Swoopy

Well it was running quite tight, smooth as silk. Recently fixed a vaccum leak, timed, dwell, cleaned out carb and it was great.
Started to have a slight miss at near idle cruising with tac slightly moving with my ear and seat feel. 65 mph at 1600 rpms, long legged girl.
So checked everything and went through the carb to make sure problem was not there.
Road test and pull first a bit and it pulls hard no miss, strong, than hit second.
After idle it was still missing and a bit rougher. Sounds like it has a nasty fat cam now.
Back to garage, note serious vaccum leak by intake, carb throttle shafts.
put my fingers over primary(no choke plate, nothing) and it idles up. Was probably there before.
Check timing, and it is off. Was 10 degrees, now 14 degrees and I can't retard as far as prior.
So tomorrow I'll do the test that others suggested to check timing.
I'll replace it this weekend and have a question.
Felpro gasket tip that came with timing cover gasket kit states" prior to applying the seal, apply a thin coat of grease on the seal face" and " do not install any seal without break-in lubrricant protection." I'll check olds manual but not sure about the directions.
What seal to grease, crank seal? the directions call round metal crank gasket a seal and the rubber pan gasket a seal. both to grease?
I' ll take pics and rant later!

MDchanic

Grease the neoprene crankshaft seal.

Use RTV on the half-circle oil pan front seal (especially on the end "wings").

If you degrease, de-rust, and repaint everything you can reach while you have it apart, it'll look really nice afterward. Also, clean, paint, and mark the balancer and timing tab, so that you can easily read the timing (you can also mark the balancer for 20°, 30°, and 40° for future timing endeavors).

- Eric

Swoopy

The novice I am, I made mistakes. Read all that I could prior to removing front cover and still did a dumb thing.
Accessories no trouble, brackets no trouble, front cover no problem.
Harmonic balancer, well... Original 1971 350 motor never opened. Crank bolt no issue either.
Put the puller on and damn, that balancer was tight, would not come off. Old rod type torque wrench and pulling over 120 ft lbs and no dice.

Take puller off, make sure its greased and pull once again bottoming torque wrench and Bam... snap both puller bolts, popped at speed flying pass my head. I laughed and thought I was lucky.

After removing the puller and checking again, I thought how can this be so tight? Looked over the crank hub and to my surprise the crank washer still in place! Never would come off with that on, duh. Novice, lessoned learned.

Pulled off the washer which now has a slight curve from puller point and wa la... off with less than 15 ft lbs. Well the chain was stretched and could move over 1 inch! The plastic teeth were all there, but look worn and perhaps small chips.

Question, original crank gear dot is at 12 and I think is cam gear dot at 12, are those dots (marks) correct? Or should I turn crank again to line dots at 12 crank and 6 cam gear before pulling gears? Number 1 piston is at top dead or close and distributer points slightly passed #1.

Balancer has slight ring or wear mark from oil seal. How bad does it have to be to order a sleeve? Rubber is tough, could not press with finger nail and it has a few minor cracks, Ok?

Prior to last street run second gear 2500 RPM hit, it ran tight, smooth idle, no issues after tune up.(Posted in brake section with booster vacuum leak.) Now it has changed. Ran really strong, no miss under accel, but cruise was hesitant and idle was becoming quite rough. I thought I would see a broken cam gear or worse.

Did the timing check and moved crank bolt back and forth while watching rotor. There was a lot of play before the rotor turned. I assume it was chain stretch along with vacuum leaks which are going to be addressed that caused the rough idle. But man, it sounds as if it has a really fat cam, now.

Perhaps it jumped, but the gears look as if they line up? With the front cover off and turning crank to line up gear marks, I could here swish..hiss of air escaping as the pistons turned from the open pan. Normal?

The MAWs hit and will be adding a cam, lifters, springs and value seals if necessary. Oh and cleaning.

Swoopy

62,000 miles.

