I heard no odd noises. The engine was not seized, it stopped running, but I could turn it by hand and by cranking both.

I'm not defending myself as much as I'm trying to shed light on the affair.


--------
I DID get the timing chain right when I did it the last time. So, SOMETHING that didn't go wrong. :P
ubiaEIU.jpg

Stuck my finger into the oil pan after I took off the timing cover. Metal parts in the oil. The oil from around the lifters wasn't full of metal, whatever that means.
1wNvhxa.jpg

All the cam lobes look like this. I have no idea if that's good or not. It was parkerized when I installed it.
CBrHf91.jpg

...Except for this lobe, which seems to have aluminum fused to it. Scratching it with a nail didn't get it off.
MOkP6xz.jpg


More to come. :P

 

Damn Seff.
A used 350 somewhere over there?
A 403 out of a late model Delta 88?
This one is a big fat $ do-over.

I had a 79 Buick Park Avenue that had
a 403 with over 175 K on it. Granted I bought
from a Hyster dealership that was a salesman's car.
It was brought to service every 30 days.

Check for Pontiac full size cars as well. They
crammed 403's in several different large GM bodied
cars back in the day. I feel old when I think that
it wasn't that long ago...

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
Your trashed engine has new parts you can utilize
on a used runner as well.

 

I've seen 350 and 455 blocks, and complete diesel engines, for sale, all Olds. None of those would work without more machine work than this one will take to get running again - unless it has major damage yet to be uncovered.

The original refurbish, with an .040 over bore, lining in one cylinder, crank turned .010 down and heads cleaned, polished/ground flat and a three angle valve job, including 8 valve guides(is that what they're called?). Total labor price was ~$3000. Evidently that was without cleaning the engine or heads, and without making sure all the freeze plugs were intact.
That's what it costs to get an old engine ready for a rebuild over here.

Besides, what am I going to do with an old beaten engine? If I just want to get running, I'll swap my MT crank into the running '71 350 I have in the car now, along with new bearings. Of course, I might **** THAT up too. :P

 

Don't olds engines (cast iron heads) have a 6 degree valve angle to the pistons? ( I think the e-brocks have a 18 degree angle), so wouldn't that require an angled notch in the pistons(relative to the piston head)?

Who mentioned anything about canted valves?

I you have ACTUAL valve reliefs cut for intake and exhaust(one larger, one smaller), and offset pin alignment (hence the forward "notch"), would you not agree there is a set of four rights and four lefts? Or am I missing something here....very possibly...

 

Don't olds engines (cast iron heads) have a 6 degree valve angle to the pistons? ( I think the e-brocks have a 18 degree angle), so wouldn't that require an angled notch in the pistons(relative to the piston head)?
===========
Huh, I admit I have never measured super-accurately. I just diamantle 'em and take 'em to the machine shop. I guess I could have missed 5-6 degrees.



Who mentioned anything about canted valves?
=============
I did, based on the not-circular relief cut slash valve indentation on the pistons.

I you have ACTUAL valve reliefs cut for intake and exhaust(one larger, one smaller), and offset pin alignment (hence the forward "notch"), would you not agree there is a set of four rights and four lefts? Or am I missing something here....very possibly...
===============
Well, then, there'd be 4 kinds, LH and RH and aft of center vs. fwd of center. What with the outermost valves always being intakes.

 

Interesting tidbit: The only piston that kissed the head was the one that was NOT installed upside down.

 

Curiouser and curiouser...

- Eric

 

I have other small jobs today, but I'll see if I can squeeze in a bit of engine dismantling.

 

Finally time for some surgery. Well, more like autopsy, in this case. :P

-----

#5 piston, the one that had kissed the head, was loose in the bore and around the crank, so this was a dull surprise.
IlkxXYo.jpg

This was the bad side of the piston, and the only one that looked like this. Further down is a picture of what the rest of the pistons looked like.
5CaJrpc.jpg

This is really quite a lot of damage, in my opinion. As is evident from the next picture, it's been quite hot, so maybe some melting occurred?
4EduwhT.jpg

Heated pin. That can't be healthy. We're still on #5.
CHM3zHd.jpg

The bearing in question. Dead as a doorknob.
STVE6yq.jpg

Onwards to #6. This fell out after I removed the bearing. Yikes.
8u4mz9z.jpg

What the rest of the skirts look like. Every one except #5's one side. Still looks pretty bad for a new engine and new piston.
33UX0Ay.jpg

#6 has evidently been even warmer.
ksv0fiS.jpg

The rest of the connecting rod bearings. All have rough surfaces, all have marred the surface of the crank.
NGBWwoD.jpg

Could feel those ridges with my finger. The crank is already .010 undersized.
dBOsu2w.jpg

Crank bearings. I guess they're copper? All of them look like this, more or less.
1Tl5YMD.jpg

This ridge was discernible by finger as well. So all surfaces of the crank need to be turned down.
QdmK3OB.jpg



So, all in all, I'm left with a block, and hopefully heads, that don't need work. The rest needs work or replacement, as far as I can tell. Thoughts? :P

 

Man that's some serious damage for 3 minutes of running.

