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I was hoping the 307 could be put back together with only a valve job. While cleaning the cylinders there were two with pitting in them. I called my machinist and he is ready for the block anytime I can get it there. We had an ice storm come through yesterday so it will be awhile before I can get it to him. We are hoping that 30 thousands will clean them up.
I looked on-line for rebuild kits. I found a company named Green Bay Parts World. The cost is $470 and it appears it includes a new cam and lifters. It comes with Victor gaskets but for $14 I can get the Fel Pro gasket set. $9 for brass freeze plugs. I have the 1984 Chassis Service Manual and it appears to have pretty good instructions.
I had taken the heads to him a few weeks ago for him to clean them up a little, remove the valves and give them back to me for some porting work. I had ported one other set of Studebaker heads and had the carbide burrs. There was a U-Tube showing a guy porting a 307 head so I used it as a guide. I am not going to be able to come close to matching his work but I think what I am doing will help the heads. I have read on this forum that doing some porting work on Oldsmobile heads return pretty good improvements.
I will keep you guys updated on the rebuild and may have some questions in the future. The machinist cautioned me to be sure to keep the main bearing caps in the order they are in now. I have a metal stamping kit and plan to number them 1 to 4. I have done a little research on the cast rings and the Moly rings. I think for just cruising down the highway the cast iron should work pretty well. For $16 I can upgrade to Moly rings. I would appreciate a little feedback on which type you would recommend. The Studebaker 259 CI V8 has solid lifters so I think the break-in for the 307 will be similar.
I may not be able to explain it very well but it is a personal thing to me. The previous owner owned the car for 53 years. During that period of time he put the 1984 Oldsmobile 98 drive train in to replace the Studebaker drive train. His daughter is my eye doctor. When he passed away his widow (her mother) wanted to give the car to me. I have been keeping the family abreast of the progress of the car. I desire to keep the drive train that he had installed the same as what it was. If it were not for this desire, my first choice would have been to put a Studebaker V8 back in it. I have a Saginaw power steering unit that will not work with the Oldsmobile engine. It may sound corny but I want to honor the gentleman's work on the car and keep the same running gear. I have spent days reading almost all the posts in the small block thread and the universal opinion is to replace the 307 with other, more powerful Oldsmobile engines and if not for the reason I have put forth here, I would be doing that. Thank you for your suggestion and it is logically the right one. One of my biggest desires is to drive the finished car to the dental office and show it to his daughter. At 73, I hope to beat life's ticking clock as well as keep good enough health to finish it.
Charlie D.
What you are fighting against is not just head flow. You can ad Olds 350 1.87"/1.56" valves, they will help. Also make sure they properly set the valve stem height or your factory non adjustable valve train will have issues. First let me say, like the Olds 350, the 307 was very durable from the factory, I got over 450,000 km out of one. The 307 is around 8 to 1 compression with a mild cam and the small bore also penalizes it. Can it make triple the stock power? Yes, with a lot of work and money, it has been done, by a member here. Make sure your machinist 0 decks the block and mill the heads to get 9 to 1 compression. Check the replacement piston dish to calculate your compression as well. For a cam, even the generic 204/214 cam is a gain from the less than 200 duration stock cam. If it is the 2004R trans, which it should be for a 84, your D9 converter flashes around 1900 rpm, not terrible but you might want a few hundred more. What rear gear ratio is in the car?
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Feb 25, 2022 at 04:56 AM.
JMO, for the paltry $16 more go with the Moly rings. All things being equal, what do you plan to do with the car after the engine is done? Are you going to drive it a lot, or just a weekender cruiser or....??
Moly is resistant to scuffing, as is chrome rings, but the moly rings are somewhat porous and will hold oil better than the others reducing friction. Unless I've missed something lately, just the top ring is coated with Moly anyway. 2nd ring actually does a lot more on oil control.
