RetroRanger

Looking for some thoughts on this.

Background; 72 350 cutlass all original except ebrock carb and HEI dizzy. I've had the car 3 years never any issues, motor ran fine odo says 41k.

Took a drive yesterday about 40miles or so after bumping up my initial timing to20* from 15*. Stopped once along the way car restarted no problem. Just down the street from my house at idle speed the car stalled w a metallic "tink", not a clunk or a thunk.

Fuel gets to carb as shown by acc pump streams when working the linkage, spark plugs spark, the engine turns over but sounds a little different more of high torque electric motor sound than is typical.

When I rotate the engine so the 0* mark on the damper lines up w the 0* on the timing tab the rotor points closer to the oil pressure fitting on the block than the #1 cylinder. If the #1 cyl is at 10:30 to 10:45 the rotor points to 11:30 w 12 being the thermo housing on the block. When rotating the engine the damper moves 18-20* or about an inch on the diameter of the damper before the rotor will move.

So to sum it up original engine, gets fuel, and spark no start died while running, when trying to start engine turns over and once or twice in 20 attempts it almost caught like it was gonna start but did not.

I'm thinking it jumped time but idk if the rotor play and positioning support that...any others ideas welcome

coppercutlass

Did by any chance the dist. Move. I have had the hold down go loose. Losen it up and take some timing out and see if that helps.

redoldsman

Sounds like the old timing chain has crapped out on you.

RetroRanger

Doesnt seem like the dist moved I tightened it down after adjusting it, was tight after the stall, and I backed it off already hoping that it might do something....made no change !

garyauks

You should listen to your buddy and just put in the 455 already....

MDchanic

I agree - classic timing chain - I've had it happen to me on an Olds, and it did the exact same thing.

Since your car is a '72 it should have 8.5:1 compression and the likelihood that pistons have hit valves (as they did on my HC 350) should be about zero.

Get a good-quality timing set and borrow a harmonic balance puller, and maybe get a new water pump (MAW...),and you should be all set.
Oh, and consider getting all those nylon teeth out of your oil pan if you can.

- Eric

kitfoxdave

Oh and while you have all that apart, I am sure you might find a few parts that need to be made pretty... (At least cleaned and painted... New 4 core radiator...) AHHHHH! the evil MAW's!

RetroRanger

OK guys thanks for all of the replies. Ill go after the t chain, and post back. As my buddy Gary alluded to I have a 455 to put in but Im still collecting a few parts and some other stuff for it so I would like the 350 to get me thru the summer and during the winter put the 455 in...

RetroRanger

haha dave Im saving the major cleanup for the BB install should be easier w no engine in the way...last winter we redid the front suspension and frame so everything right up to the control arm mounts on the frame was cleaned and PORd....so Im halfway there already

kitfoxdave

Trust me when I say.... OH NO YOU ARE NOT! ;-) I started taking mine apart last August... I MIGHT be able to start the engine soon!

Best of luck with your swap!

Greg Rogers

Eric, you're scaring me...I'm quite sure my chain is bad on my 70 Vista but I never saw a stock Olds hit valves after a chain failure. Though I used to work on the middle 70's on up. Are you saying the 70 with 10.25 comp could hit if timing jumps??

MDchanic

I don't know whether it could hit, but in my case, it did hit.

It was a '70 Cutlass with a completely stock 350 / 4bbl (10.25:1), with 106,000 miles on it, I had just come back from a 3 hour drive, pulled into a parking space, was about to switch it off, thought, "I'd better get it a little straighter in the space," reached for the gearshift lever, and, before I could put in reverse, it went "Clunk!" and stopped running.
I was a kid in college, at the end of the year, with no place to stay, so I couldn't do much to it. I borrowed a puller, pulled the timing cover, found the chain had slipped, took a bus to the auto parts store, bought a timing set, installed it, reassembled, and it still wouldn't run.
Pulled the heads and four valves were bent.
Didn't have the wherewithal to bring the heads to a machine shop and do all the work, so I left it.

