Hello gents.

Need some help here.

Decided to fit electronic ignition to my 57 Golden Rocket. Both myself and a mechanic friend can get around an engine but this has us both (and many other friends stumped).

Removed distributor - we didn't mark it as it was to be rebuilt (mistake I know).

Anyhow. build the distributor to accept the electronic kit including shimming the shaft to decrease end float as per instructions, the mechanic did not mark the drive gear 2nd mistake. Fitted distributor to TDC and #1 piston on compression stroke. fitted new coil, ballast resistor and plugs.

Engine fires up - just but won't pick up on revs. as if timing is way retarded.

There's no blow back through the carb.

We have just finished going back to stock set up (put points back in, original coil, ballast resistor, plugs, removed shims) and engine is still the same.

1) If the distributor drive gear wheel is out by 180deg can this cause a timing issue, there was no dimple on the gear wheel.
2) The advance and retard pipe is not connected to the distributor (we were hoping to fire up and strobe afterwards), could this be at fault.
3) Is there a special way to set up timing. We checked to see the rotor was not 180deg out. We have checked TDC and Rotor points to #1 cylinder on the distributor cap, leads are correct over and over again.
4) Checked ground wire inside distributor, wire is ok.

Has anyone else had the same or similar problems, please advise.

Many thanks.

David

 

Which kit did you put in, as some require a full 12v. What is your timing set to? does it advance? Some also need 8mm wires.

 

OK, first, the engine wouldn't even run if it were 180 deg out, so that's not a problem. Second, you never said that you actually put a timing light on the engine after you started it. Third, are you SURE that the plug wires are all in the right places? Fourth, while you don't need the vac advance connected at the moment, have you plugged it (and any other vacuum leaks)? Fifth, is there any chance that you messed up the mechanical advance mechanism while the distributor was apart? Sixth, what else did you do to the car while you were installing the electronic ignition?

 

Hello Oldcutlass - The system was the igniter setup. This has all been removed and all previous parts have been replaced.

Hello Joe - Previous to the distributor being taken out, I strobed it and it was firing 20 deg BTDC.

We can only just get it ticking over now by putting some pressure on the gas pedal, strobe now informs us it's firing on TDC.

We checked plug leads and everything else at least 12-15 times over, all correct and running in counter clockwise direction.

Vacuum not plugged - good point,will mention to the mechanic.

Don't think the mechanical advance mechanism was touched, I'll confirm with the mechanic.

Only electronic ignition was fitted along with new coil, ballast resistor,plugs - we have now replaced all items back to before the electronic ignition was installed but we still have the same problem.

The engine struggles to tick over and will not pick up when the gas pedal is depressed.

Thanks.

 

It will not run with the timing set at TDC, rotate the distributor and set it to the same setting it was before you started.

The ignitor setup requires I believe full voltage, no ballast resistor.

 

Hello again Oldcutlass.

We're going to have a few nights away from the fumes (cold garage). The mechanic is going to rotate the gear drive wheel 180 deg - we will be able to change this again if required. I'm going to do as you say and even hook up the adv/ret pipe, fire up the engine and take a strobe reading. Then I will advance or retard the rotor until I get that 20 deg BTDC I had before it was pulled apart.

If we statically set the timing, would the counter clockwise motion of the running engine pull the rotor down further and displace the timing. There's a good size end float on this distributor.

We are unsure but it's possible someone may have had worked on the engine previously to me owning it and the timing marks are not correct.

As I say the car when set up for the electronic ignition and also now being back to the original points set up before we changed things will fire up but you have to hold the gas pedal down to keep it running. It's as lumpy as heck. Same bad running on both setups. We guess that we are being thrown out by setting the timing.

I have ordered a new rotor and cap today, again to eliminate any issues.

This one's a real stumper.

Thanks again.

 

So you haven't actually put a timing light on the motor since you reinstalled the distributor?

DING DING DING We have a winner.

Note that the engine doesn't need to actually be running for the timing light to work. You can use the timing light while the engine is being cranked also. Just rotate the distributor until you get the correct setting.

 

I'll answer your questions in bold letters:




Let us know how it turns out.

 

Hello Joe.

We have strobed the engine since it has been put back to original set up. It was strobing at TDC. We have twisted the distributor to its extreme adv and ret, didn't affect running very much.
Regards..

 

Hello Oldcutlass.

Thank you for the reply. We did try 180 out on the rotor and car didn't run, so we have reversed that thought. We believe the gear wheel only maybe 180 out. We can not see a dimple on it, but I have read of roll pin between or just on gear teeth, get it wrong and the timing can be a issue.

We have the ballast resistor wired up. I'll get the mechanic to check the dwell again on the points.

TDC seems to line up with the TDC mark on the balancer. We have checked and checked and checked, we're starting to doubt our setting up.

We'll have another go Thursday evening. Once sussed, I'll write up our findings, it may take a while.

Regards.

 

How did it run before you started this exercise? All that changing teh gear position does is to move where #1 would be wired to on the cap based on rotor position.

 

Engine ran beautifully. Exercise was to make reliable. Certainly has caused more trouble than it's worth.

Regards

 

It will work I assure you.

 

Have you checked the firing order? Counterclockwise 1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2 not the same as the '65 and newer Olds engines. If it is wired 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 the engine will have a miss on #4 and #7 cylinders.
If your engine needs 20 degrees advance @ idle just to run, you've got timing chain problems. Your 371 wants to be timed in at 5 BTDC @ 460 RPM.

 

I think that timing setting he referred to was with manifold vacuum.

 

All initial timing (in those days anyway) was set with the vacuum line disconnected from the distributor and the line plugged (I use a golf "T").