And obviously the only real advantage to cast iron rings is the cost reduction. Cast will work, but if you plan on handing down the car to later generations, someone down the line may be re-ringing it before they need to. If you're using high load situations like going racing a lot, maybe consider chrome. The question is are the cast rings you priced actually cast iron, or are they ductile iron or steel?
I'm guessing you're not going to be in a high-load situation for your 307, so, IMHO, if you're rebuilding to mostly stock performance, the nod would go to moly rings.
Thank you guys so much for your responses. Concerning the power gains; I don't think any of my vehicles have seen much over 80mph in the last 20 years. I emailed the Green Bay company and they informed me that the rebuild kit's price has gone up to $790. They said their web site had not been updated for quite awhile. I found on-line a rebuilt short block for $1,200 but it did not have a new cam and lifters. I had to have my Studebaker's cam and lifters reground and with shipping and all it was pretty pricey. The Moly rings sound like the way I need to go. The machinist will be milling the heads. It appears from using my dial calipers the pistons are about 25 thousandths below the block? Is there an approximate amount that should be milled from the heads?
Thank you again,
Charlie D.
Problem is, aftermarket replacement pistons are short on pin height, they could end up double factory amount below the deck at TDC. Plus the Felpro replacement head gasket will be around .042" compressed thickness. I just measured my 307 Felpro head gaskets, they are around a 3.945" gasket bore. You will need to CC your heads, especially with the chamber polishing, lowers compression somewhat. The Melling MTO-1 or similar 204/214 .448/.472 on a 112 LSA cam won't cost much more than a stock replacement. The stock Edelbrock Performer valve springs with new non rotator retainers also aren't expensive. Basic replacement Olds 350 valves aren't expensive and 1.87"/1.56" are a nice gain over the factory 1.75"/1.50" stock valves. Either way a proper rebuild isn't cheap. Here is a good calculator. https://uempistons.com/p-27-compress...tio-calculator
--Charlie, why did you take apart engine? Was it a oil burning problem? Did you find the problem in the heads, which is why you decided to do a valve job? You can be headed for a huge job in a complete engine rebuild... I don't know the reasons, but if you are just looking at the "pitting" on the cylinder wall, what if you had never taken the engine apart and were happy with the performance, never knowing about the pitting. I dunno but I believe in if it ain't broke, don't dive in and escalate... Sounds like your expectations for a nice smooth low performance low revving engine for your Stude wouldn't require everything to be absolutely perfect the way a 8000 RPM race engine would require. Good luck with whatever you choose...
--Reminds me of many years ago ( maybe 87 or so) I had a 74 Omega that I bought that was a low mileage " old lady car" that was extremely rusted. I was going to sell the 350 Olds engine and put a ad in the local paper. A guy came and bought the whole car- He wanted the whole drivetrain and front cradle out of the Omega (same as a Nova) to put in his 53 or so Studebaker. Years later at a car show I saw the Stude with the 350 Olds in it and asked the owner if it was the same car and it was, he remembered coming to my house and buying the Omega. It was really nice.
The engine had not been started for years. I squirted motor oil into the cylinders and let it sit for a couple of days. I was happy when it turned over by hand. I looked at each piston as it came up to TDC. The #8 cylinder had rust on top of it. I ran a magnet into the cylinder and picked up some rust so I knew that at least one cylinder had rust in it.
After purchasing a new starter I primed the carburetor and the engine fired up for a couple of seconds. The fuel pump was not pumping fuel so a new one was purchased. I primed it again and it started for a few seconds and the fuel pump pumped fuel up through clear tubing and as soon as it hit the carburetor fuel started flowing out of the top of it. A rebuild kit was purchased and the carburetor was rebuilt.
An oil pressure gage was installed and the engine was fired up again. Since it did not have coolant in it I only let it run for a minute or so. The garage was full of oily smoke and with only the exhaust manifolds installed it was noisy. The gage showed 60psi. I knew the engine would run so I then installed a battery in the trunk and proceeded with project. How well the engine would run could not be determined with only a couple of minutes of run time.
