1968CutlassSupreme

Hello All!

Pardon the slight frustration, which is brought out by a lack of experience and people around to ask...will someone please explain to me why machining an otherwise solid block is so expensive? I can buy a crate 350 with about 400hp for about $3000 and people are saying that just machining my old 68 block and #5 heads for larger valves will cost more than that. Why is that, and is that always the case?

I don't have > 3k to spend only on the block and heads which seems to be an "all in one chunk" process. I am looking to get 400 hp out of this engine which is supposed to have come from the factory with about 300 hp. Why is it so expensive to get the last 100 hp?

oldstata

I don't think the machine work is the pricy part olds parts seem to be a bit expensive. I am building a 455 and the short block machine work seems to be around 1k parts about 1500. Now I am unsure the cost on head work to put bigger valves in but a basic rebuild with light port/Polish is 800 so it's been advised to go after market heads witch pro comps are 1k and members here have good things to say about them and eddies run about 2k

I am not sure what crate motor your looking at for 3k but I would say its most likely low end parts

oldcutlass

Don't shoot the messengers here, people are giving you good numbers for your goal and budget. Why not call around to machine shops in your area and tell them your goal and see what they say. Each region of the country has different pricing for what your trying to do.


Your not building a Chevy crate engine, the princing is different. I think as the others that machining and parts is going to run you $3-4k for your block and heads.

olds 307 and 403

I was quoted $500 for machining my 403 block plus balancing. $200 to overbore, $150 to clean up mill the deck and $150 to align hone the mains. My pistons are a lot lighter and I am using a 330 stroker crank, hopefully won't be too bad. We usually pay more up here but some guys have quoted similar prices in the USA.

boese1978

My 68 350
block-
Bored and honed to 4.155 $200.00
Hot tanked and checked for cracks etc $150.00
Line Bore $85.00
Cam bearing install $40.00
Decked to 9.305 $40.00

Crank-
Indexed, balanced, offset ( stroked) ground, rods milled -.014 on the wide sides, pistons onto rods- $700.00

As you can see machine shop work alone for the short block is over $1200.00 and that does not include the pistons, new rods, rings or bearings let alone the heads and associated work on them. It adds up fast!

1968CutlassSupreme

oldcutlass, I am not shooting the messengers, I am just looking for more detail as to why things are as they are. Sometimes people like to speak in generalities to the point that it gets foggy for newbies like me. Then you'll have others say things like "buy a crate motor" (not necessarily people from here) without pointing out that the cost is cheaper because the parts are cheaper. Then there's the proper understanding of "cheaper;" is it cheaper in quality, thus cheaper in price or just cheaper in price because of availability? Frustration is a natural emotion that comes when a lack of understanding persists in the face of the knowledge presented. I am just trying to learn.

Ultimately I don't care if it ends up costing $4000 for the rebuild, I want to be able to work toward that - and not have to save $4000 and then do it all at once. I'd like to understand the goal and start buying pieces toward that goal, I don't care if I have to buy a set of bearings, then another set, then the pistons, then the oil pan, then the...etc as long as I can start. If I have to wait until I have all the money at once it will never get done because life always gets in the way of these kinds of projects. If I can buy a piece at a time then when life comes along, they can coexist.

I'll stop rambling now. I hope you all see my reply to 67 Cutlass Freak - you may get a little more insight into where I am coming from.

Thanks everyone.

Octania

Economy of scale comes into play here too
The car makers, and to an extent the crate motor rebuilders, have a line all set up to run Chevy motors. The first one costs a bundle, the 10,000th one, not so much. Changing all the tooling and settings to another brand, and getting it right, takes time, and time is money.

It's almost to the point anymore that nothing is worth fixing unless you have a sentimental attachment to it, or just like old stuff. A newer better one is cheaper.

oldcutlass

If you would quit opening a bunch of threads, it would be easier to follow your questions and answers. No one here would ever suggest a crate engine for your car.


