GEARMAN69

If it has 7.9:1 with the 8's and dish pistons and a stock 186/200 @ 050 cam it only gets better from there..lol

67 Cutlass Freak

IMHO you have two choices:
1) Drive it the way it is, and start building a better performance engine from the ground up.
2) Get your compression up, and a better flowing set of heads. If you can find a set of #3's, or 4's, that would be ideal.
The combustion chamber is 64CCs on those, and you would not have to mill them as much. Go with bigger valves like 2.07" intake, 1.68" exhaust. Do a nice bowl blend, good valve job and you would be real happy with the performance gains. You may need to step up to a 750 CFM carb to take advantage of the aditional flow. Talk to Mark (CutlassEFI), about a cam upgrade for the better flowing heads and increased compression ratio. If you decide to raise the roof on the intake ports, you will want to go with the RPM Performer intake, but the regular Performer will be fine for the street, with smaller runners.
I know that money is a factor for everyone. Over the next couple months, if everything works out, there will be a new option for everyone in the Olds community, for performance oriented, stock replacement, cast iron cylinder head. That's all I can say for now. Plans are in the works.

455man

I like the sounds of this!

coppercutlass

I'm actually doing what 67cutlass freak mentioned. I'm picking up a 73 350 with low miles. I'm going to freshen it up and I just lined up a deal to pick up a set of 67 330 heads . All together I'm spending 150 in cores. The heads will need a fresehning up they where also from a low mileage engine. With shim gaskets my compression will be a little over 9 to 1 . Mild cam edelbrock intake and it will be a nice little street cruiser for when I'm between engines lol. Essentially the same engine that was in the car in the video I posted but I'm going with a slightly bigger cam and possibly doing bbo intake valves on the heads.

76olds

Thanks for all the input guys its much appreciated !!! I look forward to hearing what comes of this in the next few months 67cutlass freak.
Cheers
Eric

80 Rocket

What you need is compression and a cam. An RPM intake would be the way to go as well. I say that because it is a much better intake suited for higher RPMs. With a smaller cubic inch motor, I prefer to maximize it with HP.

With that being said, you need to know what you have for pistons in there. Compression is king for the street. If you aren't at 9.5:1, you are leaving HP/TQ on the table.

With little effort, and almost $2000 (oil pan to carb), I took a 3450lb car to 13.02 @ 104mph in the 1/4 mile being totally streetable with a completely stock bottom end. The heads were small valve #7 heads that were milled .060, and netted about 9:1 compression. The valve job was nothing to write home about, but it was a 3 angle valve job applied as carefully as it could be retaining the stock valve seat size.

The cam was a 318A3 Lunati hydraulic flat tappet cam which was 221/230 @ .050 and .485 lift on both intake and exhaust. I had a 3.73 gear with a 200-4R trans and a 2200 stall stock type converter. The converter I had definitely left more on the table.

The engine put out around 300hp and was fun to drive. Never street raced, but some punk kid with an evo pissed me off next to me at a stop light and I had to show him what a small block Olds can do. When we got to the next stop light he wanted to talk to me.......he yelled "you got a cam in that thing?"......I said, "yup, they all have cams in them, thats how the valves open and close".

Your goals are too modest. But your goals hinge on compression. For $3000 I will send that engine I was speaking of. Although, it will be fresh, with bigger valves installed in the heads. I have all the parts for it (and I will assemble it), and have already done the valve job myself on the heads, with new 2.00/1.625 valves. You would just need to buy an RPM intake for it.

But, I don't know if you need to buy my engine to meet your goals. A thoughtfully built 350 using your current powerplant will achieve your goals.........provided you can get compression. That all depends on your pistons.

The older I get, the more I realize how easy it is to make modest HP. Especially with the breakthroughs in engine technology the past 10 years. With the camshaft profiles, valve seat configurations, ring packs, combustion chamber shapes......HP is more readily available. However, with an Oldsmobile head that is very early 60s engineering, we have to look at things in a slightly different perspective. Nonetheless, 300HP out of a 350 cubic inch motor is easy if you have a well thought out plan. Good luck to you, and if I can help, let me know!

