driverchoice

i have a 68 tech bulletin and serv guild book in it it states that the ramrod had 2.005 intake /1630 ex valves and 60.58 cyl head volume as opposed to 64 cc for a regular #5 head was this done by milling or is it a different design may be like a #4 head??? i thought only diff was the size valve in the heads

driverchoice

how did they achieve this w/those castings

coppercutlass

i belive the mondello book specifies the specs required to run nhra legal . max bore , cc's , cam , etc.

SBORule

It's probably a typo that wasn't caught, probably meant to say 63.58 cc's.

driverchoice

[PHP]It's probably a typo that wasn't caught, probably meant to say 63.58 cc's.[/P i dont think so its specificaly states again later in the text that the chamber volume is less than the standard 350

joe_padavano

This comes up all the time. Do not confuse as-cast chamber size with the NHRA blueprint spec. The as-cast number is always larger. This allows the head to be milled as part of a normal rebuild and still not exceed the blueprint CR.

driverchoice

so how much is milled of to make it 60 cc from 64

TripDeuces

I think the figure is .006 per 1cc

Warhead

You mean how much do you have to mill to get it from 68cc's+ down to 60cc's?

ALL factory #5's came through 68-69cc's.
1 valve job, and it will be in the 70's.
You will have to cut at least .060 off the heads to get it down there, sometimes more.
Talk to your machinist.

driverchoice

442.com says 64 cc but whatever im just wondering what the factory did -had the heads milled and put bigger valve in or were they a special casting even though they had a 5 on them

Indy_68_S

AFAIK, The only difference between the regular #5 heads and the W-31 #5 heads was the valve size. Everything else was exactly the same. Same castings, ports, cc's, etc..

They just took regular production line heads and fitted them with BBO valves.

& 442.com has some misinformation....

Like Warhead said, stock #5's are ~68-69cc. Mine measured out to 67.5 after installing the BBO size valves & a ~.005 cleanup pass...

driverchoice

[IMG]OH1rH.jpg[/IMG]

Warhead

Key word being- min (minimum), being that a head cut down to this volume would still be legal for NHRA tech inspector teardown at any national event.
One chamber will be measured from a single removed head during such tear down, to assure it is at spec, or larger.
That's just one reason why they ran better in "stock" classes.
The typical 350 built to these specs usually made much more HP.

They may have that in the manual, it just did not come down the assembly line like that.
Note, also the deck clearance at .002.

BTW, the pistons in a true W-31 had true flat tops, no dish.

I LIKE you due diligence, however.
Keep up the good work.

driverchoice

THANKS HERES MORE DUE DILIGENCE,SO WERE THE HEADS MILLED FROM THE FACTORY BESIDES HAVING BIG VALVES INSTALLED OunGdk.jpgR NOT

joe_padavano

I don't know why this is always such a difficult concept for people to grasp. The 60 cc number is the MINIMUM blueprint number. Due to production tolerances it is almost never the as-delivered number. This is why stock "blueprinted" engines make more power than a run-of-the-mill production engine. The NHRA specs (which are what are quoted in that dealer bulletin) are the design blueprint numbers to allow racers to machine the parts for maximum performance. Haven't you ever wondered why NHRA "stock" class cars tend to be about 2 seconds quicker in the quarter mile than any similar production car you've ever seen?

Warhead

Answer= NO

Using the absolute minimums-
.002 deck
61cc chamber
and the magical 67.92 cc overall volume
You would end up with an 11.55:1 compression ratio, over a full point over what they were built with.


Jim

driverchoice

i guess im just hung up on were it says the combustion chamber volume is less than the standard 350 ,and to me this is put out to the mechanics in the dealerships for warranty work not the racerers no?

driverchoice

not saying that they cc the head for warranty work just that maybe there was a diff procedure when working on a w31 because it was a special head maybe there was machining involved to the head if replaced ,did they come w/ big valves under a diff part # and were they milled because it says the combustion chamber is less than the standard 350 all im saying is this tech sheet makes me believe there was more than just a valve swap done to these heads

70Post

Where on that tech sheet does it say these heads were milled? (Maybe I overlooked it)

If it doesn't say they are milled then maybe you are misinterpreting what they are referring to as the "combustion chamber"....

>Possibly the "factory" considers the combustion chamber to have TWO COMPONENTS - 1) The chamber cast into the head itself AND 2) The DISH IN THE PISTON (Note: you also have the amount the pistons are "in the hole" but I bet the crank stroke and piston height are the same so there's no variation there b/n W31 and non-W31 350's).

>Thus....with a smaller piston dish and the same "chamber" in the head you have an OVERALL smaller "chamber".

You can throw cold water all over my interpretation if you can show me where they say the heads are actually milled down to reduce the chamber size in the heads.

