1965F85_scholten

I rebuilt my 65 Olds 330 over the course of the last 6 months or so. Finally finished it about a month ago. Could never get the timing right, very lopy at idle, but it did run and fire up. Found out today from a local shop that the cam was for a 350, not a 330. Big difference in the angle - 39 vs. 45.

I used a local engine re-builder that did all the machine work, rebuilt the heads, sold me all the bearings, rings, etc. valve work - and did great work. He also advised me on, ordered and sold me the cam I was supposed to have from Comp Cam. All this knowing the block size, year, etc.

I installed the cam, assembled and installed the motor, etc. with a lot of help from a mechanic/friend. This was my first rodeo so to speak.

I think you know who's fault I think this is, but wanted to ask this group opinions on who should be responsible for this mistake and what recourse/compensation, if any, you think I should ask for. Documentation is in the form of a receipt for all the work he did with a line item for the cam, what block it was for, etc.

I am not mad at this point, because I think it was an honest mistake and the shop is not denying nor accepting responsibility-YET. I think they are in the background researching their options and perhaps trying to figure out if they can find fault elsewhere.

Thanks for all your opinions!

Oldsmaniac

Well it is his fault and should provide the correct cam for free. There should not be any engine damage from installing the wrong cam. It would be great if you could make him install the new cam as well.

oldstata

My opinion is as long as you provided correct info year make and so on it is the shops responsibility to provide you with correct parts , with this said a lot of shops don't have very much knowlege of olds motors so it is a honest mistake and its always a good reason to double check parts and part numbers.

Not a hundred percent here but I do believe that there was a 39 degree bank angle 330 so this block the 350 cam you were sold would have worked

Edit : I don't even think there is a cam avalible for the 65 330 when I was looking it was a custom grind maybe I am wrong here

Lee_A

For me, I say the supplier should give you a correct cam, new lifters, and a set of gaskets. With those, it would be up to you to install them.

Good luck!

MDchanic

If you called up Comp Cams or Edelbrock, or Summit, or whoever, and ordered a cam for this specific engine, and they sent you the wrong cam, they would send you the right one once they discovered their error.
There is a clear reference that says which cam goes with which engine, and this cam does not go with this engine.
There are no shades of grey here.

I agree that the shop should give you a new cam, lifters, and intake and timing gasket sets. It would be great if they also offered to install it, but the smart move would be for you to install it yourself anyway, to be sure it is done right.



I blame Society.

- Eric

rcrac3r

I would say the engine shop as well. Without actually talking to CompCams the online list for camshafts looks to go back only to 1967 for Oldsmobile.

oldcutlass

I would think you should be able to work something out with the shop. Clearly they were at fault. It would be less expensive to settle with you than litigation.

1965F85_scholten

Well the engine builder called me , late at night, by the way, so I think he is stressing about this. He still is somewhat non- committal and says the book was generic enough that it said this size cam for this size of a block. I think he said 260 - 400 or a range like that. He said he's a team player and will work with me on this but is still hopeful that the cam is right or that comp cam has an explanation for why the book said what it said. He's going to talk to the technical guys at comp cam to find out the details tomorrow. I know all he's going to find out is that I need a different cam (which by the way he even said it could be a custom grind). Anyway, he committed at the end that IF this turns out to be the wrong one he'll refund me the cost of the cam.

That's a good start but not enough!!!

Octania

wHO ASSEMBLED THE ENGINE?

Sorry, damn caps lock.

Besides the 45 vs 39 thing which is hard even for dyed in the wool Olds experts to keep track of...

The engine assembler should have degreed in the cam, which would have shown that the events were pretty far off.

I know, a lot of folks blow off the degreeing and just stick it in straight up or a bit advanced.... and MOST of the time, that works OK... but look at the hassle caused those times when it is NOT ok.

I agree that no damage should be done. Easy fix... I once used my 330 cam in a 403, 'cause I was unaware of the 39/45 thing. Ran like CRAP. Went back to stock 403 cam, much better. The 45' cam was very spicy in the 330. NICE little 4-spd motor with HC, home ported #5 heads, Offenhauser split port intake, new Holley 750 double pumper, headers... my first real new engine.

1965F85_scholten

I assembled it, with a lot of help from my friend/mechanic

RetroRanger

when he calls back and if he states its the wrong cam, at that point I would say in a friendly way ah that stinks oh well stuff happens tell ya what hook me up w the right cam lifters and gaskets and we'll call it even....that is assuming thats all you need to make it right.

Sometimes in a situation like this he may be expecting the worst, if you lay out to him what will make you happy he will jump on it and make it right....

oldcutlass

You assembled it the first time?

