Seff

Believe me, they sneak up on you...


Thanks. :P

oldcutlass

Where did you find the Twinkie?

Seff

The pocket of my grandfather's WWII jacket. Those things LAST.

oldcutlass

LOL...So do fat girls.

Seff

Yeah, but those I can out-run. :P

frankr442

I've always been afraid to try the paper towel TDC trick. My luck it would get sucked in on the intake stroke.

Seff

The trick is to make the wad thick enough that it can't be sucked in, I presume.

oldcutlass

You can always stick your finger in the spark plug hole.

Seff

Good thing it isn't a BBO, I'd get sucked into the cylinder and have to cry for help.

Seff

tqe03Od.jpg

Oh look, a new problem. I've run the engine for seven minutes now, and now this. I guess the engine shop didn't notice that this plug needed replacing as well. >.>

They're one inch plugs, yes?


In semi-related news, a reconditioned starter at a Danish parts place would cost me $220, and a used Grand Cherokee steering box would cost me $230. Envious? :P

joe_padavano

My arms aren't long enough to keep my finger in the #1 plug hole while simultaneously turning the key. On the other hand, I WAS able to watch the paper towel while turning the key. You are NOT going to suck the paper towel into the cylinder.

frankr442

This was an attempt at humor. Maybe I should have used one of those smiley face things!

frankr442

Looks like Seff got the joke. Maybe I do have a future in comedy after all.

Seff

Internet communication has three sides: What it says, how the author intended to say it, and how the reader read it. Seldom are they the same. :P

Seff

How quickly is the engine supposed to get too warm to touch? A minute of 2500 RPM? Five minutes?

Seff

Well, bad day at the workshop. :P

Ran the engine again today, this time with the radiator off the car. It went well for three minutes, then the engine stopped, at 3000 RPM. Bam, no more running. No suspect noises, so I checked spark and fuel, and tried cranking again. Nothing but a backfire or two. Upon inspection, the following was found.

Passenger side. Oil. Wet?
2JjQx1X.jpg

Yep, wet. So it's not burning oil, it's SPITTING oil. Can't decide if this is better or worse.
SEXuWWV.jpg

All four of them? Really? Seems unlikely that I did the valve stem seals or piston rings bad on one bank, but perfectly on the other. Hmm.
VUEDhLG.jpg

Well, that's not good. O.o
CaHvxHk.jpg

That's even worse. Stuck, probably bent, valve.
sgPQcKv.jpg

At this point, I realized that this engine was coming apart again, so I started working on picking it apart.

Well, that's not good at all. One visibly broken lifter, all four exhaust pushrods bent.
L9ySLUi.jpg

Crap. Going to have to pull all these out to see if they're fractured or bent in any way.
Ms17k77.jpg

Bent exhaust valves. That's gonna be fun to fix. >.>
LseolXu.jpg

Yep, all four of them. Juuust lovely.
1kSI9AT.jpg

#4 cylinder exhaust lifter and pushrod. I wonder where those parts went.
YJApIiE.jpg

Driver's side has markings from the valves as well, so I'm going to pull everything apart. My schedule got a lot busier. >.>
XfURzT3.jpg



I figure that the bad cam timing is the reason for at least the smaller markings on piston tops, since those seem to have been there from all valves - assuming that a starter can cause that. But what caused the major bending of all exhaust valves on the passenger side is eluding me, when the driver's side wasn't harmed. Bad cam timing should affect all cylinders equally, no? The timing chain is too new to have slipped, though. I hope.

oldcutlass

Are those fuel injectors on the intake?

Man what a mess! I wonder if you have 45 deg cba cam, was it running like crap?

Seff

When I got the choke right, it roared to life, didn't smoke, and didn't backfire.

Yes, injector bungs. Long-term goal is injection, since it's a daily driver.

oldcutlass

It's weird that there are no marks on the other bank. Yeah I looked up your build thread, and the last post raised a concern that was never addressed about cam card notes.

Seff

Which thread are you thinking of?

I agree, the lack of serious damage on the driver's side bank is strange.

oldcutlass

This one:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-72-350-a.html

Seff

Ah, of course. I have too many threads knocking around to keep track.

When I installed the cam, it was installed dot to dot. The second time. I took before and after pictures that time, though.

Octania

Post #67:
"It sounds like you used an alternate timing mark... with the crank key [and thus the crank] not correctly positioned with respect to the cam."

Called it.

Wow. That's a lot of damage.