Indy_68_S

Turn crank 1 turn to get cam gear dot on bottom. You want to line up dot-to-dot.

Hard to say without seeing it in person. A cheap trick is to put a washer 'tween balancer and crank snout to very slightly move balancer (& wear area) out a bit. Smear lube on balancer where seal hits it. Most gasket sets come with a new crank seal...

Hiss is somewhat normal during slow manual crank rotation.

Also, although your timing set (& vac issues) sounds like the culprit, make sure your dizzy is in good shape. I've seen worn dizzy bushings cause weird erratic timing issues....

Professur

just my 2 cents .. the sleeve is cheap, easy to install and your shaft doesn't have to have a huge groove to use it. It's more a question of ... is there any reason to not install one.

Swoopy

thanks gents, all advice welcome.
sleeve good idea as well as the dizzy bush check.

Dizzy bush check! ... Like checking dizzy bush!

MDchanic

Why? He's all lined up at TDC compression stroke for the #1 cylinder.
Do you feel that he will gain an advantage by lining it up on TDC for #6?
Or are you thinking of the latest SBC you took apart?


The sleeves are cheap and come with some versions of the gasket set.
Why do a "cheap" job when a better solution is also cheap?


Somewhat normal? Every engine does that, and I'd be suspicious if one didn't.
The rings don't make an absolute seal, only a relative seal that depends on the fast rate of attack of the pressure waves to function. At slow speeds, it's a slow leak.

- Eric

Swoopy

Wear mark on balancer is deep enough to feel with fingernail. I'll get rid of burned or caked oil and dirt off balancer with 800 or 1000 cloth which may reduce depth of wear perhaps. No gorilla scrub, just light buff to clean.

The oil seal has rubber and would have some flex to fill a slight gap I assume. The rubber seal has to flex to accommodate the .010 width of sleeve, so maybe it would flex and seal.

The sleeve is press on and since the balancer has wear, then will oil get passed sleeve to balancer surface? Balancer fits into front cover exposing the sleeve on top and balancer to sleeve below. Worry is my novice ability to re-seal the oil pan as the pan is tight and the gasket seems brittle.

For under $10 bucks its almost a no brainier if it does what advertised. Anyone else use this sleeve, hard to press on and did it leak?

Virgin to motor work besides water pump, or intake or carb replacement.

Move, rotate while putting pressure to all sides of dizzy to check for slack in bushings?

Thanks all.

MDchanic

You use sealant under the sleeve to hold it in place and prevent oil seepage. Usually not a problem to install.

You want to check radial play in the distributor. Axial play is fine (unlike our Chebby cousins).
Depending on your proclivities, the bushings can be replaced.

- Eric

Swoopy

Finally dove into unknown territory, and loved it.
Had help 15 year ago switching from a 2 barrel intake to 4.
Removed all items referencing and have gone as far as I can. Here in Maryland, we have a cold front. Usually on the Eastern Shore it is temperate and near 50. Now it’s hovering near 33 with 17 at night. No RTV at that temp or can I?
The oil pan front 4 bolts on both sides have been loosened and I can’t budge the pan. Well, didn’t use much force as I think the pan gasket may be brittle like value cover gaskets. (The VC gaskets broke apart.) Is it safe to pry apart oil pan to block with force? Working with thin to larger tools to loosen, being careful not to break oil pan gasket. How brittle will this oil pan gasket be? How did ya’ll do this?
During breakdown, the stock cam gear was surprisingly in good shape compared to others I have seen on this sight. I could have sworn it jumped time as when timing, it would not retard as much as it did before.
[ Prior I fixed a booster to master leak, tuned dwell, timing and it ran smooth, pulled hard but had a slight cruise and off idle hesitation. I also went through carb, cleaned and tuned again. Test ran and the hesitation was still there, pulled to 2800 and hit second and it ran strong, well for me anyway. Did not blow smoke and had no issues other than an off idle miss and cruise hesitation which I believe was vacuum leaks and timing gear. Back in the garage is when I noted massive intake vacuum leaks and when timed again, it did not retard as far. Jumped time? ]
Thus the new timing gear event.
With 85,000 miles on a low compression 71 Cutlass stock 350 motor, 2.56 rear, stock trans and converter, will a cam make that much of a difference? Read 15 to 25 HP max with a cam. So I figure as a 71 cruiser, the additional HP will not make it a street shredder. Will it be noticeable in seat of pants? It may go to the track for smiles and giggles, but not a racer, only a weekend cruiser (1600rpm @ 65mph and 1750rpm @70mph) with torque time. Smoke’m if ya got right?
Value guide seals are red on intakes and are all there as far as I can see and the exhaust are there as well. No pieces in the head or oil returns and only a bit of gunk on heads. One head, drivers, has more gunk than passenger side. Both sides had oil on rockers and in oil returns. Water pump went up last summer could this cause uneven heating? More so on drivers? Not sure which way the water flows.
The block has what looks like the # 13 stamped in the driver water pump (return? ). Just thought I ask what this number was. Also, is that mark on timing cover normal cam bolt mark?
To put an end to this, new timing set installed and am wondering if new cam and springs will be a waste?
Any do this, that, tips or quick quips are welcome.