1965F85_scholten

I assembled the engine this last time, with the wrong cam in it. Any other assembly was prior to my ownership. The new (wrong cam) is still installed. The shop I took it to figured out the problem by research, not any kind of diagnostics.

oldstata

x2

edzolz

[QUOTE=oldstata;580186 Not a hundred percent here but I do believe that there was a 39 degree bank angle 330 so this block the 350 cam you were sold would have worked
[/QUOTE]

There were 39 deg 330 blocks. They were the 67's with #3 casting above the water pump. #1 and #2 casting 330 blocks are 45 deg.

cutlassefi

Sorry you've had this inconvenience, unfortunately you're not the first.

If you need help getting the right cam let me know, that's what I do.

Thanks

pogo69

I think the bottom line to me is that you installed the cam and if the cam was boxed its up to you to confirm part numbers before you install anything...a replacement cam is what would see as fair

halfmoontrail

Contrary opinion - I think it is your fault, and anything the machine shop does in terms of compensation/replacement would be a wonderful bonus. If they do so, then it becomes your further responsibility to share your good experience with others so they can maintain or grow their business.

You installed the wrong cam in your engine, and you've said nothing negative about the quality of their macghine work or any of the other parts - you hired them for machining, assembly was your part as you've stated.

Steve

m371961

X2 The assembler is the last quality control. If a crankshaft is cut and the assembler installs standard bearing because the shop supplied them, or they came in the wrong box, the assembler is still at fault for not verifing fit. Anything you get from the shop is a bonus from someone concerned about his rep.

MDchanic

I don't see how it's the OP's fault.
He trusted the machine shop, as experts in engine building, to supply him with the correct cam for the engine, just as he trusted them to do the right machine work and procure the other parts.
He delegated responsibility to a qualified entity and had a reasonable expectation that they would perform the task assigned to them using their expertise and experience.
He also, no doubt, paid them for their expertise and experience, either in the form of a mark-up on the price of the cam, or in the form of an overall service charge that he paid for the whole job. If they were paid to do a job (supply the correct cam), and did not do it, then they are obliged to make it right.

It's not like he gave the neighbor kid $200, sent him around the corner to buy a cam, and then installed it without looking at it. He trusted people who represented themselves as experts and was not delivered what had been promised.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Forgive me, I'm confused here. I'm assuming that the first assembly with the wrong cam was by the shop. A problem was discovered and it was found to have the wrong cam and you reassembled it with the correct one.

Can we start over with the complete sequence of events?

Sampson

X2. It is very hard for a novice to verify a cam. He relied on a shop with experience. I would expect them to step up and do the right thing!

joe_padavano

Look, if you had gone to a speed shop and ordered a cam based on you providing the information on the engine, and the speed shop gave you the wrong part, you would take it back and get the right one. You aren't the one who looked the part up, they did. If the catalog is wrong (or insufficiently detailed), that's between the shop and the manufacturer.

Should you check this during assembly? Yes, but it still isn't your fault that the shop gave you the wrong cam.

Kennybill

If you were a novice to Oldsmobiles, I would say the shop has some liability. Did you know about the 39º vs 45º Oldsmobile cams? When dealing with the 330/425 engines this subject is like having scissors around your child. If you knew about the degree differents then you share some blame for not checking. Try splitting the cost of cam/lifters/gaskets. Jmo Ken

1965F85_scholten

There was no assembly by the shop. I bought the cam from the shop that did machine work on my block and heads. They sold me the cam that was supposed to be for my 330. The builder advised me on what cam I should purchase for the 330.

I assembled the engine and I installed the cam. I took the Olds to a local shop because I was at wits end in getting the timing and idle right on the rebuilt motor. They took a look at it, dug around on what the CAM was (I gave them the cam card) and discovered it was the wrong cam. I am now working with the machine shop to figure out how to make this right.

MDchanic

No figuring. They screwed up (looked it up wrong, ordered it wrong, took the wrong one off the shelf - whatever), so now they have to fix it.

Having to do the job twice is more than enough "share" of the "solution" for you to do.

- Eric

oldcutlass

OK then, at minimum I would think they owe you the correct cam and lifter set.

