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Hello Everyone !
I'm new here, french guy discovering the forum and looking for some help.
Maybe somebody could help about a big problem i'm dealing with...
I'm modifying the 403 Olds of my '79 Transam. I've replaced the camshaft by a roller one from comp cams. Roller lifters are from comp cams too.
Problem is lifters hit the 2711 Edelbrock intake manifold on cylinders 4, 6 and 3. I resolved cylinder 6 and 3 lifter clearance problem by slightly grinding the intake. But this solution can't be used for cylinder 4 lifters because too much material have to be removed.
I've tried to flip the lifters, so the link plate is facing toward the block. It works for the clearance but in this configuration, the pushrod hit the rivet of the link plate of the lifter. Even if I use 5/16 or 3/8 pushrod.
I must keep the 2711 intake because of the shaker hood clearance.
I must admit that I lack of idea. Is anyone knows this problem ? Is there a solution, like anoter lifters I don't found ?
Thanks for your help.
Regards
Last edited by Crisis001; April 30th, 2024 at 05:01 AM.
Due to necessity of keeping the 2711, which has a heat crossover that reaches deep into the lifter valley, I’ll tell you my solution in the past but don’t know if it will be suitable for you.
IMO, a performance engine should not have active exhaust crossover, even if operated in cold temperatures. On my engines, heads either had no provision for crossover or always had crossovers filled with molten metal, which prevented any exhaust from entering crossover of intake. I then ground right through the bottom of the crossover on 2711’s, plus a bit of safety margin, in areas of lifter contact.
I would not trust the Edelbrock (cast iron plug) or Mondello (stainless plate) block off “blanks” to completely or reliably seal off that cavity. If “pouring” the heads is out of the question, maybe a welded plate in each head could work, but I’ve never tried something like that. Obviously that would have to be done carefully and gradually to avoid or minimize distortion.
A standard “turkey tray” intake gasket will not work with that intake either, iirc. I used composite gaskets with no valley shield, there just isn’t enough room in there with a 2711 and/or rollers. The shield really isn’t necessary if there is no exhaust heat in crossover. On my regular intakes, fwiw, I have the bottom coated with aerospace heat barrier to make me feel better with no shield in the valley but they never have an active crossover.
Another option might be obtaining an OE Olds “A4” intake if you want an aluminum manifold. It has been a long time since I had one in hand and don’t remember it having as deep a crossover as 2711.
The above is my experience and hopefully someone knows an easier, cheaper, though still effective way to solve your problem.
….
Last edited by bccan; April 30th, 2024 at 04:40 AM.
Our resident machinist BillK did this on a 307. Of course I couldn't find an A4 on Ebay but I found a cast iron #17 307 intake. Had multiple in my hands over the years. The A4 is extremely rare up here, only one I have seen both sides was one I bought used from the US. Pretty sure it was similar to this #17.
Can’t use the 2711 or 3711 with roller lifters. Only the 7111, which you can get a drop base for to work with the TA Shaker hood. Check online. Better intake for a 403 anyway.
If “pouring” the heads is out of the question, maybe a welded plate in each head could work
How about welding aluminum plates in the intake manifold crossover ports? That was done on my Performer RPM intake (7111) to block the exhaust crossover, but I don't know where the lifter interference is and if the plates would be far enough away from the area that needs to be ground for clearance.
Can’t use the 2711 or 3711 with roller lifters. Only the 7111, which you can get a drop base for to work with the TA Shaker hood. Check online. Better intake for a 403 anyway.
I’ve done it twice with 2711s but sins were committed & what could be fairly considered Micky Mousery was in effect with grinding right through into crossover. That said, both of those engines ran for years without issue but the heads were filled so that saved half the battle. 7111 seems to be a reasonable solution if it can be pulled off with drop base and as Mark said, the 7111 is a better manifold.
I also like Fun71’s idea with welding plates in the intake, that’s a much better idea than welding them in the heads like I mentioned, don’t know why I didn’t think of the easy route!
Thank you all !!!
It's touching a lot to see so many of you helping me with good ideas.
(I hope my english is good)
So, it appears to me that blocking crossover ports and then freely grinding the intake crossover canal could be an interresting solution.
Heads are already installed on the block so it will be a little bit difficult to block ports on them. So I'll try to weld blockoff plates into the intake.
Guess that if I open the crossover canal under the intake I can weld from inside, avoiding any damage on surface that facing the heads...
I'll ask a machiner, just to be advised.
I don't known that 7111 Edelbrock intake has possibility to respect shaker hood clearance.
It's an another way to resolve my problem, I'll check that for sure ! Probably costly than welding aluminium but cleaner
Maybe there are other solutions to come !?
Anyway, Thanks again !!!
Like Olds 307 said, I did it on the 307 in my Wife's Riviera. I had to flip the lifters and I got real bold and actually ground the rivets just enough to barely clear the pushrods. Its been fine for 4 or so years now and probably 6k miles. I have pictures somewhere. I dont think you could grind the intake enough to clear. At least not with the Morel lifters that I used.
When I was doing mine I had looked at Mondello's site and they had a lifter that was clearanced and looked like it would work but .... it was not available
BUT ....... I have a 350 I am putting together right now and I have a set of the Comp 85701-16 lifters. I just tried flipping one pair over with the link bars against the cylinders and it actually looks like it might work ? They do not have a rivet. They use a countersunk screw instead. Ill have to put a couple of pushrods and rockers on and see for sure. And I was able to get the lifters in with the head on.