 

More like nine minutes, and all of it at 3000 or so RPM, to break in the cam, of course.

 

Wow, this thing looks like it had no oil in it!

Good luck with your rebuild. Maybe start with a different engine?

 

Holy smokes . That's some serious carnage. You really are going to re use your block and heads? why not find something that has not been put through hell. How exensive is it to get stuff out to your part of the world.

 

Wow Seth that is really really ugly. I feel your pain.

 

What oil pressure and temps was it showing before it stopped? I think there were multiple problems and mistakes here. Makes me sick to look at it. I feel your pain and sorry this had to happen. A very slow, methodical failure analysis is a must.

 

Ziff: This thing had oil in it, but if that oil was spiced up with metal bits, then it's not going to go well.

Ziff&Copper: Different engine vs. same engine: I'm taking the valves off of the heads today, then I'll look at them. If they're not harmed, I see no reason not to use them again.
If I buy a replacement engine (and I've only seen one 350, one 455, and one unidentified diesel so far), I'll basically be buying it blind. Will it need to be bored up like this engine did? That's a $2-3000 job with the labor prices we have over here.

Pistons from Egge cost $200 in import tax alone, so 'new parts' needs to be carefully considered. :P

Sampson: Thanks.

m371961: I can start with the first two mistakes - no temp or oil pressure gages on the break-in run. I was hard-***'ing this build, and I suspect I'm paying for my optimism now.

 

Seth with costs like that to rebuild it you may want to check on what the freight would be to ship a remaned engine or short block from the US. They are available from a lot of sources over here for around $ 1000.00 with core. I know it probably will not be feasible to ship a core back so your cost would be more but it may be worth checking into. Here is one source but there are many more if you Google remanufactured engines. http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7...ine/index.html

 

I'd be paying for excessive weight and the same import tax all over again, but you never know what ends up the more feasible thing.

Looking at rock auto for quick reference, rod and main bearings come down to .040 oversize, so I have SOME wiggle room. I'm certainly looking at new pistons and possibly new rods, though, for peace of mind.
The bores have minor scratching at worst, they don't SEEM bad. Hone, maybe?
Cam bearings and cam surfaces are clean and beautiful. The lobes have bits of bearing fused onto them, as shown above. Maybe go for a roller this time, for longer life and less ZDDP in the oil?

 

I agree. For this much damage to occur throughout the engine there was a lot going wrong. If all the pistons a scared like this I suspect heat was an issue. Seth you mentioned somewhere above "running this time with the radiator out of the car". How were you cooling the engine?

 

First time: ran the engine with a big barrel of water raised above the level of the engine, keeping the engine full of water, and allowing the thermostat to open and spit hot water into the barrel. I had issues with keeping the inlet hose on the water pump, however.

Second time: Took the radiator out of the car and hooked it up like it should be, filled it with water and had it level with the engine. No fan, but the radiator never got as hot as the engine anyway.

Note: Only one piston had the erosion, the rest were 'merely' scratched.

 

Is it my imagination, or is #1 main lower bearing half in the pic look like the alignment tang is pushed UP into the journal surface? Look at the bare copper around it....maybe it's just the picture.

 

Greg: Assuming that isn't just crud, you'd be right. I'll check, if you want.

----
I took the valve springs off the bent valves. Still, the valves were stuck. Light hammer application later, I got them out. All of them have areas like this along the stem, which doesn't want to come off, even when being scratched with a blade.
IfJpss4.jpg


I did not check if all four, but at least two of the valve guides have been replaced by the machine shop. Could the material be wrong?

But, if heat is the issue, then it explains why only one bank's exhaust valves stuck. They're much warmer than the intake valves, and a stoppage somewhere in the coolant flow would block off one entire head, right? Doesn't explain the eaten bearings, but so far, so good.

 

Where was this engine stored? Under sea water? That is RUST on that valve stem, not from heat. I don't mean to be nasty, but almost everything I look at in your pics are laden with rust....WHY?

 

Because the engine was rusty when it came apart, and everything on non-essential surfaces was not cleared off.