80 Rocket

ps- I am a small block guy at heart......everything I have built for myself has been a small block. Hopefully I don't get too much flak, but I built a small block chevy for my dragster that went 8.48 @ 155 in the 1/4 mile. It was easy with the parts available, and the motor could be transplanted into a street car no problem, plus it only cost me $4300 intake to pan with all new forged internals......including machine work.

The 385 SBC was 385" and I believe an Olds small block of the same cubic inch displacement could be built for around $7000 and match or beat what I did with that SBC, utilizing factory Olds heads. The more I think about it, the more I think a $7000 budget can definitely beat that.

Macadoo

Just out of curiosity 80 Rocket, what pistons would recommend for a '71 350 with stock #7 heads? Would just milling the heads see much compression gain in an 8.5:1 motor? Did you say 9:1 by milling .060? Is that the milling limit?

coppercutlass

mac if you zero deck the block use an .011 shim head gasket and get true 64 cc's from your cylinder heads by milling them you will be at 9 to 1 compression with your stock 23 cc dished pistons. If you mill your heads say .060 and they are at appx. 58 cc's and keep the stock deck height which appx will put your pistons .025 to .035 in the cylinder you will be in the 8.9 range on the low side and 9 to 1 on the high side. according to the mondello book every .006 cut is equal to 1 cc so you gut it .060 that's minus 10 cc's . That's just some quickie figures. .060 is the safe range .

brownbomber77

That's a lot to cut off....I cut a set of #3's for my brothers '77 350 and cutting them .040 using a Corteco gasket at .027 yielded difficulty getting the intake bolts in.

coppercutlass

That's because if you cut the heads you need to cut the intake side aswell or mill the intake manifold. I had to do that when I cut my heads .024 I had to have the intake milled.

76olds

Hey Mac, from what I understand.... Milling our heads with some bowl work, a decent set of pistons are under a grand. A decent cam in inexpensive as well. Machining is no where near as expensive as it was years ago. High speed mills with exceptional carbide inserts can rip through .06 in minutes. Then a quick surface grind clean -up. I think this is the way to go rather than a complete build for weekend fun. Just have to figure out some numbers with what we currently have then we know what we can machine down to.
Its not always about the $$$ its about getting something for a fair price, I don't see why Oldsmobile build's have to be that expensive, The costs are a bit crazy given the leaps in machining techniques and the part prices IMO.
Getting some very good insight here myself I have to thank all the guys that have posted here!!!
Cheers
Eric

coppercutlass

The thing is machining ain't cheap. Sure new set of pistons is a little over 500 but the block work alone will run you between 400 to 500 , then balancing and crank grinding will run you another 350 to 400 , then you still need parts for the short block , then they cylinder heads . Its easy to be well over 3500 all said and done a simple rebuild you do your self. You wanna do a fun little build using stock stuff and combining the right parts then it will be a cheaper but it all comes down to taste. Some guys would cringe at a build like that but if you find good enough cores there is no reason you can build a nice little engine. The video I posted with my 9 to 1 350 in my 72 that engine was by far the most reliable engine ever. I could drive it anywhere , drive it to the track run 13.8's through the exhaust and drive back home and not have to turn a damn wrench. It was built with stock stuff pretty much with the exeption of having a mild cam and performer intake. Its now in my dads pontiac .

80 Rocket

The '71 and '72 350 engines had deeper dish pistons. I believe they were around 20cc's. You can't really get 9:1 by just milling the heads. I'd prefer not to mill the deck because it is another added expense.

I like the 73-76 short blocks. They have the 14cc dish pistons, and are very plentiful, plus they barely made any power from the factory so they should be in good shape (well, as good as you could expect a 40 year old motor to be).

Please note that I am not talking performance rebuilds here. While the recipes I talk about add performance, don't expect over 100,000 miles out of this stuff. There is no replacement for proper machine work and proper parts selections.

But, if you want to have fun with this stuff, simply using old stock junk (provided it is not wore out) can be enough to power a car into the low 13s/high 12s with 350 cubic inches in a 3500lb car.

