Hey guys, Just like the title says its another thread on troubleshooting a car that will not start for me.

Details on the car are 72 Cutlass Supreme, 350 4 barrel with th350 trans. I have headers so I installed a powermaster mini starter a few years ago to help with hot starts. Things went good for a while and when I began to be busy with school and everything so I couldnt drive the car it seems like everything went down hill from there.

The setup on the car

right now is msd 6al, petronix coil and I believe a mallory unilite in the stock distributor. The reason I threw this stuff in was because I thought it would all help the car start. It stopped starting before I changed all this stuff. I realize that was not the smartest thing to do now but that was a year ago. I had a thread going on realoldspower that was not really helping me get anywhere and now I see the site has changed. I stubbled upon this site again and it looks like there are people here that are much more helpful. Also the car was original AC car but 3 or 4 years ago I decided to try and delete it because it was not working anyways. I probably should not have done this but I was a little younger and not very smart about some things. The car was running for a bit after I did this.

what the car is doing

The battery seems to drain. I need to track that down. At first I noticed when I had my battery full charged that all the lights were bright and everything else worked fine except the horns would not want to work. When I went to start the car it would either click, do nothing, or click than sound very weak trying to turn the starter extremely slowly. I since have went over to Fusic (down the road) and bought a new horn relay. The horns sound good and working properly like everything else now but what I am getting out of the starter is just a click click click click then extremely slow spinning, or what sounds like very slow spinning.

What I have done

Checked and rechecked the wiring for my ignition time and time again and to the best of my knowledge and all the information I can find it is correct. As stated previously I got a new horn relay. I also replaced both battery wires positive and negative.

What I need/background on me

I am very familiar with working on vehicles in most all aspects other than wiring. I have done an engine swap on a previous daily driver e36 bmw, all kinds of suspension work, clutches, etc the list goes on. I am not unfamiliar with wrenching, just unfamiliar with electrical things. What I would like is some information on what I should have where for wiring and what I dont need to have. Where to start looking for issues would be at grounds, but im not sure where they are all supposed to be. Details and pictures would be extremely helpful to me. My plan for the past couple years has been to get this car starting properly and easily. I have a 66 425 I picked up probably 5 years ago that I have been wanting to build and put in but no sense in doing anything with it until the car works right!

People say these cars are easy to work on, but in my experience that is not the case if you do not know what is what and where things aIfre supposed to be!!!


Thanks all for the time you spend reading this and any time put into helping me.

 

Well, first, I would suggest getting a copy of the Chassis Service Manual and the Assembly Manual, so that you can see what is what and where things are supposed to be.
Both are available for free on WildAboutCars, but I would recommend a paper CSM, as there is no substitue for having the manual in your hands.

You say you replaced the positive and negative battery cables. What with?

Did you clean all terminals well?

Is the ground strap from the back of the engine intact?

Is the negative battery cable bolted securely to the block?

Have you tried tripping the solenoid S terminal with a 12V jumper?

Have you tried a different starter motor?

Are you certain that your battery is good? Have you tried a different one?

Photos of your engine compartment would be very helpful to us in figuring out what's wrong.

Welcome to Classic Olds.

- Eric

 

The mini starters do spin slower than stock ones from what I remember...

 

How old is the battery? Are you sure it's still putting out the amps. Have you tried cranking it while being jumped by a running vehicle?

 

Multiple clicks are usualy caused by a low or bad battery, or bad connections. Make sure it is a good battery and check connections at battery, starter and block. Also check cables for corrosion. If this is all good, you may want to change starter or have it opened and looked at. Slow crank is also usually the battery condition connections cables and starter. Since you replaced the cables, make sure there is no paint or rust under them and check the battery condition.

 

Welcome. MD (Eric) can explain things much better then I.
The only thing I will add is: Do you have and can you use a voltmeter?
If so, give us volt readings at the battery with everything off and while trying to crank.
To check for a battery drain, remove battery terminal and connect a simple 12 volt test light between battery and cable. Make sure everything is off, doors closed etc. If lamp lights, you have a drain.
If you do not have a meter and test light, buy them. You will need them.

If you work on newer cars, you can learn the old ones.

 

If you have checked all the connections and wiring over and over then I will assume thats ok. What does that leave, a bad battery, or a corroded disc on the starter solenoid, bad starter motor...etc. By the way how is the ministarter wired?

 

We don't actually know what he replaced the battery cables with.

I ASSume nothing.

Pictures!