I am also blessed with a machine shop that is very reasonable on the prices. I took a picture of a spreadsheet showing what the costs were when my Studebaker engine was there 10 years ago. I think the valve job has gone up to $100 and I am sure the other items have gone up also but I am not going to get gouged by them.
I have experienced badly rusted cylinders. I have attached a pictured of the #8 cylinder on my 1955 Studebaker. It had to be sleeved as well as one of the other ones.
Good Lord is that cheap. The positive seals for Olds require the guides to be machined at the top but it is a nice upgrade. I have two sets of heads like that. That cylinder looks nasty. The Studebaker and Packard V8's were interesting. A local guy has a few and restores them, talked to Bob many times about them. The Studebaker V8 is limited in size to 5L but strong as hell and the Packard could of went 500+ ci down the road with already good flowing factory heads. I like that the oil pump fix to replace the troublesome vacuum oil pump on the Packard V8, is our Olds V8 oil pump adapted to replace it. If your machine shop does good work for that price, count yourself very lucky. The machine work is a big part why Olds V8 builds cost so much. My bill was $1500 plus balancing up here. Good luck, the Olds 307 is very reliable for a cruising down the road car.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Feb 27, 2022 at 05:15 AM.
On the Studebaker Engine the valves had been turned for the positive seals but the machinist only used them on the intake valves. He felt it best to use the umbrella valves on the exhaust valves. I have done some research on the cams available and agree with you that a little bump up in duration and lift which comes with the MTO-1 Melling cam would be good. Thank you for the suggestion.
Charlie D.
As long as they used OLDSMOBILE umbrella seals. When I had my last Olds 350 built rock stock, I was working long hours and didn't have time to do it. I had the local guy (Chevy guy- he don't know any better) re-do my long block and unbeknownst to me, he put Chevy umbrella seals in it. I broke it in, then took it on a long trip. Everything was fine until it was time to go home. On the way back, I was puffing smoke like a chimney on startup, and took 3 quarts of oil to get home. Pulled the valve covers off and found the problem. Every single umbrella seal was busted. Did a heads-on replacement of all the valve seals with OLDSMOBILE umbrellas and all has been good with the world ever since.
I got the second head ported and polished yesterday. I am glad I decided to do this as there was quite a bit of slag in the ports. Last November I ordered a closeout Fel Pro gasket set from Rock Auto for a valve job. I was pleasantly surprised when I opened it this evening. It has the rubber valve cover gaskets. It had the umbrella seals and the thickness of the head gasket is .050.
I took the heads to my machinist who took a look at them and pointed out that I had not taken care of what he called a short turn radius in the intake port. He had me feel a bump that he said needed to be knocked down some more. He said he would take care of it before he did the valve job.
I removed the lifters and cam this evening. One of the lifters was dinged up pretty bad on the bottom. The cam did not look very good to me so I am glad I am going with a new cam and lifters.
Those Felpro head gaskets measure around .049'-.050" uncompressed. Mine measure the same as well as my 350 Felpro head gaskets. They measure .042" COMPRESSED, Cutlassefi mentioned that number. I measured my used set, they measured that same .042". Just helpful for actual compression ratio numbers. Yes, I have used those valve seals on stock heads, they fit like stock.
Green Bay company and they informed me that the rebuild kit's price has gone up to $790.
Charlie D.
Are you sure that isnt the price for an 85 ? 85 went to a roller cam and lifters which is a lot more expensive. I will check the price on a kit with all name brand parts in the morning.
Did you ask your machine shop to price a kit for you ?
Bill, I have copied and pasted part of the email from The Green Bay company. I should have the engine stripped and taken to the machinist Thursday or Friday. He will see if the two pitted cylinders will clean at .030 over. I want to upgrade to the Melling MTO-1 camshaft and lifters as well as the Fel Pro gaskets and Moly rings. I do not think this is for the roller cam.