Back to the subject of '71 and '72 motors......I thought they were more like 8.2:1 from the factory. But they achieved that by using the factory .017" steel shim head gasket. Simply changing out a head gasket on this motor will put you into the 7s since the standard Fel Pro is .039" thick. It all has to do with the pistons having the deeper dish.

Milling the heads .060, provided they started off around the standard 69cc's, will get you down to 59cc's........which will yield 8.6:1 with the .039 Fel Pro head gasket. The .028 Corteco head gasket is not around anymore, except I believe Rocket Racing sells them if you really want it, but it is a special run to have them made so they are a bit expensive. Using a steel shim factory gasket without at least touching up the deck surfaces on the block is a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

I would not zero deck the block and use a .017 steel shim head gasket. That clearance between the piston and head is a bit too close for comfort. You have to realize that with the stack up of tolerances, not every piston will be flush with the deck, you could have a .010" variance between piston to deck clearances (possibly more, especially if rods were resized by an incompetent shop). Besides, when using 40 year old pistons in a semi-wore out bore, some piston rock could mean your piston is going to kiss the head.

80 Rocket

As far as milling limits, I have been told anything past .060 is hit or miss. I am going to be investigating that a little further. The intake usually has to be cut for fitment, or if it doesn't need too much milling, you could do the head intake mating surface as well. You have to be careful not to take too much off of the head intake mating surface otherwise you might take too much off of the valve cover rail and might have leaking issues.

Taking it off the head allows you you to bolt different intakes to the heads as well, and does not make your intake only good for the set of heads it was milled to.

80 Rocket

Another thing to consider when milling the heads is that if you are using stock rocker arms yet, you will need to shim the pedestals.

I use this tool to check the lifter preload when using stock rockers:
http://www.eastcoasttoolsma.com/inde...2e4ace7ef9e825

I put the wire gauge in between the retaining clip and pushrod cup in the lifter. I shoot for .020"-.040" clearance. When you shim the pedestals, use the same thickness under both pedestals.

coppercutlass

There is no way around those huge dishes for the most part. I think they are actually 23 cc's . I think the shim gaskets smitty sells are .011. Macadoo do you remember the thickness of the head gaskets if I remembered correct you bought them from smitty on your engine project. That's what I plan on running as well on my set up I'm planning out now.

80 Rocket

The cheap aftermarket cast replacement pistons are around 23ccs, and are usually short on compression height as well. The factory dished pistons in 71-72 were 20ccs. Also, the lower compression engines prior to those years sported those pistons as well.

I don't know what Smitty sells, but the factory shims were .017" from the factory. If Smitty chimes in, I am curious as to what he recommends for a surface finish with those .011 gaskets. Those sound like a great way to get some compression. And Smitty, hope you are feeling better!

coppercutlass

For years all I ever read was 23 cc's or so I think that's what I've seen over the years and that's what's been thrown out there. Not arguing I just always thought it was 23 so that's news to me. I plan on having my block decked just to square things up and make sure I get a good sealing surface. For 100 bucks its a no brainer. I once picked up a core and it had after market low comp pistons. If I remember correct they where .045 + in the cylinder.

captjim

Bad advice, IMO, no way you want the piston to head clearance at .011. No way. Unless your machining is perfect, you are going to smack something.

coppercutlass

Jim I never told him to do it I said if. I did not say this is what you should do. I agree leaving it at zero is not what you want. Then I also explained about milling the heads which is probably the best way to go about it . Less things going to the machine shop.

captjim

The title of this thread is "advice on a 350 build" why suggest something that is not a good idea? All it does is confuse people. Most builders I know like to stick to .035 piston to head, especially on a performance build

Also, regarding the shim gaskets. These have a very narrow margin for error, your stull needs to be straight, flat, and surfaced correctly for them to work. Personally, I would use a conventional gasket and keep my .040 piston to head. Use piston choice and chamber volume to get my desired CR.