The bent valves and pushrods and such you could easily blame on the timing set error. That should have been caught in the final assembly, when the engine did not turn smoothly but the parts contacted. Oh, also, evidently this is the same engine:
"There was an inch of dried up oil behind the driver's side rear oil galley plug. It took a screwdriver and a hammer to get it out of there." - at that point, with indications that the engine was never properly cleaned, it has been my experience that it needs to be 100% dismantled and gone thru right.

Your photo of the loose rocker shows the valve not coming back to seat even though the rocker is off it. That said bent valve[s] to me at that point.

Now, the #5 piston? LH side photo... shows contact with the HEAD- the flat line across it. That's bad. The only way that can happen is if the rod bearing / journal is wasted. Not sure I would trust those pistons, even with an inspection. And my standards are generously low.

PS you had a lug nut on your head stud. WT????

MDchanic

Wow. That really sucks. I'm sorry.

If it's any sort of fractional consolation, I very nearly did the same thing last month when I put my engine together - I was using a Cloyes timing set that has 9 possible settings (figured better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it...), and I didn't fully understand how the various dots were supposed to line up.

I set up my dial indicator and the results just didn't make sense.
I rechecked the cam card, recalculated everything to be sure I understood what I was looking at, and checked again.
Still the same result.
I was looking right at the cam marks, and they looked right.
I was just about to say "Screw it!" and put it together anyway, knowing that I did something wrong with the dial indicator, when I took just one more look at the marks, and saw how I had gotten them wrong. Once I saw it, it was obvious, but not until then.
I reassembled, rechecked, and the dial indicator said it was 1° advanced (which is to say, just right).
I took a picture so I could recheck myself later, if I got scared.

But I was this close to buttoning it up and running it W-A-Y off.

I tend to agree with Octania that those pistons need a REALLY close check before you even think of using them.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I wonder why it was just 1 bank though, you'd a thought when he was trying to start this thing way back in the beginning of this thread he'd have contact with all the pistons at one point or another.

I agree, time to start over.

Sugar Bear

Someone offer their thoughts...it looks to me like the pistons are not all in the correct orientation some notches face forward and some do not on the bank that is not clean. Assuming they are the correct pistons, some are installed backwards on the rods or the rods are backwards on the crank and I'm not even sure if the latter is possible on an Olds.

MDchanic

I don't see that at all.

- Eric

Sugar Bear

Look at the last piston on the side that is not clean and there is a notch at about 4-5 o'clock. Now look at the next piston forward, I don't see the notch and that piston hit the head. Also on the clean pistons the .040 is upside down, although not for certain a problem I would expect to see the numbers correct side up and all of those pistons contacted the valves. What are your thoughts?

MDchanic

I agree that I don't see the notch, but I don't see it on the opposite side either, and the valve reliefs are in the same place on all pistons.

- Eric

Sugar Bear

I have not had an Olds apart in years, but shouldn't the four notches be located all the same on each bank? IIRC the wrist pin is not exactly centered in the piston and the piston to rod orientation would cause one piston to hit the head and one to have clearance?

Seff

I'm hearing all of you. Guess it was too naive to assume that I'd do it right the first time, even though I hoped it'd work.

Sugar bear is right, from the picture you can see that #5 (the one with the head contact mark in the last picture) has the notch facing the other way. There's another thing I wasn't conscious of when pressed the pins into the pistons - piston head orientation.

The engine turned with relatively little effort. I would have thought that the amount those valves were touching would make it impossible for me to turn the engine by hand, and that's never been the case.

Timeline:
First assembly: wrong keyline on the crank gear used, engine won't start at all. That's where this thread started.
Second run: Cam back on track, engine started several times, total running time was seven minutes. Engine would die, not fade, but abruptly, and get very warm very quickly. This was with a big bucket of water for a radiator.Then a freeze plug in the DS head leaked.
Third run: This time with the radiator off the car. Freeze plug fixed, engine started after fiddling with the choke. Ran for five minutes, then abruptly died again, and would not start. This was when the damage was discovered.


So, did a lot of RPMs for a few minutes, which makes it hard to believe that the bent valves occurred on the first or second run. Right? Anyway, I'm taking it further apart today, so we'll see what it looks like.

MDchanic

Good eye, SugarBear!

We're all waiting to hear more, Seff.

- Eric

gregvm

On an Olds engine, pistons with valve reliefs of any kind are left bank and right bank..... You cannot interchange them. you get four lefts and four rights in the set. Due to the reliefs and the pin orientation(notches facing forward)

Also, the connecting rods must be oriented on the crank in such a way that the bearing tangs face the CAMSHAFT, not the pan rails(as some other GM's do)

Keep this in mind for reassembly....