I have not taken the time to look up each item individually. I think Summit is asking $190 or so for the MTO-1 and lifters. On the Studebaker machining I provided all the parts except the two sleeves which the machinist acquired. I appreciate you taking up your valuable time to price check for me.
All engine kits are available in common rebuild sizes
(std, .030, etc.). Specify at time of ordering.
Each kit can be ordered with the following upgrades:
- Brass freeze plugs - $9.00
- Fel Pro gasket set - $14.00
- Moly rings - $16.00
- High volume oil pump - $39.00
- RV camshaft (280/290 .448/.472- may require new valvsprings) - $11.00
- Valvesprings for RV cam (exc VIN 9 engines) - $44.00
- Valvesprings for RV cam (VIN 9 engines) - $72.00
Go with the RV cam upgrade in that kit, it will be the Melling/Edelbrock SBO Performer cam, it has the same specs. That is the right kit, the flat tappet 307 HO continued till mid 85. Yeah the moly rings are a good upgrade. The Felpro kit is decent quality with basic cork pan gaskets and valve stems seals as mentioned. There is a neoprene real main seal available to replace the rope seal, the Ford 292 Y block or AMC 252 with the extra tabs removed or an AMC 360 rear main can used. The AMC are a tighter fit than the Ford seal but both work fine.
Charlie,
I check on the kit this AM. I could sell it for a lot less but it ;looks like a lot of the parts are back ordered from the manufacturers Not surprised right now. I will get a price with the MTO-1 cam and let you know. When I did the engine in my Wifes car I used the Ford rear main seal and I think that is the first time since that car was new that it hasnt leaked some It has not leaked or used a drop of oil in almost 5000 miles.
The machinist was pretty sure .030 over would take care of the pitting. The crank has some lines in it. He will polish them out and check the diameter to see if standard will still work or if they will have to be ground down. I found a place called Mabbco Motors in Tyler, TX who sells rebuild kits. The kit with RV cam (similar specs to an MTO-1 cam) and Molly rings is $610. They use a lot of Enginetech parts. The only concern I have is Enginetech uses aluminum for their bearings. I did some research and it appears for the lower HP engine builds they will work OK. I will need to order the aluminum radiator I will be using in the car so I can do the break-in run when I get the engine rebuilt. Bill, I am still hoping to get a bid from you as well as learn more about the Ford rear main seal.
Charlie D.
Last edited by Charlie D; Mar 4, 2022 at 09:30 PM.
Basically the direct neoprene or silicone seals that fit the 260 through 403, the 400 through 455 uses a BBF seal, is the Ford 292 Y block replacement seal. They are black in colour, I used Supercars Unlimited version since I was ordering parts, it worked perfectly fine. I also used the AMC 252 inline 6 seal, supposedly the AMC 360 is the same without the "ears" on it. It is a tighter fit than the 292 seal. Lube is needed to install, most offset the seal from the cap line and use RTV at the seal ends and a little bit in the cap. Here is some links. One actually as an Olds replacement. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...ake/oldsmobile
Ford 292 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-bs6141/make/ford
AMC 6 seal, you can see the extra "ears" that need trimmed. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...0612/make/jeep
Mahle Clevite bearings that aren't aluminum can be had if aluminum bothers you. The aluminum isn't pure aluminum, it likely has some tin and silicon in it as well, but as you say, is only intended for low performance stock engines that's not going to see any heavy loads.
If you really want better bearings, talk to your machinist or you can check out these part numbers for the "better" bearings.
Main bearings set- MS-805P comes in STD, .010 or .020 under, steel backing/copper and lead intermediate layer and topped with electroplated lead-base overlay.
Cam bearings set- SH-1355S comes in STD only, steel backed copper-lead matrix with overlay
Rod bearings set- CB-684P(8) comes in STD, .010 or .020 under, steel backing/copper and lead intermediate layer and topped with electroplated lead-base overlay.