 

I was just following his lead on this.

 

Hello Van Dyck.

We have checked the leads over and over again. We followed the firing order stamped on the inlet manifold.

The 20deg BTDC was recorded before we started the job and the advance/retard pipe was connected to carb and distributor.

Now a silly question, if I'm to disconnect the advance pipe from the carb, do I plug the pipe or the now hole in the carb as descriptions can read different here in the UK.

Regards.

 

Sometimes it may be easier to work that on the carb side also. You need to plug the vacuum leak, whether it's the pipe or the carb port.

 

Hey thank you Oldcutlass. I'll give it a try and report back on Thursday.

Regards.

 

Whether a steel line (pipe) or small rubber hose, disconnect at the distributor and plug that vacuum line (pipe) during the procedure of strobing your timing. My service manual says that this can be done with the engine running at 850RPM or less (but not faster). After the initial timing is set, reconnect the vacuum line.
FYI, the engine in my avatar is a 324 bored out to 346. Picture was taken in the summer of 1964. This very engine is alive and well today. It has a Motorcraft (Ford) electronic distributor grafted to the Olds housing and triggers a MSD 6A module.
I've installed 3 Pertronix units in SBCs, used their spacers to reduce shaft end play. Be sure the red wire is connected to the "+" on the coil and the black wire to the "-" coil terminal. Just don't leave the ignition switch turned on with the engine not running: some fellows claim they have had Pertronics units fail as a result.

 

Thank you for the information Van Dyck and Coldwar, we'll double check this on Thursday. We did follow the instructions to the letter that came with the kit and also when we went back to points, we followed a colour wiring diagram printout.

On the points set up, we joined yellow wire from ignition switch to ballast resistor and the black wire from the ignition switch as connected to the black wire to the opposite connector on the ballast resistor with the black wire from the coil negative terminal.

I'm hoping the problem is to do with not plugging the vacuum line as from reading vacuum leak symptoms on the internet, the engine seems to be behaving as described.

Regards.

 

Hello Gents.

We think we have found the problem.

Everything was put back to original. We plugged the vacuum hose and tried to fire up. Engine wasn't happy again. We thought it can't be a timing issue anymore as we can advance and retard the distributor to almost the next lead either side of #1 TDC.

We changed the rotor - no change. We then also changed the distributor cap. Bingo, she fired up and ticked over perfectly. We dipped the gas pedal a bit, not too much to get a bit of rev. The engine then went back to lopping around and wouldn't tick over again.

We checked inside the distributor caps and it looks like the rotor has been hitting the contact posts. We need to find a way now to ensure the rotor runs under the posts, maybe new distributor base gaskets as the old one had rotted away. I have ordered 2 base gaskets, and new cap and rotor.

I'll keep you all posted on the progression of this one.

Regards.

 

Take the shims out. Glad you got it going

 

Um...

Shims between the distributor gear and the bottom of the housing will pull the rotor DOWN and AWAY from the cap. You don't want to take them out.

Look for worn bushings in the distributor housing. Does the shaft have side-to-side looseness in the housing?

Also, be aware of improperly made cap and rotor. I had exactly this problem years ago. The new cap and rotor I installed were not made properly. Yet another new pair fixed the problem.

 

He put shims in, and stated the rotor was hitting the contacts.

 

On many occasions I have found that the dizzy cap was not properly seated when installed ... the rotor should rotate inside of the contacts. If the rotor was hitting the bottom of the contacts it is likely it was not installed to seat properly on the housing.

 

That doesn't mean that the two are related. He put the electronic conversion in at the same time. Did THAT cause the rotor to hit?

Again, shimming between the gear and the bottom of the housing pulls the rotor DOWN, away from the cap. Please explain how it is physically possible for this to cause contact.

 

sorry your right brainfart!

 

Hello Gents.

Well we spent Thursday evening and all day Saturday in the garage. We took the shims out and noticed the rotor was sitting too low. We had to make a shim to keep the rotor up, fitting it on the shaft under the bob weights. After adding the shim, we had a measurement of 62mm from side base of the distributor to rotor tip. The measurement would take the rotor edge to half way down each of the contacts on the distributor cap. Still wont run. It looks like major arcing issues.

We've had to throw in the towel. The car's being collected tomorrow to go to a repair garage, thank goodness they specialize in classic American cars.

I believe that the distributor has gone bad from disturbing it. Would anyone know a cross reference for a modern distributor that will fit the 371 block. Mallory or other.

Thank you to everyone on their helpful comments, as soon as I know what the problem is, I'll post the answer here to help others.

Regards.

 

Where in the instructions did it tell you to put shims in? I just read the Ignitor instructions and didn't see anything about that.

 

Nothing fits but the appropriate first gen Olds distributors. You CAN find aftermarket distributors for that family, however.

On the other hand, let's back up. The car ran before you pulled the distributor, so something you did causes it not to run now. Rather than shipping the whole car off, I would start by having the distributor rebuilt by someone who has a distributor machine. Once you know the distributor is good, then you can troubleshoot more effectively.

 

Hello Gents.

We got there in the end. I had some old brittle ignition switch wiring and by installing the electronic kit pushed the wire over the edge.

Obviously the suspect wire has been replaced. The car runs like a dream. But..... Last question, the Pertronix Igniter 1181 and flame thrower coil has been installed, car runs great, do we install the ballast resistor or not with this set up. It's currently not wired in. The instructions that came with the kit contradict themselves. So I thought to ask you professionals and may be someone on this site who has fitted one of these kits.

A big thank you again for all your help.

Regards.

 

To the best of my knowledge the pertronics does not require a balast resistor, it needs full battery voltage.

Again glad you got it.