- Eric

 

thanks for the fast responses everyone! I will try and answer any and all questions the best I can


I did not try jumping the car because I believe I read somewhere in the msd manual to not do that with the 6al but I could be mistaken

I somewhat always was unsure of if the wiring was 100% correct for the starter because I seemed to get different answers each time I asked. I think there are 4 wires. pos battery, from the starter to the horn relay and the two smaller wires. I will double check


Thanks everyone. I will try and get more detailed information today.

 

What gauge is the wire? Some of those Brand X wires are pretty small.


You don't need a helper - that's the point.
You find the S terminal on the solenoid (small terminal to the driver's side of the solenoid with the heavy purple wire going to it), attach a jumper, and touch the jumper to the big positive terminal from the battery, or to the positive terminal on the battery itself, if you prefer.


And I hope to win the lottery.
This is an aftermarket, non-original, "high torque" starter, correct?
If it's Chinese crap, it could be totally shot.


That's what we're looking for. To see how horrible it looks, and what might be out of place, screwed up, wrong, etc.

We want pictures of the heavy wires from the battery to the engine, the horn relay, the starter - whatever you can get access to.

- Eric

 

belive it or not. I have not had any issue with autozone replacemet starters and headers. If your battery is drained and i mean drained you may have to toss it on a charger. over the winter my girlfriends k5 blazer sat in the garage with a busted rear end and i left the batt. connected. i took one week for the batt. to get to half charge then i finally put it on and it started. and i have not driven it in a month and it died again. Sometimes the simple things can be overlooked. If the battery is not in regular service it will loose "memory" batteries have a memory so when they are in normal use it see's normal charge cycles and non charge cycles. The battery on my girlfriends truck was fine for a bout two months then i didnt move it for a while and it died. the same happened to my batt. in my cutlass over the winter but it's back in normal cycle duty.

 

http://www.maliburacing.com/starter_solenoid.html
I like to have all my starter/battery connections on the fender.
Get rid of all the extra headaches like the ignition box.
Make sure you have a full 12 volts at the dizzy...not the connection from the starter for point type ignition...this is not 12 volts.
Once you have full battery voltage to the ignition system,you have fuel and engine diagnosis.
Smell fuel?
Carb black and ugly?
Old fuel?
Drain the tank and fill with some premium...new fuel has a shelf life of 6 months max these days.
Install plastic see through fuel filter in fuel line to monitor fuel amount and visual condition of the fuel.
If you still have problems run a compression check AND leak down test.

 

The wire is 4 gauge.


Ok, I just did this but it was with a low battery as we have seemed to determine. I just get the clicking. turns out it seems to not actually be spinning. I need to go get a battery this week and see what happens. In the meantime I have mine on the charger anyways I may try again tomorrow.

Yes, it is a Powermaster mini high torque starter. I will have to look if I still have my old stock starter or not. I think that one is still good, but not entirely sure. Putting that huge starter in is a majorrr pita with the headers.


I took photos but my computer is not reading my SD card right now and I have no idea why. I need to try it on a different computer.


For now, here is how I have things wired.

Starter
Battery positive to big post and a wire from the same post to the horn relay.
Small post has the purple wire, I couldnt really tell where that goes to I can try to investigate more.

MSD wired as per the installation manual page 18
distributor: red-red(ign/msd) brown-brown(ground) green-green than white
Heavy red to positive battery
heavy black to battery negative
orange to + on coil
black to - on coil


I will work on getting my pictures onto a computer so I can post them. card has never not read before. Also I will try with another battery or after charging mine for a while I guess.

 

i usually disconnect my battery anytime my car does not get driven. I use a stud and wing nut on side post batteries by taking the bolt out of the cable.

 

got my desktop to read my sd card. some photos here. Im not sure if they are any good or not. Things are kinda sitting around right now as I am still moving stuff and figuring out what I need/dont need and then I will mount things places. Just want to get it going first.

DSC_0040.jpg

DSC_0041.jpg

 

Well, everything sounds good so far. I think 4ga is a tiny bit small, but it shouldn't cause a problem like this.

As for the pictures, it looks like a rat's nest, but not bad. I would get rid of all those crimped connections and solder them when you get the chance, though.

From all you say, the battery is the number one thing I would swap out to see if it fixes it.
What's your battery voltage, sitting with the car off and cranking (or trying to crank)?



Sorry, but this is not accurate.

"Memory" applies to NiCd and Li-ion batteries, which prefer to be discharged than charged.
If you leave them fully charged for a long time, or if you never let them discharge, they will lose their capacity to hold a charge.
That is why you should allow your laptops and cell phones to fully discharge and then fully recharge whenever possible, rather than plugging them in when they say "Low Battery" or just leaving them plugged in. (I know that the manufacturers claim that Li batteries have "no memory," but that is BS - I have tested this myself with different identical pairs of laptops and cell phones [Motorola StarTac, iPhone3, iPhone4, iPhone5, iBook, and MacBook] and found charging patterns to make a huge difference in battery life and capacity]).