Swoopy

Passenger side, intake area, drivers side and a blurred pic of value guide seal.
The old chain was way loose, an inch or better sway.
I love this stuff.
Now I want to take on that 425 (in parts) at back of garage.

m371961

I usually install balancer sleeve on any I do, reguardless of wear mark. If you feel the groove with a fingernail then it needs it. On deep grooves I have put a thin layer of JB weld in groove and installed sleeve while it is still wet. I have also used Loctite flange sealent under them. To install I usually chilled the dampner outside or in freezer and sat the sleeve on a lightbulb to expand and installed hot.

rjohnson442

x2 on heating the sleeve and freezing the balancer, makes it go on so much easier.

Swoopy

Thanks Patrick and Mr. Johnson for the tips with the balancer sleeve. I did that to the races on my rotors, it helped but was still tight.
So it seems that I will need the seal as my balancer has a groove the can be felt with finger nail. Didn't leak before, but why mess around.
Any benefit from cam or new springs?
Thanks all, Dave.

Swoopy

Global warming anyone? wait now it's climate change so the carpet baggers play olds both ways. What a scam, almost as bad as carbon footprint/dollars,pathetic. Anyhow, Weather changed ice, heat etc.... All prior to man on the planet, how pompous of modern man to think we control the earths climate. quite silly. rant over.

All I know that's it supposed to be near 70 tomorrow here in Maryland and I'm damn happy.

Either I will put motor together or decide to wait for a cam upgrade.
As stated, it was a stock 2 barrel 71 350 8.5 compression or stock for 71, it's got headers, a soon to be older performer intake but new to me and it's got stock 350 trans and converter with 2.56 or 2.73.

I know it's been beat to death, but since it was a 2 barrel motor, I'm guessing a modern cam may be beneficial with the intake and headers over original cam.
Learning and could use advice for those who have been down this road.

Read macs motor thread, very nice and one of the reasons I'm still wishy washy on cam decision along with reading a few other threads on small block builds.

Also, oil pan is secure and as noted prior, the bolts are dropped and the seal is difficult to break between pan and block. Wisdom required, will the oil pan gasket hold or will it be brittle and break when pryed apart?

If y'all think a cam is a waste, then I'll throw this together taking advantage of a warm front this weekend.

Happy Ho Ho, Dave.

rjohnson442

Just try to get the front of the pan far enough down for the new seal to slip in and be done with it if you're not pulling the motor. A block of wood and hammer hit from the top lip help get the pop you need to free it up. New pan gaskets are a pain with the motor in but can be done. As for the cam I'd say it's up to how much you want to invest into it right now.