Chesrown 67 OAI

The 68 Ramrod project was almost a well-kept secret around Oldsmobile. In addition the the discussion about the "advertised" CC volume, there is also the well-know difference in the Ramrod using the flat-top piston instead of the dish. To add further question to the discussion, hasnt anyone "wondered" out loud why the Ramrod motor came from the factory equipped with that huge oversized harmonic balancer that all of todays W-31 builders are chasing after? Who can give a logical answer to that question? The real unpublished answer to your head CC question about the factory 68 Ramrod is that those motors WERE prepared separately away from the normal engine production line and YES the factory heads WERE milled at the time the larger valves were installed. We had two factory 68 Ramrod motors and both sets of heads checked out at around 63 CC from the factory as compared to what is common knowledge of a stock #5 head coming from factory at around 68CC.
You gotta go find those guys that were "there" in order to find the real "skinny" on this stuff!! You gotta remember Olds factory racing was trying to get an edge on Pontiac and others at the time and many things were kept very "hush-Hush" --- and also dont forget the fact that Olds racing gurus had a history of furnishing NHRA with "mis-information" about their "W" program stuff too!! It was all a factory "chess game" among the Big 3 at the time. Lest we forget that Chrysler had their HC Max Wedge 426 rated at 425HP and followed it up with the 426 Hemi rated at exactly same 425HP! Hmmmmm???

Now if you want a real challenge for your Ramrod project --- then go find yourself one of those W-31 Harmonic Balancers!! And if you happed to find 2 of em --- I'll gladly give you about $600 for one of em!!! Happy hunting!!

Dave Siltman

Tweed is an "old-time" Olds racer has some knowledge from hands-on experience. Oldsmobile was "playing poker" with the W-31 program and only showed their hand when it was time to rake in the pot. Certain teams that were "helped" with "back-door" factory assistance kept their mouths shut and were given "special" parts and information that the general public knew nothing about. The W-31 balancer wasn't there for looks---can you say 6500rpm launches? Can you say 7700rpm in the traps? The W-31 was a "KILLER" and about the only problem it had and reason it didn't win more than it did was because it fell into the bottom of the class due to the car's weight. For comparison, in 1969, a Cutlass W-31 went head to head with a Z/28 Camaro in F/S---later that Z/28 was moved up to E/S and then to D/S and the Cutlass dropped to G/S, from heads-up to three classes apart. Way to go Ron Garey!
The specs for N.H.R.A. weren't for the retail public----not too many people bought a brand new car, sent the motor to be built to live on the edge, and drove it on the street----those specs were meant for the tear-down barn after a class win or National Record run.

driverchoice

hey thanks now im getting some answers

Paladin31

Hey Joe do you have any information casting #'s etc on the balancers? Thanks, Brett

Chesrown 67 OAI

Thanks Dave Siltman for your input above!
"Tight-lipped" - it Certainly was!! Someone above said the ramrod heads carried a different part # - TRUE -- but NOT a different CASTING Number!!
They were all #5 head castings.
Here is a direct quote from a friend of mine (who shall remain nameless) who was there as an engineer on the Ramrod project from its inception and has related countless "inside info unspoken stories" to me about those first "50" Ramrods -- as well as those few "Pre-Production" models that were built "outside" and before those "well-known" and talked-about first "50" units.
Heres what he told me yesterday about those specially prepped #5 heads.
PAY ATTENTION HERE BOYS---

"There were many special things on some of those first 50 Ramrods built. For numerous reasons, they were built on what was called a red border engineering release not a production release. That was like a GM COPO except internal to Oldsmobile. It gave authorization to make many special modifications from production in both content and process. I don't think any of those cars were ordered at dealers unless they had inside info for their sponsored race cars. Many never left Lansing and were used for all kinds of purposes from test and development to demos and magazine cars, and a myriad of special uses. Some were later sold as company used vehicles if you had connections. They had to be updated to full production release levels for legality. Many were scrapped, or given out as scrap through Dale Smith.

The rest of the 500 cars built online were full blown production cars salable to the public directly. Those are the 450 that I tracked and updated production management with their status. All 500 got the same engine packages regardless of the first 50 or not. All the spare and extra engines built in this program were also identical with many special components and dyno tested to verify minimum performance.

The heads were very unique and differed from 69 and 70 w31 heads in the castings and the machining and assembly. They were done totally at an outside company and shipped into the Olds engine plant in pairs in separate boxes. Later ones were totally built in the engine plant with production castings.

The castings used for those 68's were trick, but not identified. There was a little difference in the ports and unless you knew exactly what you were looking for, would never spot it. They were also very carefully cast to be balanced and identical in all cylinders. Machining also was state of the art at that time and all cc's were verified as dead nuts. They had special Swedish steel springs, sodium filled valves (not same as production big car 2 inch valves). Dale used to send out sets of these heads as well as complete motors to the race teams to upgrade their 1969 and 1970 cars as the production built cars didn't have these special castings, and I'm not even sure about the special springs and valves. Also being production machined and not flow checked, it's highly unlikely they would perform the same. You could, of course, have stock eliminator quality heads made on the outside to give better performance than that."

And THAT, my friends -- is "The rest of the story"!! At least one of em"!! LOL

380 Racer

Paladin31

Gotcha Joe, so same appearance but with diff p#'s @ casting #'s for all years Thank you