Keeping an Olds with an Olds engine is purely a personal choice. The purists are going to have one opinion and then some of us have another. No one is right, however the choice is yours. It will be much more expensive to put a Chevrolet engine in your Olds because your not considering the complete picture.


You will need all the accessory brackets for a Chev crate engine, you will need a Chev compatible transmission, torque convertor and starter, perform some wiring changes, new frame brackets and engine mounts and whatever other misc items to convert. Depending on transmission possibly another driveshaft and yoke. So as you can see it's not a simple swap unless you have all the parts already.


With that said, it's much simpler and less expensive to stick with your current engine in the long run.
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1968CutlassSupreme

oldcutlass, thank you for your perspective. The reason I open these as separate threads is to keep them organized, believe it or not. I figure those who see them can answer if they want or ignore them if they choose, but one topic per thread is easier to keep organized so I can keep everything related to headers or fuel intake or rear ends or machine work or whatever. If I included all of that in one thread I'd be so confused by all the people who answer just part of the post that it would just be more frustrating. That's just me. Not everyone thinks the same, as you know.

It seems you may be annoyed. I apologize. It there was a chat room or some real time interaction this may be easier.

oldcutlass

I'm not annoyed at all and we don't mind answering your questions. You have asked some very good ones, it shows that you are making an educated decision in this. Most of us have been in the same position as you.


I know the cost differences first hand from practical experience.

jag1886

You will spend $4000 on a good rebuild? A lot of people have a different opinion as to what a good rebuild is.
That crate engine for $3000 is not an olds engine and if it is it won't make 400HP for very long.
I think a good rebuild includes boring cylinders, align bore the block, deck the block, naturally you have to pay for a boil out and inspecting of the block, install new freeze plugs and cam bearings, you almost always have to turn the crank and rebuild the rods, don't forget new rod bolts, then there is balancing to match the new pistons, as far as heads you naturally need a good performance valve job you probably will need a few new valves if not all new valves, you need to replace all the guides normally, a lot of people install harder exhaust seats to deal with unload gas or all stainless valves, you have to have the heads cc'ed after the valve job to see what you have and then mill the heads to get what you want for a final compression ratio, and that's the minimum on the heads, then you can have pocket porting done and gasket matching of the intake, if you do to much milling of the heads you may also have to have the intake milled, I think this is the minimum on a good engine build then add all the parts and it adds up real fast and I'm sure I forgot a 1/2 dozen things.
I spent $4200 on my 350 and didn't get as many good parts as I would have liked to of had.

Fun71

Quit thinking about it like that. You are building a 400 HP engine from scratch, not adding 100 HP to an existing 300 HP engine. If that's all you were doing, a few hundred dollars for a 100HP nitrous setup is all you would need.

1968CutlassSupreme

Fun71, thanks. I guess I've been looking at it wrong. That's why I am asking so many questions. Since I am not experienced, and I will only be assisting in the rebuild, and I'm a visual learner, I guess I need a lot of information ahead of time.

I do have a few more questions regarding this topic. I apologize ahead of time if some of this is repetitive, I just don't understand it yet...

I am just trying to research in preparation for the machine work on the block and the head what is needed for the machine shop to know to do the job right. I have #5 heads with all stock stuff. The spec sheet said they were 65cc heads with the smaller valves (I forget the actual size). My (multi-part) question is this:

Since I am interested in going with the W31 valve train, what information do they (the machine shop) need in order to machine the head properly? Do I need specific valve springs, push rods, lifters, etc? and If so, does that mean I have to have the cam ahead of time? Do they need to match the heads to the block? If so, does that mean I need to give them specific block machining specs information as well? If so, where can I get this information? Should head and block machining be done all at once? Does the machine shop tell you what you need (in terms of internal parts like the crank, rods or pistons) or can I buy a recommended set of high compression pistons and connecting rods (if needed), for example, for the assembly afterwards? Or, if the connecting rods are good, will they work with new pistons? Or does the machine shop only get the bare block and heads to do its work and never see any of the internal parts and all of these questions are irrelevant?

