one of their main customers is Orbital Sciences, so prices are aerospace-grade. If you want to drive a little, I've had good results from Carl's Machine Shop in Amissville. That's a little west of Warrenton, so not a terrible drive from Manassas. Carl is a friend of a friend and has a very well equipped shop behind his house.
I'm not sure why you want CNC for a pulley - that's really just a turned part on a lathe. Brackets, I can understand.
Hm, Carl's, I've heard of that place several times, may just drive out there and see what's up. There's stuff that comes up time to time that would be nice if I had a shop that can one-off for me.
Oh. Sunday. Yeah, I can make that, will toss the v-belts back on and show up. I can brave the cold!
Oh. Sunday. Yeah, I can make that, will toss the v-belts back on and show up. I can brave the cold!
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Should be in the 50s by Sunday, but may be raining. At some point I'd like to take a drive down to Manassas and look at your serp setup to see the issues.
You're welcome to come by any time, will be here all week, working from home. PM me will give you my address.
Pretty sure it's strictly an issue with the PS pulley, I did a rough straight edge from the balancer pulley and it shows 5/16" inset. The Alt is the same distance off as the PS, but the shaft is long enough where it can be spaced. The PS and Alt pulleys are aligned/on the same plane as each other.
And spacing the whole assembly, alt & PS brackets, isn't an easy task, which would also require additional doctoring of the idler pulley/bracket. It's more work than I feel it's worth, easier to just get a properly spaced PS pulley.
My daughter uses this car as transportation, it's a daily driver, and being down for any length of time is an issue. I will be pushing it by going back to the v belt setup and back on the road Saturday, since the loaner she has is on it's last leg. If it is possible Mr. Miller finds an alternative pulley for me, than I can push it a week where I can get that in. Otherwise, for now, my only other option is to go back to the v belts.
If you have some ideas and want to look at it, I'm more than happy to entertain that idea. I really just want a reliable belt setup.
So was pondering over the pics and measurements, and it seems the PS bracket may be slightly angled. Thought maybe that it was the pics, an illusion, or maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. But the face of the bracket does not appear to be parallel with the face of the block.
So that I need to revisit, was thinking maybe the Olds PS bracket 101 thing with the bushing/spacer is getting me, but I know the original spacer is in there. From what I've read, it's supposed to be .409" thickness, so will disassemble and check that. That is the correct thickness for a SBO with PS & AC, right? Would be helpful if someone confirms for me. Anyway, going to take the bracket off and measure to see what I have.
One thing that I stated was the amount the PS pulley is off is @ 1/3", well, I may be in error there, since the WP pulley has an extra groove, and the way I was measuring may not have accounted for that. I also had taken a measurement from the face of the balancer pulley, and that I noted is only 5/32" off, which is .1562 . That doesn't seem to be enough of a difference to cause the belt walk, but maybe if the PS bracket isn't square to the face of the block, the combination is enough. (attached pic of notes)
I'll go out this afternoon, verify measurements, and the spacer thickness.
Spent a solid day on this yesterday, taking measurements in a bunch of ways, verifying all the original measurements, etc.
All the bracket mounts are correct, as well as the spacers, and the PS and Alt pulleys are square to the face of the balancer pulley.
After calculating the extra groove in the WP pulley into the equation, and the outer lip of the thicker balancer lip, total offset is .25, or 1/4", inboard, towards the block, of both the PS and ALT pulleys.
I attempted to space out the pulleys with shims, but the PS pump shaft is too short to allow for the retaining nut to properly retain the pulley. There's like 3 threads left after shimming, and that thing will fly off, no way am I risking that.
Not to mention, the area of contact on the machined area of the PS shaft is only .5 (1/2"), so it's questionable if that is enough to maintain the pulley to run true.
The Alt shaft is long enough to shim the pulley, but it's moot, since the PS in not possible to shim.
So, put all the v-belt stuff back on, and will have to get back to DMR tomorrow.
I called and asked Mr. Miller if they were accidentally not included and he stated that there were no instructions, that it was self-explanatory.
I explained my intended application for the install and he confirmed it would work. I asked before originally ordering and was told the same. I also asked what the belt length should be and was told to 'just measure to be sure'.
Back when I was installing A/C systems in Phoenix I had the opportunity to install plenty of aftermarket bracketry kits and align lots of pulley systems. Not one of those kits or systems came without instructions. EVER! Hard to understand sometimes and often vague, one was even hand drawn, but they always came with instructions. Any system or kit that involves more than two bolts and a spacer absolutely needs instructions. If the manufacturer cannot provide those instructions, they need to buy their product back from you! Just my $ .02
Might be easier to find another PS pump and have the shaft lengthened to what you need. That maybe cheaper than making another pulley. Rebuild kits are very cheap, and their easy to rebuild.
Lengthening the PS pump shaft is not an option, they are a standard length.
Called Mr. Miller back, he still claims he's not aware of any issues with the system, and has not heard of issues from others who have purchased the system. He told me my options are:
1) Find someone who has the kit and is having the same issues. He wants to talk to them, and if verified that there is an issue, he will accept the return or 'make it right'.
2) Pay to have them recoated and he will take them back.
Soooo, call out, is there anyone else who is running this setup or has attempted to install this setup?
A couple observations.....Are you sure that's not an underdrive setup? In that pic of the mockup, that balancer pulley looks mighty small in diameter.
Also I'm running a March setup, and had a squealing alt even with the serp setup because of the powdercoating on the pulleys, UNTIL I used a Goodyear gatorback belt, then no squeal since.
I'm not sure of anything, even the comment Mr. Miller made that he hasn't heard of other having similar problems. Shoot, no way the idler bracket works on later PS setups, it won't sit flat period.
1) Find someone who has the kit and is having the same issues. He wants to talk to them, and if verified that there is an issue, he will accept the return or 'make it right'.
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Thats bullsh!t. He will only accept a return on a potentially improperly manufactured product if YOU can find somebody else with the same issue. WTF.
If I told that to a customer, I'd be unemployed. Hell, I'd fire myself!
May be he can put you in contact with some of the others who have installed the system.
maybe he hasnt sold any other s ?? thus no complaints, i agree w nick he has a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the customer
surely theres someone on here or ROP that has bought this set-up ???
not a lot of matches w google search on dick miler serpentine (that dont goto dickmiller dot com)
but heres a couple i cant see if theres any images associated w the threads
I asked if he could get in touch with one of the others he's sold to, or give me the info, and he said he isn't in the biz of giving out customer's names. Kind of understand, but, making me prove it's an issue with the setup is pure BS.
I searched all over before and after I bought the system, one of my very first comments at the beginning of this thread. There isn't much out there.
I saw the pic over on ROP, and that pulley is different than the one I have, it has holes in it. If you look at how close mine is to the pump, and compare it to the one with holes, it's definitely different.
Maybe I can approach him with that pic on ROP and use that to justify. But somehow I think I'm screwed.
January 3rd, 2016, 07:05 AM
thus no complaints, i agree w nick he has a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the customer