Greg

Sampson

Now you have me thinking about how my rods are oriented. Machine shop assembled rods and pistons and I made sure the pistons were installed correctly but did not look at the rod orientation. What are the odds the machine shop would have installed these backwards? The work was done by a respected Chebbie high performance shop?

Sampson

Seth, I have been watching your build and your car has come a long way. I am impressed with what you have accomplished but what a mess that engine is. There are a lot of broken parts in that thing. We all learn the hard way and there are a lot of others who can sympathize with your situation. At this point it is almost worse than starting from scratch. I would buy a good book on engine building or find an olds engine manual. Maybe it is the pics but did you have the cylinders honed and checked for wear? I would send all the parts to be checked. Block manga fluxed and hot tanked. Rods checked for straightness and cracks. Pistons etc. Have the machine shop do the cam bearings and resize the rods and install pistons on the rods etc. Crank was stressed as well so it needs to be rechecked. Oil pump may have had metal come through. Don't take any short cuts rebuilding this a second time even though a lot of parts are brand new they were subjected to unusual failure. There is a lot of rust showing on your rockers and keepers? You need all these parts to be surgery room clean when putting this thing back together. At this point a lot of metal has been flying around so carefully cleaning and inspection is critical. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Seff

Gregvm: The pistons didn't have valve reliefs of any kind when I installed them - that's marks from pistons hitting the valves, either when I was cranking with the cam installed wrong, or when I ran the engine. I'm betting on the former.

Rods were installed per the chassis service manual, which means the numbered sides of the rods outwards, if that makes sense.

The rust on the rockers is worse on the camera than it is in real life, mild discoloration from when the engine was REALLY rusty.

More pictures en route.

MDchanic

Oh crap.

- Eric

Seff

Told ya - flat tops. :P

MDchanic

Not anymore.

- Eric

Octania

I see that piston error now that it is pointed out. Good catch.
Oh, and them ain't valve reliefs I am afraid.... but valve kisses. I could be wrong on that. Yeah, the valve kisses seen are full circle contact... the piston reliefs are cut an an angle, like Chevy Voodoo.... Olds valves are not canted.


I have not had an Olds apart in years, but shouldn't the four notches be located all the same on each bank? IIRC the wrist pin is not exactly centered in the piston and the piston to rod orientation would cause one piston to hit the head and one to have clearance?
==================
Correct, the wrist pin is offset a bit. Otherwise there would be no need for a "fwd" notch. That should NOT however change where the piston resides at TDC. It makes a small but not negligible difference in noise and cylinder side loading. Old Racer's Trick: reverse the pistons, alter the power band at the expense of noisier operation.


On an Olds engine, pistons with valve reliefs of any kind are left bank and right bank..... You cannot interchange them. you get four lefts and four rights in the set. Due to the reliefs and the pin orientation(notches facing forward)
==============
Since the Olds valves are not angled in any direction, I don't subscribe to this theory. Unless you count "90 degrees" as an angle.



Also, the connecting rods must be oriented on the crank in such a way that the bearing tangs face the CAMSHAFT, not the pan rails(as some other GM's do)
==================
The tangs may be a good indicator but what really matters is the bearings' clearance for the fillet at the end of its journal. Watch that, and all other related details will fall into place. Generally, the bearings are short or chamfered or radiused on one side/end to provide room for the journal fillets. If you put the other side of the rod against the fillet, it will interfere and eat both parts. Based on the piston hitting the head as I saw in the above photos, I'd say that is very likely the case here. Either that or lack of lube or metal in the oil ate the bearings... Seff says it heated quickly and then seized up. To me, that says seized bearings. Head kiss also indicates that. That thing had to have made some horrid noises during its demise.



Now you have me thinking about how my rods are oriented. Machine shop assembled rods and pistons and I made sure the pistons were installed correctly but did not look at the rod orientation. What are the odds the machine shop would have installed these backwards? The work was done by a respected Chebbie high performance shop?
=============
The Odds? Well, two possible positions, so, 50/50 is the odds....
Per rod.
So, assuming random assembly by a clueless worker, the odds of getting all 8 correct is 1/2 to the 8th power: 1 in 256, or 0.003906. With a clued worker, they are almost certainly all correct or all wrong. Oh, and the number stamped into the rod would have been done by a person after the factory, so it may be done sensibly... or not. I would not rely on that. Reminds me of the time I redid an engine for a friend... I had numbered all the parts... took rods in to have resized and whatnot... dolt put the things together randomly, so I ended up being forced to use the rods out of the order they were numbered.... Rod's Machine Shop in Holt MI, after Rod retired and others with much less skill took over.