Since you are coming in a little late 70Cutty, I'll give you the bare bones of my point. Don't tell someone else's customer that their machinist is incompetent. Encourage them to go back to their machinist and ask more questions. I'm not sure that can be construed as argumentative. If the guy comes back to the forum and gives us a build sheet and it's all wrong, that is when we jump on the bandwagon and get that guy the heck out of there. I believe my point of view is very valuable. Validation is not solicited nor required.

 

Clearancing is when you calculate maximum lift to ensure that the valve does not touch the piston...... It's why some pistons have valve relief. The bigger the valve, the more risk, but we haven't even talked about valve size yet.

 

You just don't know when to stop.

 

I never once said that 80rockets calculations are innacccurate. I believe him to be quite competent. You should read what I write and comment on the content. Posting a build sheet that is totally awesome does not make this debate a point counterpoint conversation.

And the misogynistic remark is quite unwelcome.

 

You said this:

Even if the engine builder did zero the deck, the heads must have been clearanced in order to not smash valves into pistons.

What had me consused is I had no idea what you meant by "clearancing a head". Yes, pistons are clearanced in situations where the valve comes into close contact with the piston. I understand the procedure and was even lucky enough to do this operation on a mill before.

However, in this build (which is actually Phils build from another thread), he has an XE268 cam, flat top pistons.....and even if he has a zero decked block, the largest valves you could fit in the heads, and milled the heads to the max......he will not contact the valve into the piston.

But you didn't know that. You see, there are little nuggets of info you drop here and there that show you have zero engine building experience with an Olds. And I am a bit unsure of your general engine building saavy with some of the other things you have said (specifically, telling someone to check lash on a hydraulic cam).

As I already mentioned, your first contribution to this thread was one of condescension ("I need a popcorn eating smiley"). Yet, with your limited engine building prowess, you bust through the door with an attitude, and expect everyone to listen to your advice......when you don't even understand the technical advice we are talking about in the first place.

You should be reading this thread again to take in some of the knowledge given. A good place to stop would be right where you came in.

 

You just can't help it can you??? You have to make an argument out of some one elses opinion. Try this, accept that someone has different experiences and knowledge and try to understand where they are coming from.

If hydraulic lifters follow a flat cam there will be some lash....the push rod is only so long and the lifter will only pump so high. If they were set properly to begin with, this is a completely reasonably diagnostic test.

Can we move on??? Is it possible for you to let go of this??? or are you going to try to continue to chop me apart??? Why on earth am I such a threat to you??? let it go bro..... let it go

 

Exactly what I was referring to. I wasn't going to say anything, but since Don did I will comment on it. Piston to valve clearance is a non-issue with Olds engines unless the cam is BIG. It is an issue on "other" engines with canted valves. Again, one of the differences that you would only know IF you had experience building Olds engines.

 

Well I gotta say oldsmobile snobism knowitall at its best Im glad mark didnt jump in on the attack ....he knows his stuff and doesnt seem to take the low road and attack someone with opions on a damn engine build. If your that insecure that you have to come down on someone knowing you have more knowledge well i wouldnt want you even checking the air in my tires....and what hell is wrong with saying eating popcorn??? I do that all the time when im watching a good movie

 

Well pogo69 certainly mentioned what most of us were probably thinking . I see your point. I'm checking my air pressure's as you speak !!
The best never come out firing at the rest. ANUF SAID

 

I apologize to posters I called " snobs and knowitalls and apoligize for taking this topic even more off topic, i hope the original poster has received some help from the people here and some of the people here know oldsmobiles very well and know hiw to build them to go fast and they know that and offer their help, and even less savy olds people like to offer help based on their experience

 

This will be my final post on the topic unless the OP comes back with any questions.

I am speaking from experience of working at an Oldsmobile specialty machine shop. You guys should see some of the junk from other machine shops that we got:

-Cracked cranks that ate the #4 main multiple times until the customer decided to go to a different shop where we found the cracks immediately because it is a common issue with Oldsmobiles (big blocks).

-There's the ever famous "I got a fresh build with Speed Pro pistons and my engine keeps overheating" one. That's from the general machine shop not knowing that on the box of Speed Pro pistons, they have a clearance spec that is WAY too tight for that piston. It's not the machine shops fault in a way, they were just following the directions on the box. However, if they are a general machine shop (even if they were in business for 100 years), chances are they will overlook that and send the customer on the way with an engine that will fail within 100 miles of operation.

-There's the guy who wants to run a stock valvetrain, but regular ol run of the mill machine shop doesn't take that into account when doing valve job.......rut roh.

-How about the machine shop who "used 10.25:1 compression pistons" and upon disassembly, we find the motor is at best 9:1. That would explain why the motor was such a doggy down low because it was cammed for compression.