So, yes, regardless of whether the pistons were supposed to hit the valves, they did.

- Eric

Greg Rogers

Wow, I guess I'll change mine sooner than I expected, Thanks.

RetroRanger

nah greg im sure youll be fine...take a look at mine barely even has any slack LOL

Greg Rogers

Wow... I'll bet it'll run better when done!

MDchanic

Bah. Just a little "roomy," that's all.

I'm thinking that gear might have reached its last roundup.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Geez I'd a thought at least a few more days out of that one.

Sampson

Pretty sure you could slip the chain back over the gear and get another 10-15 miles out of it

RetroRanger

Haha since you guys like the tchain/ gears so much I'll post it up for sale when finished for the concours type nothing fits like original GM parts

Funny part of the story when the car died, I was just a couple doors down from my house...I towed it home w my truck

1970supremevert

are all the plastic teeth missing from the cam gear ??

MDchanic

Yes, you can see from the picture that they're gone.

- Eric

1970supremevert

hate to say... it but it looks like a oil pan removal is in order to remove all plastic pieces, the oil pump will likley have plastic inside

MDchanic

Well, not inside the pump, but the pickup will probably have 'em packed in before the screen.

- Eric

RetroRanger

Mmm I figured as much I recall seeing a pic of someone's pick up screen covered w plastic.

I blame Dave and his MAW chant! Dang it well I guess it's a good time to replace those 40 yo motor mounts too.

RetroRanger

well heres a couple pics of the progress I removed the timing chain



took off the oil pan and saw there was only a couple peices of plastic on the pump pick up




that is after my buddy removed all this other shizzle from the shrouded part of the pump pick up





so I was pretty happy we ended up pulling the motor after finding all that in the pick up.

In addition the motor mounts were so compressed we had to lift the engine just to get to the bolts. The drivers side mount was broken in two and the pass side exhaust manifold occasionally hit the engine cradle from the compressed mount.

Now were just gonna clean up the engine, repaint, new cloyes timing set, new delco water pump, new mtr mounts, a new lower rad hose, and a couple other small things and we'll be good to go

So if you have an original timing chain (ahem greg ) you know what you have to do

RetroRanger

More goodness, the engine was so covered with oil, grease, grime that in some places it was thick enough to hide fasteners so that the fastener was completely covered and smoothed over with goo, it was ~3/8" or so thick in some spots.

One of the reasons for this may have been my dipstick tube. IDK how this would have happened but there is a ~1/2" hole in the side of it. To be fair at some time in the past someone tried to slow the leakage with a glob of silicon. I thought the silicon was just another grease blob till i scraped it off and saw the hole

this engine musta been a leaker since day 1 which helped preserve it w very little rust or pitting. There is a lot of orgiinal gold paint under the grease.

OLD SKL 69

Wow, good thing you pulled the engine. Sounds like you're going to have it looking and running great when you get done. At least, it should give you many miles of trouble free driving until you get the 455 ready.

RetroRanger

I know right...I wasn't to keen on pulling the engine, but I'm very happy I did. With the plastic in the pump the motor mounts and now the oil dipstick stuff, I'm feeling better about all the time.

Course now it's twice as much work besides just replacing the stuff that needs it, cleaning everything up, then painting stuff I expect to be down for about a month....but when it's all back together it should be pretty sweet....

RetroRanger

I picked up the spectre #5727 oil dipstick for olds 350 and 455s. I was hoping to just use the tube w my old dipstick, but the OEM unit has a flare where the dipstick fits in and the spectre unit does not. OK ill just use the spectre unit but if you buy one of these note the difference in fill and add marks as compared to the OEM unit . In addition the dipstick itself is longer by ~1" and the tube itself is longer by ~2.5". not deal breakers but something to be aware of.

In the pic the 2 units are aligned at the block flare I just added the arrows to make it easier to see the add fill lines. and note they are resting on my new cloyes (now w no plastic timing chain)

Olds442redberet

It'll be night and difference. I recently had timing issues as well.

oldcutlass

Oh my, MAW's. It's just never simple...