The last pic I saw of someone trying to make a 2711 work, it looked like they needed to grind on one of the runners as well? Just asking.
The only picture I have of the bottom of the intake looks like I probably ground off the crossover passage if anything. I dont remember if I did that because of the Turkey tray or to clear lifters.
BUT ....... I have a 350 I am putting together right now and I have a set of the Comp 85701-16 lifters. I just tried flipping one pair over with the link bars against the cylinders and it actually looks like it might work ? They do not have a rivet. They use a countersunk screw instead. Ill have to put a couple of pushrods and rockers on and see for sure. And I was able to get the lifters in with the head on.
Very interresting.
I'm not sure but for what I know, 85701-16 comp Cams lifters haven't any linkbar and they are for stock flat tappet camshaft !? Isn't it ?
Very interresting.
I'm not sure but for what I know, 85701-16 comp Cams lifters haven't any linkbar and they are for stock flat tappet camshaft !? Isn't it ?
The 85701-16 lifters are the "evolution" roller lifters with replaceable cartridges. Here is a picture of one in the engine I am building with them flipped over. Its tight but should work. Might have to grind just slightly at the top but its not anything that would hurt.
Only problem is I dont think they are available right now. My customer is not using the low intake so its not a problem for me on this build.
The 85701-16 lifters are the "evolution" roller lifters with replaceable cartridges. Here is a picture of one in the engine I am building with them flipped over. Its tight but should work. Might have to grind just slightly at the top but its not anything that would hurt.
Only problem is I dont think they are available right now.
Great save, thanks Bill K!
Crisis001 - did you get a Turkey tray gasket in there or use composite?
This turned out to be very informative.
…
Yes, Thanks BillK. Thank you all !!!
Thanks to BillK, the valve train is now achieved. And thanks to Bccan, I'll block the crossover pipe on the intake.
Valley pan gasket doesn't fit so I've bought this one : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sce-179101
Chris,
Glad you got it to work Looks like you did not even have to grind the rivet like I did. Did you check it at full lift ??
Just wondering why you are using 3/8 pushrods ? Really not needed.
A lot of times Summits pictures are generic pictures. That's why I never go by their pictures or listen to their tech people.
Many thanks to you. Honestly, grinding the lifters went through my mind but I was not bold enough to do it. Seeing your picture was very instructive and gave me trust to try.
I've slightly ground the rivet.
And yes, I tried complete lifters movement with rocker and pushrod, preloading lifter, full lift, etc.
I'm using 3/8 just because I thought it will be better when beefing up my 403. I've switched 4a heads by a pair of 6 ones, rollercamshaft, roller rockers, Edelbrock intake and carb (800cfm), exhaut manifold/4in1 by Thornton...
Wanted to do things as best as I can.
Not easy to restore an american car in France. Regardless the cost, there is no one here well knowing this engine. For exemple, I've put a '91 th700r4 fully restored on my Transam, absolutely all by myself. Because the most of mechanics heads here don't know how to (and have broken my th700 trying to install it).
Internet, Youtube and this Forum... you people, are helping me a lot
Last edited by Crisis001; May 4th, 2024 at 12:24 PM.
These are the Mondello plates I mentioned early in the thread, I’ve used them long ago, they are decent pieces and they do work. BUT, I don’t remember how they hold up over time, ie whether they eventually burn through. My guess is that by the time you get them in hand, in France, you’ll be noticeably older than you are now and will likely have spent nearly the same money as having someone TIG weld plates in your manifold locally.
Finding some suitable stainless stock, like referenced in the vid would be expedient and cheap, I would want material slightly heavier than a can. Just cut out some of the gasket thickness so there isn’t a bump at the crossover. It will work, just not sure if permanent or for only a couple of years.
Nice looking motor, should perform well. Hopefully the POS 700R4 trans holds up. They are not strong, especially behind a 9 to 1 Olds 403’s torque production. I used the Edelbrock plugs, they required a lot of grinding.The plates would install much easier. What carb are you using?
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; May 4th, 2024 at 07:17 AM.
Let us know if those lifters rattle. I went through 2 sets of Morels and they were louder than the solids I have in the car now. I'm not saying this to start trouble. I'm genuinely curious if they fixed the issues that they had going on.
Last edited by olds_freak; May 5th, 2024 at 02:53 PM.
Nice looking motor, should perform well. Hopefully the POS 700R4 trans holds up. They are not strong, especially behind a 9 to 1 Olds 403’s torque production. I used the Edelbrock plugs, they required a lot of grinding.The plates would install much easier. What carb are you using?
My 700 has been fully restored and modified. Body Valve TCI with constant pressure, Renforced clutch, Servo corvette, full sonnax valves, pinless TCI accumulators, TCI navigator and TCI torque converter. This trans is now a way more reliable and strong. =)
Ready to deal with my new 403. =P
And I'm using an Edelbrock AVS 2 800cfm carb'.
Let us know if those lifters rattle. I went through 2 sets of Morels and they were louder than the solids I have in the car now. I'm not saying this to start trouble. I'm genuinely curious if they fixed the issues that they had going on.
Ok, I'll tell you my feedback. But these are not Morels => I guess that you've noticed I use Comp cams lifters. =)
April 30th, 2024, 03:54 AM
