76olds

Hey guys,I really can't get to the $$$ amount that a 455 build would cost,Given that I don't drive my olds anuf to warrant such a big investment, I would like some input on my current 350, I've decided to keep the motor I have in it and try to do a mild build. I have shorty headmans, with Edlb,performer intake, 600 performer carb, tuned well. The motor was refreshed a few years ago with unknown specs. So what I have done last year.. 3:42 rear posi, rebuild 350 trans with saturday night special T/C with shift kit. I would like to get some insight on what I could do with the # 8 heads, along with inside the motor. I don't want to spend a ton of cash on it if possible. I will only cruising with this car on nice weekends. I would like 300hp but considering the upgrades I have done, I likely only have about 200 hp max. Could anyone steer me in the direction to go with this ? Decent pistons, cam , rods, head work etc. I would much appreciate it . If the resident engine builders would like to PM a realistic price with a built core that would accommodate the current intake carb and headers crated and shipped to Canada I would definitely take it into consideration.
Thanks
Eric

Macadoo

I'll be anxious to hear the replies. I'm with you Eric, the Edel intake, cam, shorties didn't give me as much bang as I had hoped for.
My guess is that you need to raise the compression and replace those heads with aluminum.
How's that 3:42/TH350 combo? How are the RPMs on the interstate?

brownbomber77

Get heads with smaller combustion chambers like #3 or #4 from the 330's. I've got a set I'm putting big valves into in Illinois, but I'm not sure I'd like to imagine the shipping to Canada... You're dropping 15 er so CC just from changing the heads instead of messing with the 80cc of the #8's.

76olds

Hey Mac , The 3:42 gears helped out a whole lot, I haven't a tach so I don't really know the RPM'S to give you a solid number, It's really not to bad on the highway with them if I keep it under 80mph. I didn't feel any gains with the T/C ( well nothing really noticeable just cost lol) I get rubber periodically lol, when the car feels up to it I guess. More so on a hard right or left turn nothing straight off the line. I got more rubber out of second prior to the T/C swap it seems, but better with hard left or right turns mashing it. I think 300-325 horse should be more than anuff without serious costs but we will see. I hope to get some good info here so it helps you out as well.
Cheers
Mac
@ brownbomber, thanks for the info, once I get a little more info on what would work well together, I may take you up on the offer with shipping in need be. I would like to try and be a little conservative with costs at this point.
Thanks
Eric

coppercutlass

if you bottom end is in good shape and it has the 14 cc dished pistons find some #6 or 7's pre 1973 heads mill them a bit to get them to 66 cc's then use a shim head gasket. that will net you some useable compression to run a decent cam. The big picture is your budget . how do you want to build it what would you like to replace what needs to be replaced whats worn with out really having an engine that's torn apart its a toss up. My current 355 scrounging good used parts and having the heads rebuilt cost me around 3700 that's not including the repairs that a bad cam shaft caused even then it would be around 4200 with that included. You really should do a mild 455 for that tank of a car to be honest the 350 would be very tame and have t work wice as hard to get ay moving. maybe you should find a nice 455 core and re ring it do a nice towing cam , just a plain jane rebuild on the heads and I bet the torque alone would be a world of difference. the problem with the sbo is you need better heads or a new pistons to make decent compression. a core 455 would be a good investment in my opinion specially with that tank you drive lol. even a nice 8.5 to 1 455 with a towing cam would pack a very serious punch. You don't need aluminum heads to be honest the combination has to work I had a very mild 9 to 1 combo using a 73 350 with 72 heads everything was freshened up , I used a comp 260h cam , edelbrock intake , full length headers , 600 cfm carb 3.73 gears with a th400 and a 2200 stall . It ran 13.86 in full street trim.


here it is it ran 13.7's with the fiberglass parts.

76olds

Thanks for the info copper, much appreciated. I realize the 455 would be the best way to go for my land y... aught without a doubt. Having said that I have put out too much $$ already for the ceramic headers, intake, miscellaneous parts that my wife would kill me if I have to buy all newer stuff, she allowed me to purchase 2 G8's just recently as well in which she gave me the go ahead on transplanting mine with the 6.2 G8 GXP set-up this winter. So given my cutlass runs decent without issues I could get likely get away with a few grand on it performance wise nothing crazy 300hp should be much better than the possible 200hp I currently have . I'm thinking to put a set of 3:73 in a taking the 3:42 out this spring to give it a little more off the line . Hoping I could do a mild build with what I have, pull the motor , new pistons, cam, refurbish the heads or decent used set reworked as brownbomber77 suggested, other stuff down deep just not sure but if I could replace lower stuff reasonably while its out I would .
Thanks again
Eric