80 Rocket

I think you are misunderstanding what me and Jim were saying. Cost aside, you can zero deck a block, that's not the issue. The issue comes in using a very thin head gasket and having you piston to head clearance too tight.

I would definitely keep piston to head at a minimum of .040 with stock rods/pistons. Piston to head clearance is simply taking your head gasket thickness and adding it to your piston to deck clearance.

If you got .025" piston to deck, and an .011" head gasket, you are at .036". If you are zero decked, with a .039" gasket, you are at .039". Most stock Olds engines seem to be around .020-.030 piston to deck from what I have seen.

So, at the end of the day, you are simply not going to get 9:1 compression with a 20cc dished piston. So, either get different pistons, or just be ok with 8.6:1 compression or so. The .4 difference will not be a monumental difference in power all things being equal, but having a bit more compression might step you up to a hotter cam (and that cam will make more power because the engine has the compression to utilize it), it might mean you can for for the RPM Edelbrock intake as opposed to the regular Performer.

An engine is not simply something you say, I want this cam, these heads, these pistons, and this intake. The engine specs determine what the engine needs, no matter how much of us want to tell the engine it could use the hotter cam, or fancy hi-rise intake. The engine specs will also prove you are an idiot when you are scratching your head over that slow ET slip. The basic physics of the internal combustion engine do not lie.

The more I play with engines, the more I know, and the more I am in awe of them and how they work. It really is a sight to behold in how many things are all working in unison to make power, and it is rewarding to maximize a combination.

You see, that's the thing, if everyone spent their time on maximizing things, you could have more horsepower. A lot of times, a hotter cam is not necessary, it might need some more timing. Or, you put that hot cam with hi-rise intake on it, and now it don't run for shyt........do you have enough compression? You have an almost stock motor (a little hotter on compression, and an RV cam) but you put that 850 double pumper on it and it won't even idle....more carburetor cfm means nothing if your heads flow for crap and you have a max RPM of 5500 with your cam. You decided to go with some Edelbrock heads when a factory set (the set already on your car) with big valves and a bowl blend would have been more cost effective.

I hope you all enjoy reading my posts as I enjoy writing them......kinda gets me thinking about stuff!

coppercutlass

No I know what you guys are saying about the clearance. I just don't have the patience to type out that many words lol. Cost aside and all that I know if there is not enough clearance you will hit stuff. I sometimes can be incomplete with my post's as I get ahead of myself.

Macadoo

.011 Compressed IIRC. I used copper spray on the gaskets. It's been about 2k miles and so far no issues.

As for increasing compression; I think I'll start looking for a 3.42:1 rear instead. I can fry the tires just fine with my build

[Other other] Eric, good luck with your decision. If it were me, I'd look for a core (350 or 455) and take my time with a new build while driving the hell out of what I got Take a year or two and make it that badarss power plant you always wanted.

80 Rocket

I could type all day. Hell, I should write a book.

"How to Build & Modify Stock Junk in your Oldsmobiles" by 80 Rocket

Chapter 1: How to buy a small block Chevy

Chapter 2: How to remove your small block Chevy because you got taunted on Olds boards

Chapter 3: You just got to be a little smarter than your engine

Chapter 4: Compression is King

Chapter 5: How to port your own heads (guest writer: Cutlass Freak)

Chapter 6: How to send your heads in to fix your porting after you nicked the seats and went too far and struck water because you thought you knew better then Cutlass Freak in the previous chapter

Chapter 7: You just got to be a little smarter than your engine

Chapter 8: Fun with blueprinting to .0001"

Chapter 9: How to break in your motor

Chapter 10: Emergency burn treatments

Chapter 11: How to replace your cam in-car after you improperly broke it in

Chapter 12: How to break in your motor vol. 2 (includes how not to burn yourself)

76olds

Thanks Mac, Ah yes decisions, decisions!!! I think you will be very happy with the rear gears. Best bang for the $$$$. I purchased mine from (Monzaz) Jim, he also helped out with the shipping to Canada great guy to deal with . It sounds like that's really all you need for a bit more seat of the pants performance.
Cheers
Eric