Car batteries are Lead-Acid (or Lead-Antimony, or similar), and are entirely different (there are a number of burglar alarm batteries, emergency lighting batteries, etc. that are of a paste Lead-Acid construction that this applies to as well).
Lead-Acid batteries like to be fully charged and hate to be discharged.
You can leave them on a charger for years, so long as you don't cook the water out of them with excessive voltage, and they wil be as good as new.
Their capacity is degraded by being discharged, and is worse with deeper discharges (leaving the headlights on until the battery's dead) and longer periods of discharge (leaving the car for a week with a dead battery before recharging it).
They do not develop "memory," but DO get screwed up if you let them die.
That's why the battery in a car that's driven every day can seem to last forever, while the battery in your motorcycle, or lawn tractor, or antique car keeps going bad, and it's why Battery Tender-type chargers are a money-saver in the long run.

- Eric

 

Ahhhh thanks for that eric. i raced rc cars for years and i always thought car batteries held a memory.

 

RC cars were probably NiCd's, which have a memory like an elephant.
They work best when thoroughly cycled every month using a special (and expensive) cycling charger.

- Eric

 

Yes i had the batteries down to a science i used nmhd when they where the bees knees now nmhd are like nicd and lipo's and all that new stuff is amazing with the power out put in a small package and the run times !!!!!!!!!!!!! Also with nicd and nmhd running them in series was always perfered over parallel i always ran em discharged them with a light set up made from car bulbs then fully charged them untill they hit trickle on the charger.

 

... Or using light bulbs, if you know what you're doing.

- Eric

 

My plan has been to solder the wires and neaten everything up once I know it starts up without an issue really. For now its a mess but I am still working on it.

Certainly trying new battery. After leaving the battery on the charger for a while it is right around 12 volts but after trying to start the car a couple times it will drop down to 6 or so. I havent been able to see what it is when trying to crank.

 

Your battery's dead.

Go get another one.

- Eric

 

Yeah, a couple things.
1) take the battery to the store they will (for free) test it and tell you that it's lame. If it's down to 6V after a couple cranks, that's dead. It matters only for warranty purposes how old it is- I had a Sears "die hard" peter out after ONE MONTH.

2) Do not confuse the STARTING SYSTEM with the IGNITION system. Get and peruse the Chassis Service Manual. The starting system is really simple. But, the job it does is crucial and it has to be beasty strong.

You can have fuel and spark and compression, ready to run, but if you cannot spin the engine and still have battery voltage for spark, no joy will be had. Folks with a manual trans used to sometimes push-start the vehicle, using the gears and road traction to spin the engine. With an AT of course you cannot do that. But, I digress.

Get your Starting System whipped into shape.

Battery (you will probably be done after correcting this)
Cables [probably OK in new, but, assume no such thing. Verify with voltage readings.]
Starter itself
GROUND PATH from starter all the way back to the battery (-) post.

Oh, and btw, you cannot possibly have headers on a Supreme.

[that's a joke, poking fun at the Urban Legend that no headers fit on Cutlass Supremes]

 

X2 it should be 12.6v - 13.2v after charged, 2.1v per cell.

 

Ok, Finally got back to messing with the car. New battery was purchased and it cranks great.

I am not getting power to the coil. Power is going to the msd box, but not coming out to the coil. I had a friend that works on old cars all day for work come by to check things out and its all hooked up according to the booklet. I get power everywhere but the coil. Any way to test the msd box?

 

If it were me, I would disconnect the msd box and use the stock setup until you can get the car running. Once it's running and starting correctly, I would then reinstall it.

 

Don't get me started on "That's why I tell people to just keep their points," and "If it works, don't fix it..."

- Eric

 

The wiring in the photo you posted above frankly looks like crap. Those blue 3M squeeze connectors should be outlawed - they are the worst electrical connectors in the world. Rip all that crap out and wire the car properly with solder joints and shrink tubing if you need to make a splice. Every one of those connections is a potential failure point.

I also agree with the others that you should eliminate anything new and go back to basics for starters. Once the car runs properly, then reinstall the new items one at a time. This is called the scientific method - change one thing at a time.

 

I understand don't fix what's broken thing, but the past few years I have been pushing the car around because most the time it would not start and if it would start it wouldn't start back up again after. I was going to need to replace things stock or not.