I have no idea how water would get into the valve guide, though, and how it could cause sudden failure like it did, if it's rust.

 

I am not sure that is rust on the stem. Could it be metal transfer from the guide to the stem from heat?
Seff, start at the beginning. List all that was done at a machine shop, from hot tanking, bore, cam bearings, valve grinding, replacements, guide installing etc.
Did they give you any measurements or clearences? If yes, what are they.
Did you measure any clearences?
ie., piston to wall, ring gap, stem clearences, bearings etc.
Did you do all assembling? Looks like 1 piston was wrong. What position were the rods and caps installed in, did the bearing tangs point to the cam or the pan rails.
Are you positive that all parts were correct. Proper oversize bearings, pistons, rings etc. Are you positive that cam and lifters were correct, not just correct according to the box they came in?
Was it assembled with assembly grease and primed correctly?
Sorry for the questions, and there are most likely more that need to be addressed.
Make a list of what you do know, including any known mistakes.
Make a list of what you do not know.

 

I was thinking transfer as well, since it did not rub off. That's a plus of material, not a minus, which rust would be.

Machine shop: Bore .040", lining in #8, crank turned 2.5 mm (.010") down on mains and connecting rod surfaces. Heads cleaned, three angle valve jobs, valve guides installed as needed, mating surface ground flat. Installed new freeze plugs, but didn't fix the ones in my heads, and didn't open up the oil passages, NO other CLEANING, NO hot tanking.
The only measurements of clearances they gave me were the 2.5 mm grind down.
I measured ring gap. Must admit that I figured that if the piston fit, it fit. Polished the crank main surfaces until the crank spun freely by hand, without the rear main seal. All stems moved freely, no bind of any kind. I had problems with the cam bearings, but I cut them with a bearing knife and polished them, and the cam and its bearings didn't show any wear - nothing like the rod and main bearings.
I had a guy press fit the pistons to the rods, and he didn't care about orientation. I checked the rods, though, and ALL bearing tangs pointed towards the cam, so I inadvertently got THAT right. :P
Rod and main bearings were right for the job, they fit, snugly. It all moved without play when I put it together. Model number on the cam fit with the model number I bought, a Howard's cam. Lifters worked when I primed the engine.
I greased up the cam and lifters like I should, though the amount of cranking and priming I did before it ran means I surely washed parts of it away in oil.

Known mistakes:
Didn't assure the block was clean. The first time I primed it, the #7 exhaust lifter was dry. I opened it up and cleaned both oil passages, removed an inch of dried up oil, and cleaned out the pin holes in the plugs. Then I buttoned it up.
Didn't assure the heads were clean. It's possible that some of the metal in the oil is from the porting. I cleaned them as best I could, but that might not've been good enough. Can't tell if it's from bearings or from porting
Installed the pistons wrong on the rods. This led to the pistons being upside down on 7 rods.
Installed the cam wrong the first time around. I primed and cranked it at this point, with no result. It was something like 90 degrees off on the cam gear. I assume that's the reason all eight pistons had minor valve indents.
Didn't measure clearances of pistons, bearings, stems, etc.


It's quite alright with all the questions, I'm as much in the dark in this case as you are. Ask away.

 

You put the block together after being bored .040 with a sleeve installed and DIDN'T clean it? Did you clean out the oil holes on the crank after it was ground?

And when your working with internal engine parts, there ISN'T anything that is not critical to cleanliness, rust or whatever.

What is a bearing knife?

I'm just trying to be helpful, so you don't make mistakes again

Greg

 

I cleaned obvious surfaces of the block. As mentioned, I didn't get to oil passages until I primed. Cam bearings had free passages down to the main bearings, though, which I made sure of when I installed them. The holes in the crank were clear when I installed it.

I've learned that every part needs to be CLEAN, yes. That's been chalked up as a major learning point, and I assume that's why I threw a bearing and ate the rest of them.

A bearing knife is a small metal 'knife' that allows one to remove bearing material, in this case the roughness left on the cam bearings from being installed poorly by myself.

I appreciate the help, I really do.

 

Could my engine have been too 'tight'? If the machine shop bored everything to 2.5mm instead of 2.54 mm (a true 10th of an inch), could make my crank grip the bearings too much?

 

Seth I am still hung up on the heat thing. I am not sure I understand what was going on here. Was the radiator in the car the first time? If so why were you using a barrel. The second time you took the radiator out of the car but hooked it up like it was supposed to be??.....and why no fan? Did you have the water pump pulley bolted to the pump and a belt on the pump so that the pump was turning? Cleanliness was definitely and issue but the scoring on the piston and cyl walls indicate some heat issues too.