I know this is a lot but I just can't picture the process in my head in order to help those who are going to be helping me build this engine.

pogo69

the cost of running a machine shop especially the skyrocketing cost of chemicals/disposal ...for one

oldsonharmont

My 455 is currently in the machine shop and here's what we're doing:

Thermal clean the block and heads and check for cracks.

Bores, pistons and crank all look good, so just hone the bores, clean the crank and polish the journals. Lap or grind the valves as needed.

New bearings, freeze plugs and gaskets. A new timing set and probably ARP head bolts.

My goals are a stock rebuild for reliable cruising, no HP increase.

There's other plans for the car including fresh paint, upholstery and a new convertible top.

I have a lot to do and only so much money to work with.

Happy cruising and good luck with yours.

steverw

Talk to some other guys in your area, maybe someone in car clubs, or performance shops. Ask around who does the best machine work, you may get different opinions. Then go to all machine shops that are recomended and talk to them, tell them what you have and what you want. Maybe someone here knows a good machine shop in your area. My engine was 2400. to clean, bore, deck the block and heads, new pistons, bearings, rings, freeze plugs, performance valve job, gasget set, cam bearings installed. They also vatted sheet metal parts, as in valve covers, oil pan. Also resized the rods, and balanced the rotating assembly. I forgot it also included a new high volume oil pump. They are in Houston,Tx. recomended to me by another member here. Of course theres always other components you may need, like water pump, new sending units (maybe, maybe not) New radaitor and heater hoses, new vacum lines, motor mounts, etc.
First they need your motor to check it out, it may not need boring. Your heads may or may not need new valve guides. They will just need to get it cleaned so they can check it for NEEDED work then go from there for extra work you want to get it where you want it performance wise. I would say definately balance it, its one of the cheaper more beneficial upgrades you can do.
Steve

jag1886

Since I am interested in going with the W31 valve train, what information do they (the machine shop) need in order to machine the head properly? Do I need specific valve springs, push rods, lifters, etc? and If so, does that mean I have to have the cam ahead of time? Do they need to match the heads to the block? If so, does that mean I need to give them specific block machining specs information as well? If so, where can I get this information? Should head and block machining be done all at once? Does the machine shop tell you what you need (in terms of internal parts like the crank, rods or pistons) or can I buy a recommended set of high compression pistons and connecting rods (if needed), for example, for the assembly afterwards? Or, if the connecting rods are good, will they work with new pistons? Or does the machine shop only get the bare block and heads to do its work and never see any of the internal parts and all of these questions are irrelevant?

You need to read what I posted you obviously didn't. A person in your situation should be talking all this over with a machine shop, they are going to have all the answers for you. You need to get that 400-450HP figure out of your head and decide what you realistically want the car to do, what ever the engine costs you can depend on the transmission costing at least half what the engine costs to build and you have to have a REAL good rear end plus all the suspension has to up to the task of handling that much extra power (at least $10,000).
The old W31 cam is a dinosaur, it's the way they used to build cams back in the 60's and there are tons of better cams out there, a machine shop would recommend a cam that is going to work in the RPM ranges that will match your driving needs, remember that you are only probably going to beating on the car 1% of the time and the rest of the time it has to drive and act somewhat like a normal car or it can be a real PITA to deal with all the time (ask me how I know).

I have been down this road many times with different car, I have made every mistake that can be made (sometimes more than once). I just know that going for a HP# instead of what you want the car to do in real life is going to add up to a headache that costs a lot of money and you will probably get sick of it before up get what you want.
Once you decide what you want the car to do then talk to a HP machinist to make it happen.
Once again I'm not trying to yank your chain I just don't like seeing people make the same mistakes I have made over the years.