This is what I have now. Checked power everywhere and were getting 11.7-12 volts everywhere but the coil. Does not seem to come out of the msd box. I understand the wiring is not done properly yet but that is temporary until it runs, see everyone is telling me to rip it all out anyways.

I am being told to go back to stock by everyone here it seems, but I don't know how that is and what the setup is or what I need to get to do that. I didn't grow up working on these cars, Iam only 24 and have only dealt with and worked on newer cars.

 

So, it sounds like you had a problem with the starting system which caused no or slow cranking, and tried to fix this by installing an expensive aftermarket ignition system, which was totally unrelated to the problem you were having, found that the problem was still there, and have slowly been changing other things more or less randomly, you have finally gotten it to crank properly by replacing the battery, but now it won't fire, and you need to know how to troubleshoot the expensive aftermarket ignition that you bought but didn't need in the first place.

To answer your question, while you're trying to get this car working right, what you should have is power through the resistor wire to the original coil, and a wire from the other side of the coil to a set of points and a condenser inside the distributor.

Pull all that other crap out by the roots, and save it for later, in case you want to modify the engine once it's running well.

These cars are easy to work on, if they haven't been messed around with by people who think replacing perfectly good parts is a varsity sport, and knowing what is what, and where things are supposed to be, is easy, if the things that are supposed to be there are there in the first place.

You also need to check your charging system and prove that your battery is charging, and check to be sure that you don't have a current leak when the car is turned off (aftermarket audio equipment is always a good candidate to start with).

Get this simplified as much as possible, get it running well, and then you can mess with it.

- Eric

 

This what you have now:




This is what you should have after you remove the 6AL box if your using a Unilight like you stated up top. If your using a Pertronix you don't need the resistor:

 

Thanks, Eric, for finding that stuff - I really don't like digging for info on aftermarket stuff that may or may not be hooked up correctly, may or may not work, etc.

To put your picture in other words:

There are three wires coming from the distributor, Brown, Red, and Green.

• Brown goes to ground,
• Red goes to a full 12V hot wire (such as the IGN tap on the fuse block or the heavy pink wire coming from the ignition switch),
• Green goes to the Negative coil terminal.
• The positive coil terminal is connected as it normally would be, to the resistor wire and to the R terminal on the solenoid.

If these connections are made, the car should run off of the Mallory magnetic pickup inside the distributor, without having to reinstall points and condenser.

We have not proven that the Mallory unit is good yet, though, so if you still can't get a spark, you may need the points anyway.

This looks like about fifteen minutes of work, so hook it up and let us know if this does it.

- Eric

 

Like I said, if it's not a Mallory unit, then the resistor or resistor wire is not needed.

 

 

Hmmmm... So you added the MSD amplifier, but the Mallory unit was always there, including during the times when the car wouldn't start.

You have nothing to lose by disconnecting the MSD amp., but I would consider that if you still have trouble starting it after you do that, you may want to remove the Mallory pickup and reinstall points, as that could be the part that's not working right.

You should be able to beg or borrow a set of points and condenser from someone for experimental purposes, with no cash spent, since everyone has a set lying around that they replaced with something newer, or replaced with an electronic unit.

- Eric

 

I know it has been forever since I have been on here, I was busy wrapped up in other projects.


The car is running. Installed a new distributor and the car starts better than it ever has before. Got msd pro-billet with mechanical advance.

I need to set my timing to spec now as its just roughed in. What should the initial timing be for my set up? Anyone know what setup I should have for the spring advance?

I honestly need input on the timing marks, my car just has 5 points. (IIRC 5 is right) what ones mean what? I don't know what vacuum I have but plan to hook up a gage this afternoon. If that matters.

Sometimes when opening the throttle it coughs back up through the carb. Not sure if it's the carb or timing issue. Carb is a qjet that is hurting, wet and leaky. May pick an edelbrock with electric choke up today. Quickly opening the throttle makes it cough, smooth slow and it usually doesn't. Plan would be to set the timing and then swap carburetors.

 

You mean like this?

 

Guess I have to clean it even better! Haha that will help


Guessing I will have to mark my balancer. Digital ignition like I have would require more than 12° advanced correct?

 

" May pick an edelbrock with electric choke up today. Quickly opening the throttle makes it cough, smooth slow and it usually doesn't. Plan would be to set the timing and then swap carburetors."
Don't be a part swapper, get your timing set correctly, then see about troubleshooting the Qjet, don't waste money by just swapping it out for another carb.

 

I hear you. What should my initial timing be set at? Trying to figure that out.

Qjet was rebuilt 4 or 5 years ago but it seems to leak fuel.