 

You're assuming the engine in question was IN the car. :P It wasn't, I have another engine in the car. Easy to miss, no problem. First time rad. remained in the car, barrel was used on the bench. Second time rad came out of the car and stood by the bench. No fan because I didn't deem it necessary. Windy day out.

I had my PS pump set up as a belt tightener, to make sure the water pump was turning. I tested the water pump before running, it moved water. How well and how much is unknown, but it wasn't broken.

I agree, there's two separate issues here - heat, and fouling. The fouling is apparent, the heat is strongly suspected (is sticking valves of that kind normal?), and bad clearances is also suspected. There's no scoring on the cyl walls, though. Thankfully.

 

WOW
I have dismantled a LOT of engines, but never seen one that fubar'd in 10 m of running. My Saturn repair looks mild in comparison.

The closest I have seen was the guy that failed to clean the grinder dust out of the crank before installing it. Ran about 5 minutes then seized up. He had a lot of issues, all stemming from the idiot Ferd mechanic who worked on it for him. One good indicaton was no spark plug gaskets- why? "He said I don't need 'em."

The scored pistons and blue wrist pins indicate severe overheating. Looks like the ones out of my 403 [but much worse], built by a PO, with oh about 0.002-0.003" piston to wall clearance- NOT ENOUGH for forged pistons. Looks like part of your problem. Scuffs the cylinder, makes heat, ruins bearings. I took the block in and had it honed out to 0.004-0.005" clearance. "Oh Lord, no don't do that" they wailed, "it'll make noise! The literature says all you need is 2.5 thousandths!" I says, "just do it." Guess what? It runs GREAT, does NOT overheat, and if the pistons make noise at all it's only during warmup, and it bothers me not. Whatever pistons you use, you will be carefully fitting the pistons to the bores, of course.

Anyone who is not aware that pistons have a front and back... has no business pressing pistons off/on. Do not use that person's services again, right?

On the crank, a cut of zero point two five mm [0.25mm] is about ten thou[sandths]... more precisely, 9.84 thou. Now, the 0.16 thou or nearly "two tenths" [of a thousandth of an inch] is on the order of the tolerance you might expect the crank grinder to hold- that is, if the std size was 2.125, and the undersize is 2.115, then with really good instruments, you may expect to measure journals in the range of 2.1147 to 2.1151, for example, erring on the side of more clearance.

In any event, the crank should have been ground to match the bearings on hand. Whether you measure in mm or inches, the process is the same- grind the crank until the clearance is right. The assembler is then tasked with verifying the clearance during assembly- for lack of expensive accurate measuring tools, most folks use Plastigage, which at least indicates if you are in the ballpark, plus or minus a thou- Not down to 0.5 thou clearance or oh 10 thou like when the bearings are a size off [seen it happen].

The bearing knife sounds a lot like a deburring tool:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Set-B-Shav...item2329e12f1d

Maybe you can get some used but serviceable parts shipped to you to hold the costs down? Frankly, I would not trust those pistons or pins. Almost looks like a crack in the piston next to the pin there at about 4:30 on the pin. I'd send you a whole 350 to work on if you buy the shipping... I have literally dozens, some recently rebuilt- but they are all .030 over, not 0.040... and need a total dismantle, clean, and refurbish.

I find it mildly amusing that you used rod bolt condoms to protect that crank.

If you want to not do this over and over, I suggest starting with a bare CLEANED block. Like heated blast cleaned at a real machine shop, with all the plugs removed. Followed by soapy water and air blast, then spray oil to ward off the rust. Lots of air blast.

 

I am following this thread closely, but I have very little to add so far.

What I will say is that if the oil galleries were not carefully cleaned out after machining, then there is a good chance that stuff in there, where metal from the machining or other crud that had been there before, got out and into your bearings.
Hot tanking is great, but even a good cleaning with long bottle brushes and heavy-duty detergent should do the trick.

The thing that seems odd to me (and maybe it's not really odd at all, but it seems to be), is that if the main bearings were destroyed by foreign matter, then why weren't the cam bearings?

From what I've seen so far, I'm guessing heat was the main culprit, throughout the engine.
I would bet that there was some flaw in your assumptions about the function of the cooling system. A diagram might make clear exactly what you did, but if I read correctly, you initially ran it with the lower radiator hose immersed in a bucket of water, and the upper hose directed into the same bucket. You didn't specify whether you had filled the block with water, but whether you did or didn't (obviously, didn't is the worse choice), I think that you believed that the water pump would suck the water up out of the bucket and push it through the engine, when, unfortunately, that is not the way that tat the water pump was designed, and it must operate completely immersed in water at all times and cannot pull it in.