Swoopy

Thanks Mr J.
I'll try that pan tip.

yup I figured its a cost ratio as well as a performance aspect.
just trying to figure how much of a performance benefit.

another question, since the Radiator is out and fluids will be changed, will it do any damage to drain the block using the side plugs by motor mounts? my worry is that if I empty the antifreeze, the remaining fluid may freeze when temps drop sustained below freezing?

I'm not sure and leaning to no as as there will be nothing to freeze and the fluid is antifreeze, but don't want to take a chance.

Happy holidays all.

Professur

A quart of prestone will freeze faster than a gallon, that's true .. but one of the unsung properties of antifreeze is that if and when it does freeze, it doesn't expand the way water does ... that keeps your engine and plumbing safe.

Swoopy

Thanks Professur.
So you say no worries go ahead and drain.

Can't wait to see what comes out!

Cam, intake, headers worth 30hp or more perhaps? have all but cam and weighing potential benefit of new cam over stock 2 barrel cam.

Merry holidays, Dave.

Swoopy

Well, did more research. The time, effort and cost of adding perhaps 15 to 20 more horse is not worth the squeeze. I'll save the funds for the 425 build. The recent big toro build across the pond thread made me look at my 425 pistons, all have the "V" notch so that build will be worth the squeeze.

going to button this up tomorrow.

Installing intake will be easier without distributor, so how hard to remove and install correctly?

Also the intake kit came with a distributor gasket, is it required or a toss out like the rubber end seals.

Oh, Drained the block. Set a funnel to send fluid to pan under the drain hole and the drivers side shot out 2 feet in a steady stream! Wasn't ready for that!

passenger side had prostate trouble like flow. had to open it up a bit but still didn't flow like drivers, wow. Still amazed at the flow of fluid.

Thanks for advice, Dave.

MDchanic

The distributor is easy:

• Keep track of where the rotor is pointed when fully installed, AND when almost fully removed (it will move)
• DO NOT turn engine after removing distributor
• Reinstall with rotor pointing in the direction it pointed in when almost removed, then make sure it points the way it should when fully installed.

Oldsmobiles have a distributor O-ring, not a gasket. If there is a gasket in your kit, it is for a different engine.

- Eric

Swoopy

Thanks Eric, remove noting position. Got it.
Gasket matches perfectly, not sure about O-ring. I'll check.
hopefully the oil pan gasket tip works, otherwise it will go on hold if gasket breaks.

75 degrees here in MD! looking at the snow and ice, yuck the north and central can have it all! I can empathize, though. hate the white stuff.

Merry Christmas all.

MDchanic

Also, in case of future confusion, if you set your engine to TDC #1 on compression before you remove the distributor, you can get back to where you were if something has to be moved.

- Eric

Swoopy

All went well, front cover and intake installed.
The front cover was a PITA!
I still question if it is installed correctly.
I put gasket sealer on the half round seal both sides and in hind sight should have applied grease to the part of seal that contacts oil pan.
grease would have helped slide it in perhaps. The dowel pins made it tough, should have filed them as a few suggested.

Timing must have been off as prior to removal of old gears and chain, the timing mark was advanced to say 16 to 18 degrees as it was way ahead of the timimg tab 12 degree mark.

After new gears and chain, installed balancer and to my surprise, timing mark lined up to like 1 degree before 0 degrees almost dead on!

Distributor was cake. Thanks Eric, it made it a lot easier to place intake with it out.

Marked where it was and just had to set back in a couple of times till it hit the mark. The flat gasket in the intake kit is a flat paper like 1/4 round same diameter as distributor base. Since it was not there as original and as Eric suggested, I left it out. Just greased the square "O" ring. makes sense to leave out as turning the distributor while base is slightly tight would be a PITA.

Temps have dropped and waiting for gasket sealer to cure.

Not a bad job overall, just front cover to oil pan was tough.

Thanks to all for assistance.

Merry Christmas all, back to egg nog and gifts!

Dave.

MDchanic

Glad it went together well.

Merry Christmas!

- Eric