RetroRanger

I expect to notice some difference in performance, smells and sound my engine was covered w oil residues so it smelled like burning oil and i found a few exhaust leaks (or potential leaks)two exhaust manifold bolts were loose and the tabs were not bent enough to stop them from turning I tightened those and rebent the tabs

haha it was simple till I posted my woes here.....then the MAWs started (i see you laughing Dave)

I changed the timing cover seal, the old one just split into many peices as I was pressing it out Icouldnt tell if it was leaking oil from there due to the amount of residue everywhere but it feels good to know there is a new seal there doing its job!!!



A little W-31 love here, my car has a dual exhaust but the cross over pipe block off plate work left a little to be desired, it wasnt pretty (not a real concern for me) and the brazing only went about 3/4 of the way around the pipe you can see in the pic where it was leaking exhaust. for $32 to my door the fine folks at inline tube hooked me up w a W-31 style crossover block off...I saw this part as high as $50 plus ship so it pays to shop around as my mama (and the capt and tenille) always said

kitfoxdave

I am just saying the shiny stainless brake lines would sure like nice on that car! Your great grandson might appreciate that extra effort in the future! ;-)

RetroRanger

thanks Dave im not gonna take the chance that he *might* appreciate it ....besides I wanna drive the car again this summer

while I was futzing around hunting down pipe plugs.... my oil fill cap had a nice 40+year old "patina" on it. First thought hey clearcoat and save the patina like those guys on TV did w that old Olds ....second thought nah I didnt like it on their car and wont like it on mine either !!!

So i hit the cap w a wire wheel to clean it up and some metal polish to make it purty then I CCd it...I dont have a before pic but heres the after shot Im happy w how it turned out

Charlie Jones

The word "patina" is a line of crap. It's a cop out for a lack of perfection.
I see it all over e-bay and other car for sale websights.
It's a line of BS that attempts to put a positive "spin" on something negative.
The term "patina", I believe, was borrowed from the "artsy fartsy" crowd to describe deterioration and damage to artifacts over time. IMHO it has no place in the auto restoration / collection world.
You did the right thing with the oil filler cap.

RetroRanger

LOL thanks Charlie good description of patina as used in a for sale ad...unfortuntely the rest of the car has a "patina" to it as well...thats alright its a driver....

I found an old engine pic that showed the filler cap "before", its a little grainy but gives you an idea of what i started with

RetroRanger

wish me (good) luck if all goes well tonites the night, we just have to button up a few things and then Ill try to start it up !!! Im pretty pumped we got the engine in the car last week, I had to recitify a few things like missing PS bracket spacers, I bagged and tagged everything taking it apart, but when I went to put on the PS bracket i could tell something was missing CO search showed spacers and I had none. I made some up and went to install the PS bracket and i could tell at some time in the past the PS bracket was installed w no spacers as it was bent at the mounting hole. Got that squared away and swapped the Alt to the pass side as well.

I stepped out for a break last weekend and I turn off the light to keep the bugs from being attracted into the garage, when I came back in I saw the work light was still on under the car, it looked pretty cool (hey it was late, I was getting loopy) and I like a little photography challenge so i snapped this pic IIRC it was like a 4.5 sec exposure F2.8

oldcutlass

Well done.

RetroRanger

Well it runs !!!

Didn't start at first, so we checked for spark, had it, so we turned the dist 180* and it fired right up.

Now I gotta sort out a couple details, I swapped to an e Brock manifold now my 4" air filter is too tall so I gotta get a 2" ...got a couple other little things and I should be taking it out for a drive today !!!

Thanks to all of CO I pulled one engine once this was my second, the first I just brought to a rebuilder. I got a lot of reference from prior threads on here on little things

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Wow, you're doing an awesome job.

I had this SAME timing chain issue, fixed it. My car starts rain, shine, or minus 10 degrees.

I REALLY want to add dual exhaust to my setup. I was thinking of buying the kit from ILT and doing it over the winter.