76olds

Copper, We all know you mean well !!! You nailed it when I first came to CO and you mention to put 3:42 rear gears in my car. You have always given me good advice. I enjoy reading your posts even if they are not bang on. Other's always chime in and correct the " ahead of yourself stuff" No ill thoughts or worries on my side here. Keep your posts coming buddy.
Cheers
Eric

Macadoo

x2

67 Cutlass Freak

Eric, this thread has become pretty entertaining. These guys have given some pretty good advice. Seems like we are all wanting more performance, which usually means more compression. An engine that features well matched components is essential. Everybody seems to want to keep their bottom end together and mill the heads or swap them to get better performance. Sometimes this isn't the best plan. Our stock rods and pistons really hold us back. They are the heavy weak link. Generally when I build an engine, I will have a complete game plan for my engine from top to bottom. I will build it in two stages, by starting with the short block. The last small block engine I built had custom pistons designed for use with BB heads. I went with the stock rods - polished, notched, bushed, shot peened, balanced, steel crank, & a 5 main Halo. I had close to $6500 in it. To do it all over again, I think I would build a stroker with aftermarket rods and get the compression ratio up there that way. If you can find a good running long block that already is set up with higher compression that would be a good idea. If you did that, you could always build a nice set of heads to use on either motor. You could be like Coppercutlass and have 2 back up motors. He must be hard on ****. The SB stuff seems to be readily available for reasonable pricing. Seems everybody is switching over to the BB. You're probably well aware of ROP, but anyway they have a Builds/ Combo section, that might give you some ideas of what other guys are doing and what their performance levels are. Take these builds with a grain of salt, some of the numbers may be inflated.
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/fo...2a3509e4193269
Finally Eric, I hate it when somebody sais they want to go fast, still have good gas mileage, not go too deep into their engine, and not go too deep into their pockets. I'm not saying this is you, but I don't think it's possible to have it all.

coppercutlass

Don't take pitty on me lol. I know I sometimes sound like an idiot lol. That's all fine though guys. I'm not claiming to know it all. 80 rocket you forgot to add the chapter where you don't burn yourself while breaking in the cam lol. God my current build has had so many dumb pit falls like the crappy head gaskets that did not survive the winter and then the cam that had all kinds of run out. Some crap you can't avoid.

coppercutlass

67cutlassfreak its a combination of beating the crap of really old stuff. My current 355 so far is the biggest moneypit at 4k

80 Rocket

We're all learning here buddy, nobody is getting on you. Well, i ain't.

See above, I revised the chapters.

FMB42

This is an interesting and (for me) timely thread. I ran the $ numbers on a very mild 455/400 trans upgrade on my recently purchased '70 F85 and quickly ran out of money. Ran the $ numbers on a mild 350 SBO/350 build and still ran out of money. So, I'm going to stick with some minor upgrades on the original 350 2V SBO/350 trans and just drive it for now. Besides, doing this will free up money for more important stuff like braking and handling.

Macadoo

Well that leaves me out

coppercutlass

I will say this. With having the most money I have ever put into an engine I have been very careful at every step with my current 355 probably the most confident I have been with a build. I learned a lot with my previous builds but they where low buck even my current 355 where I tried to stay in a low budget it got expensive fast. my prevous 350 was similar to 80 rocket's the thing that held me back was the fact I was running a small carb and tight converter the th400 will eat up hp in a small block as well. I try to keep things cheap because I'm still learning and if I breaks well you salvage what's good and build another one. I'm not affraid to work and I got time to spare. I know some guys don't . I'm building back ups because building a engine takes time and if something happens I want one that will drop in and be ready to go.

80 Rocket

Read chapter 3 then!

Macadoo

Lol!

76olds

I agree Dave, Cheers to everyone here!!! The guys that want it all without wanting to pay isn't cool at all. I certainly would never want to take more than I would be entitled to in a build, I realize everyone wants to make $$$ bottom line. It would be nice to get a deal and save a little money for sure. I think more guys would bite if the prices came down a bit.
Cheers
Eric