My guess is that the damage was done during the first brief run, then wrought its full effect during the second longer run.

- Eric

edit: Looks like Octania was posting while I was typing.
We're both thinking mostly heat, he's thinking clearances, I'm thinking cooling.
I agree with everything he says, and there is no reason why the problem can't be the result of two different causes
(or why it can't be the result of only his cause, for that matter ).

 

Sorry to see this Seff. GL

 

After further study of the pics, does that wrist pin even look like it's anywhere NEAR to the right size for the piston? Looks like odd wear there.(egg shaped) Are those supposed to be forged pistons?

Isn't the piston/bore clearance supposed to be a function of bore size? Bigger bore/more clearance? Especially with forged slugs.

 

There are lots missed here.
Hot tank with all plugs out. Clean each passage. I use gun patches. Just make sure you don't lose one in the passage.
Assembler should always verify clearences. Plastiguage for bearings, model clay for a quick piston to valve clearance. (I think this would have shown the problems before start-up) A real machine shop will measure each piston and hone each hole to match. As above, loose is better to an extent.
Use mechanical guages at start-up.
If it aint a race car, hook up the muffler to hear the engine. If it is, use a stethoscope.
You MAY save the block with lots of inspection. You will have to hone and measure the bore, check alignment, magnaflux etc.
You may be able to regrind the crank.
Everything else is suspect.
This site has a lot of good infohttp://boxwrench.net/index.htm
Good luck

 

Cast pistons from Egge, they came with those wrist pins.

Octania: A lot of what you're saying, apart from the importance of cleanliness, is that machining the block and crank is the LAST thing that needs to be done, after the parts have been bought, so the shop can get the clearances right. This was just the opposite - I gave the shop the standard specs of the block, and told them to oversize it by however many hundredths of an inch they deemed necessary to make it work. Then when they told me how much they'd taken off (0.040 overbore, 0.010 crank), I merely ordered bearings and pistons to that specification, and assumed it MUST fit. My mistake.

So, instead of that, I'd better plan out my engine build properly, so I KNOW what I want, buy the parts, and get everything machined to fit. I'll be starting a new thread for that, because if I'm doing this over, I'm not going with the same setup. Different cam, different focus. Perusing the market, both over here and abroad, to see what kind of goodies I can find.
Your offer of a 350 is most kind, I'll certainly have that in the back of my mind. Thank you.

Eric: I filled the block before running, and had the bucket raised so there was always water at the inlet of the pump. That may not have been enough, but that was my thought when I did it.

m371961: My assumption at the time was that the valves don't open far enough with a near-stock cam to hit a piston that's only almost at the deck height of the block. Evidently I was wrong. The faulty cam timing on initial assembly might've been what left valve marks all around the engine, though.

I appreciate the thoughts guys, I'm working on getting this right the second time.

 

Seff, when you set up the bucket, was it more like this:




Or like this:



I think you can tell what I mean from my crude drawings.


Also, is there any way you can use any of your military connections for shipping?
Depending (vastly) on circumstances, family status, location assigned, and rank, US soldiers can sometimes ship a fair amount in and out of other countries. If you have any sort of a similar deal, is there any way you could swing something with someone in the US to ship something through some place which you have both passed through, from the US, to there, to your home?
I know it's not likely, but it's just a thought.

- Eric

 

The upper picture - otherwise the water would drain out of the engine until it was level with the water in the bucket, of course. Merely lifted the bucket on my pallet lifter until it was level with the engine. Nice MSPaint skills, though.

My military status yields NO such thing - but I have three uncles, all car guys, that live in AZ, CO and NM. The NM guy drives a new Shelby, the CO guy has a 60-something Corvair which is constantly broken, and the AZ guy did small DIY car repairs until the late 80s, where he bought a Toyota truck out of disgust with the US cars of the era. I'll let you be the judge of which is wiser. :P

 

Just making sure, though I still think that something about the way the bucket was set up interfered with the flow of water. Was the hose kinked in any way? Did you use the original hose (short) or a different hose? How were you able to get the hose to reach over the rim of the bucket, if the water level was above the pump, or did you connect it through the side like I illustrated (and thank you for the compliment, by the way ).

And the whole thing about taxing all these parts seems wrong to me - I know that the US has tariff agreements with most countries, including the EU, that are very specific, and that antique auto and motorcycle parts are all exempt, whether old or new (my father buys a lot of stuff from Germany).
I wonder whether your customs personnel didn't get the memo on that one - it's happened to us over here a few times.

- Eric