-How about the guy who wrecks his distributor gear? Regular ol' machine shop didn't realize that .030" hole in the rear galley plug that keeps the gear oiled.

You see, building an Olds requires knowledge of Oldsmobiles. There are tell-tale signs that machine shops are unfamiliar with an Olds, and when you see those things......you have two choices. Number 1, you can find another shop who has the experience working with an Olds....or #2, you are going to have to do your own homework and essentially become the builder making the machine shop primarily the machinists, and that is all.

This thread was a classic case of an otherwise pretty good machine shop who were unfamiliar with the inner workings of an Olds engine (there are not many shops with Olds experience). We all chimed in and led the OP down a path he is happy with, and will probably be even more elated when the engine is in the car and running like a raped ape.

For me to be called an "Olds snob" or insecure about myself.......well, that's pretty low. I don't take offense, or really care because this is just the internet. However, I do have a passion for Oldsmobiles and am happy to share my experiences with them. I do find it rewarding to help a guy out with his engine.

What it boils down to, though, is the fact that misinformation, or lack information to begin with, is the same reason Joe Shmoe goes to average machine shop with his Olds motor and gets burned. Opinions are fine and dandy, but when they lack real world tried and true experience on the subject at hand.....it is just that, an opinion.

PS- being Olds guys, we have the PERFECT example of being screwed over........how many have been raked through the coals by Mondello Performance Products (which is not affiliated with Bernard Mondello or Joe Mondello Racing engines, both these places are great)? I know I was burned when I first got into Oldsmobiles.

Despite the fact that some choose to believe most machine shops are on the up and up when it comes to Oldsmobiles, I contend most are simply not, and would prefer for people not to waste their money. That's my experience talking because I have seen it countless times, as well as some of the others that chimed in on this thread.

 

I had to BEG my machinist to hone to .0045. He was positive that .0025 was fine with coated pistons. Thankfully I was over at ROP at the time and the forum was littered with guys who had problems at the manufacturers specs or I would have been another. Bottom line, you need to be an informed consumer, whether you are dealing with a machine shop, doctor, realtor, insurance agent, etc. Do your own research!

 

Everything I wrote is a direct quote. I sat there on the phone with pencil in hand and took careful notes. If it wasn't for the information I learned here I would've been in bad shape. The probes are ordered (5 week back order sadly), the heads cc'd at 66 and cam is ground. Why would I fabricate anything? If I didn't want to learn I would've taken traded cash for a motor and told everybody about my 300hp 9:5.1 motor that wouldn't be able to smoke a tire. Numbers don't lie and don't call me "the customer." Im not an engine builder, that is why I am here. To learn. I'm not afraid of looking stupid for minute I'm afraid of being uneducated.

 

Kudos, well put.

 

Hey Adam, Don, Mark........ Adam- I'd love to know why you had your cam ground and what the #'s are? Also who did you use? Don - I'm ready to take all my parts to my chevy machinist and want to discuss what you've been talking about olds specifics, piston clearance-not 020, but 040-050, center exhaust valve guide clearance to be larger than 0025, oil galley hole?, bowl heads? Mark - I'm still trying to figure this whole cam thing out.....my machinist just pops the comp catalog open and says this should be fine? Too many choices and I really don't want to pick the wrong cam? To review- 1970 350 @ 30, SP 2320 flat tops, having heads cut to accept the 442 valves SP 1.64 and 1.98, TH350 rebuilt with B & M shift kit and 2500 stall, 3.42 posi, Stock exhaust mans( quieter and looks more original) with turbo duals, Do you all think that the comp 1441 are worth the $$ 20 HP? and should I get a dual plane manifold? another 20HP? carb -stock q jet? or QFS 750? no deck or head milling Just looking for a nice peppy driver that will run on pump gas and have a noticeable idle As Don calc - CR 9.6/1 with Felpro gaskets. Still need to cc heads once the new valves are cut, and planning double roller chain so I can degree in cam.....anything else I'm missing? Also....I'm not building a show car or race car and plan to wear her out in the next 20 yrs, lots of long trips-C to C? but not a Dailey driver either Thanks in advance for your help!! Eric M

 

I had my cam ground at comp. I'm going to a xe268 because I want it to thump and as you may have read anything over .500 lift wont be relevant in my application since my heads are stock. I'm 66cc heads and with the -3cc probe pistons I'll be coming in at 9.5 (decking dependent). I'm going performer RPM with QFS 750. Headers to xpipe to 40 series flow masters (I want it loud and aggressive sounding). I am waiting on the pistons to come in and will have more accurate information once it is all the way together. I would talk to Mark or Don about cam numbers bc you can do better than the out-of-the-box stuff with a custom grind; I was just impatient. I drive the car once every 3 weeks and I plan to burn a lot of rubber and test a lot of straight a ways (2004r + eaton 3.73+ 2400 stall)