Issue is, all those bearings will likely run you another couple hundred bucks. I'm gathering you're looking for this to be a very low-buck rebuild.
Enginetech claims high silicone impregnation negates the need for a bi or tri metal bearing. The Federal Mogul are Bi metal and the ACL, King and Mahle/Clevite are tri metal. Will the Enginetech bearings be acceptable for a maybe 200 hp Olds 307? Probably, they will be just fine for many miles. See what bearings are available in the size you need, everything is still in short supply.
Many years ago I was working in an auto parts store; this was before the advent of computerized catalogs. The print catalogs we used almost always had both cross reference and dimension specifications of the parts offered. As I recall this would have been early 1970s and a friend was doing a mild performance rebuild on his 1966 330 CID Olds. I knew about the Ford replacement for the big block Olds rear main seal so I set about looking in the engine parts catalog to see what other engines had the same diameter rear main as the 330 Olds and found the 292 Ford Y-block to be the same. I ordered one from the warehouse and we tried it in his block. It was a perfect fit and never leaked.
I wondering how long the neoprene seal has been available. We did a 292 Ford in the late 90's in the one shop I have worked at. The old rope seal was hell to get out with the motor in the truck. I am almost positive a rope seal was put back in. I assumed a neoprene wasn't available at that time.
Yes, that is my retirement picture. I joined the Naval Reserves when I was 17. I did not want to go to Vietnam so thought joining the Navy would help prevent that. I ended up volunteering for Vietnam but was sent to shore duty San Diego, CA. I started out as an E1. Promoted to E6, received a direct commission as a Supply Officer and over the years promoted to O5 (Commander). The unit I was in was the first full unit in Oklahoma recalled for Desert Shield. We went to Sicily and then on to Saudi Arabia.
I guess the neatest story of my career was my promotion to Commander. As an E1 and in boot camp, I saw these officers with embroidery on the bills of their cap and thought that looked so cool. The enlisted referred to this as scrambled eggs. Wearing them became a desire of my heart. Twenty eight years or so later I was given that desire.
I want to thank you guys for the information on the rear main seal. My engine had the half-round rubber seals. It was obvious it had been gone through some time ago. Sitting in a field for several years did it no good. Now it is a waiting game for the machinist to do his thing.
Charlie,
The fact that the bearings are "aluminum" doesnt bother me. Virtually all modern engines are using aluminum based bearings. I just too a set out of a 2014 Chevy truck 6.0 that had close to 300K miles on it and the bearings looked like new. I would be more concerned with the actual quality of the parts. They are selling you a kit for $600 with a bunch of off brand parts ?
I can get you a kit for just about the same price with all name brand parts Not sure how much more it will be for the cam upgrade but probably not much. If you are interested send me a PM and I will price it out to be sure.
I am still surprised that your machine shop has not offered to get a kit for you ???? They should be able to do the same deal as me.
I'm sure you are proud of your Naval service as I would be. I also remember being in awe of the scrambled eggs. I was in for 4 years as a "snipe" Engineman. I look back on those 4 years very fondly, now I am older I wonder what my alternate future would have been if I had stayed in for my career....
I want to update whoever is interested on my rebuilding the 307 project. The machinist has completed his evaluation of the parts and has been cleaning everything. The crank is good to go after it was polished. The cylinders need to be bored and honed to remove the pitting in the two bad holes. I found and ordered from Rock Auto .040 over sealed power pistons. I ordered them last Friday night and got them in today, Tuesday. I was impressed with how fast they got them to me. I took the pistons to the machinist this evening.
While there, he tried an exhaust and an intake valve in the guides. They were pretty sloppy so he will ream out the old ones and put in new guides. He will also press the new piston pins in my rods.
While waiting on the engine I received the radiator I will be using in the restomod Studebaker. It fit nicely in the radiator support. I have also been cleaning and painting some of the engine parts and tranny with Bill Hirsch Pontiac Light Blue. The machinist thought he could start in on my engine any day now.