Kennybill

Did you know about the 39ºvs45º degree Olds engines ? Last I heard Comp Cam were out of 45º cores. Ken

yankees

Not to be Debbie downer, but u won't see anything for free. Father and I ran into this situation years ago. Mechanic ordered trans and converter for us and sure enough the converter was diff than what we needed. We installed converter/trans fired it up and sure enough something is not right. Front pump teeth broken and said u installed it and broke due to your installation. It cost over 500 to repair and the mechanic wanted no part in paying since we installed it. He's out of biz thank goodness.

oldstata

This just happened to me sold me the wrong converter out my labor but he did go through trans to make sure nothing was in it I didn't brake pump thanks goodness

Did but new converter because he would not admit it tho

1965F85_scholten

I know about the 39 vs 45 now but did not know prior to this snafu! From what I'm learning so far it will need to be a custom grind!

MDchanic

That's a pretty negative attitude.

This is a slam dunk case for small claims court.
The OP, who had no special knowledge or expertise, engaged the machine shop, which did have knowledge and expertise, and which had connections to suppliers, to provide him with the correct cam for his engine.
The machine shop provided the wrong cam, and the OP installed it in good faith, then, with the help of a third party, discovered that the cam was wrong, and so the machine shop did not live up to its side of the agreement.
If the OP has receipts and some reference sources as to which parts are correct and which are incorrect, he will be awarded damages to include the value of the cam and lifters, and very likely the gaskets, too.

Of course, that's a PIA, and we would all hope that it doesn't have to come to that.

- Eric

RandyS

Hmm, I believe that your member name should now be "MDchanic Esquire" !!
Well put!

pogo69

Its a slam dunk alright...for the lawyer maybe

1965F85_scholten

Well the guy just doesn't get it. He talked to Comp Cams today and sure enough, its the wrong cam and there is really no way to make it work. After talking through it, he explained how he ordered the Cam. His book says 67 - 70 330 and that's what he ordered. At that point, I think he realized it really was his fault cause he was looking at a 67, not a 65.

He offered to refund me the cost of the cam IF I brought it back to him and there wasn't any damage to it. If there is, he'd give me half back.

I told him that's not good enough and he needs to make it right- had I gone in there and he looked up the part correctly he would have told me he can't get me a cam for a 65, or I needed to have one ground. I asked him to get me the right cam, set of lifters and gaskets. He's going to look around and get back to me- still no commitment or I'm sorry or anything. This is so not right. He's supposed to be the most reputable builder in the county.

oldcutlass

I would not think there would be any damage, tell him you want to return cam, lifters and be reimbursed for the price of gaskets.

oldstata

X2 I think his biggest problem here is he is wondering where to get the cam if he just refunds the cost and gasket cost you can have cutlasefi get you the proper cam and lifters

Octania

There were 39 deg 330 blocks. They were the 67's with #3 casting above the water pump. #1 and #2 casting 330 blocks are 45 deg.
=======================
I believe this is an error above.

My records indicate
1-381917 = BLOCK, engine block, ID = "1"; 1964 330
Note that Main ID comes before 6-digit for 1964: "1-381917" but w/o the dash of course.
All '917 blocks will be 45 degree cam bank angle

2-395558 = ubiquitous 1968-76 350;
Main ID is after 6-digit, next to oil pressure sender.
All are 39 degree cam bank angle

3-394417 = 1967 330
Note that Main ID comes after 6-digit for "394417 3".
The "3" block is usually? 39 degree cam bank angle



Original Poster- PLEASE after you get your proper cam- and some here such as cutlassefi can surely help, or folks like me that have one lying around... PLEASE degree it in or have someone do that for you. Time consuming and requires $100 in tools, but what peace of mind. If you approach the shop w/o attitude as suggested above and just "gee whiz what a pain, how about we [insert your offer here]..." it might be that easy. If not, THEN you can mention the L word.

The final assembler is the final inspector.

I have seen wrong size bearings installed. Crank put in w/o washing the grinding crud out of the oil passages. There's a lot of ways to ruin new parts!

Not that I myself have ever done anything like that [yeah, right!]

MDchanic

No lawyers in small claims court. That's the point.



x3. This is your best solution. And if he hesitates too much, say you'll take half the price of the gaskets, just to be done with it.

- Eric

coppercutlass

Take this lesson and learn from it. This is why I like to build my own stuff so I can learn even if it's at my expense. On my previous 350 build I needed shim gaskets to keep compression up for the cam I wanted to run. I called my local olds guy and asked if he had a set for sale. I went picked them up paid for them installed them and while I topped off fluids before initial start up it puked coolant every where. The head gaskets where for a 330 and would not work on my 350. 40 bucks and the ride lost. He did sell me a set of cast flat tops used in good shape for 100., So I had to pull the engine back out and take it apart have the rods pressed off and back onto the new pistons that cost 80 then re assemble the engine which cost 35 in gaskets . I didn't blame anyone I took it as a learning lesson and moved on with my build. If you aren't making mistakes then you are not learning.