That is a nice looking radiator. That 2004R is super blue too. When you open the hood and they see the Pontiac Blue, confuse them even more, tell them it is a 313 V8, which it will be and let them guess😁.
I went and picked up my heads today. The machinist said it took about .008 to clean them up. He had installed new valve guides and measured the valve stems and reamed the guides out .001 larger. He used the valve stem seals that came with the Felpro gasket set. He will start boring on my block tomorrow and it should be ready this week. I am getting pretty excited about having things back to start in on the rebuild.
I received the last Melling MTO-1 camshaft with the 204 & 214 duration that ROCK Auto had in stock. Received Sealed Power .040 over pistons and rings and accumulating the items needed to rebuild the engine. The air tubes in the exhaust ports were removed. is there a pipe plug or something similar to put back in the threaded holes?
Tell him to note how far below deck the pistons are at TDC. The cast replacement pistons are shorter in height. It will depend on how much is needed to square the deck. Hopefully they don't end up .040" below deck, a big compression and quench killer. I believe the plugs needed aren't pipe thread. I believe they are standard threads. I was lucky enough to have factory plugs on my 81 307 that I reused. No AIR system till 83 in Canada.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; May 16, 2022 at 05:59 AM.
Tell him to note how far below deck the pistons are at TDC..
I was really lucky when I did the 307 in my Wife's Riviera. I found a set of NOS Zollner pistons that were the oem pin hgt. Most of the others are .020 shorter. In all reality on a stock rebuild it probably does not make much difference. If you have milled the heads and take the oversize bore into account the compression ratio ends up about the same. The "quench" will be a little more but probably still within factory tolerances.
Curious why he did that ? Unusual for the valves to be too tight.
And I cant believe he is using a manual valve spring compressor ?? I have had an air operated one as long as I have been in business. Cannot even think about doing it with a manual one
I was really lucky when I did the 307 in my Wife's Riviera. I found a set of NOS Zollner pistons that were the oem pin hgt. Most of the others are .020 shorter. In all reality on a stock rebuild it probably does not make much difference. If you have milled the heads and take the oversize bore into account the compression ratio ends up about the same. The "quench" will be a little more but probably still within factory tolerances.
He will gain slightly more than a CC with the .008" head mill. I wonder if he used cast iron guides? Yeah being oversize will help compression some. Hopefully they aren't too far on the hole. He is upping the cam size, 7 to 1 wouldn't be great. If they end up .020" in the hole, it isn't the end of world and it should be around stock. I know Dodge had pistons a ridiculous amount below TDC. Even the Magnum version of the SBD were still .040" below deck.
It looks like my block will be the last one done at this machine shop. It has been open for 35 years or so but the owner passed away a couple of years ago. Johnny, his right-hand man continued operating it until now. The family wants to sell the house and the shop area and it is to be cleaned out in a few weeks. He miked the stems and they were .001 larger than he had anticipated thus the need to ream out the guides. They looked like steel to me. He looked at my Melling cam and said it was parkerized and needed to be washed with soap and water before being installed.
I have decided at least for now to use the air tube fasteners modified the way the prior owner had to block off the holes in the head. I am thinking about cutting them off even with the heads with a cutoff disc. One of the things I recently did to the restomod Studebaker Coupe was swap out the DANA 44 3.54 rear end for a DANA 44 3.07 ratio. One of the available ratios for the 1984 Olds 98 was 2.93. I figure if the 307 could be used with that ratio for a 98 then it should have no problems in a car weighing 1,000 pounds less.
I appreciate your advice and comments. Your knowledge of Oldsmobile drive trains is a blessing.
Charlie D.
Not surprised right now. I will get a price with the MTO-1 cam and let you know. When I did the engine in my Wifes car I used the Ford rear main seal and I think that is the first time since that car was new that it hasnt leaked some 
It has not leaked or used a drop of oil in almost 5000 miles.