coppercutlass

if you decide to do new pistons then I would go with the probe pistons , deck the block to have the pistons sit .010 in the cylinders , have the machine shop check your rods and resize if needed , balance it and all that good stuff. It will run you around 2k just for the short block with parts and machining. the cam comes down to what you want im sure you will talk to someone you trust to pick it or make you a grind. I usually pick mine from a catalog. Your heads are the biggest weak link because although the are similar to other sbo heads they have more restrictions under the valve and the combustion chambers are huge like 79 cc's with nmilling your heads to say 75 cc's with a .028 head gasket and having the pistons .010 in the cylinder your compression will be 9.1 to 1 that same short block with #7's or 6's anything pre 73 with appx 68cc your compression will be 9.8 to1 and you can run a cam that will make more power. as for the heads I would just have the bowls cleaned up (area under the valve) fill the heat riser and make the exhaust divider flush. so lets say you will have appx 2k into the short block then lets say you put 700 into a set of iron heads with bigger valves you are looking to be in the 3k range . now you could buy the pro comp aluminum heads although the price is nice there is gear you have to run with them like new head bolts , rocker studs for roller rockers electric fuel pump etc etc. so your 1k procomps turn out to be over 1400. just some food for though my figures might be low or possibly high they are just rough figures. my short blocks always run around 2k to build the heads usually 1k then all the misc. stuff.

coppercutlass

Im actually going to be building a nice little 350 this winter like whats been mentioned . I bought a short block for 70 bucks with very low miles its has the 14cc dished pistons I think its a 76 . Im doing a nice mild cam and once my current 355 gets the ported heads the #6's that are on it with big valves currently will be going on once I fill the riser and do the divider. It will be very similar to the engine that's in the video I posted. It will be my back up for when something breaks. sweet simple and I don't want a real rowdy engine for a back up

76olds

Thanks copper, I need to make a list of what I really need to do with my block and with a set of #6 heads, The probe pistons .01 and deck block check. Should I go .030 over pistons or more? Heads I understand what I need the shop to do with them if I can find a decent set.
@ Joesw31 I never gave the 403 any thought no, I have come to a point that I have a cap on the $$$ I can put toward my cutlass ( Wife's rules). I've already spend much more on this car than it will ever be worth lol. My wife doesn't know that. However I'm really capped for now given I have another project going on as well.I'm trying to get the most out of what I have with $3-3500.
I need another drink and a note pad lol.... Hold on !!
Cheers
Eric

coppercutlass

that's not a bad budget . You should be able to pull it off imo but you will be doing some of the work yourself like assembly and degreeing the cam and all that fun stuff.

76olds

Rather than pulling the engine apart, would you suggest just dropping a decent set of #6 or 7 heads, steal head gaskets, a cam button it up and I would get me close to 300hp ? Given the fact it has been refreshed with the original pistons and bottom end.
Thanks
Eric

oldcutlass

Why not just drive it the way it is and save your money to do what your original plan was. So what if it takes another year.

olds 307 and 403

If it was bored .030 over, replace the probably 24CC cast replacements with the Probe or Speedo flat tops. Your #8 heads just need bowl work and add the 2" intake valve and a small mill to reach 9 to 1. Add a mild cam and you are there.

Sugar Bear

Do a leak down test on the engine first to determine its' condition first and an oil pressure test. If leak down and oil pressure are excellent you could put smaller cc heads and bump the compression like coppercutlass suggested. This would save $$$$ and time. Does it burn any oil?

76olds

TBH Eric, I 99.9 % sure I'll be in the G8 most of the time after I get it done, Even with the current 256hp V6 in it, its a fun driver. I'm thinking about just making the 76 a reliable occasional summer weekend driver with a few more ponies. I'm not unhappy with it at all considering if I'm lucky I may have up to 200hp with the current changes I made. Just thinking push it to 300 reliable fun hp and call it good. I do see your point.
Cheers
Eric

76olds

[QUOTE=olds 307 and 403;766228]If it was bored .030 over, replace the probably 24CC cast replacements with the Probe or Speedo flat tops. Your #8 heads just need bowl work and add the 2" intake valve and a small mill to reach 9 to 1. Add a mild cam and you are there.[/QUOTE

Great info, I'm not sure if its been bored I do see the thicker head gaskets thou. I would have to pull a head and mic the bore I suppose.

76olds

It doesn't burn oil at all, it performs well given the smog heads etc, I'm pretty sure the engine condition is good, runs surprisingly good for the hp these 76's put out 170ish stock.
Thanks for chiming in
Cheers
Eric

76olds

I would much rather a 350 core built with a decent set of heads that I just have to bolt on my performer intake, 600 cfm carb, headers, starter, water pump, etc up to and be good to go with 300-325 hp, However this isn't possible with the $3k-3500 budget. So I'm taking notes on all the parts I would need to do a decent build. Then send my block and #6 or 7 heads out for machining.
I really would need to figure out all the parts that would work together, I maw replace everything that wouldn't require machining. If you guys could help me out a little on this that would be great. I realize this is asking for alot and many guys have different part choices, I will entertain anyone's input on this regardless of part preferences.
Cheers
Eric

coppercutlass

Like I said my current 355 cost me 3700 and my heads where on the expensive .. I found a 355 with a wiped out cam shaft but the pistons where near new. Intake to oil pan that's where the cost would be. You already have an intake so that will put you right at 3500. Now picking your parts and shopping wisely will also help you. I always look for holiday sales through summit or used parts that can still be used in good shape. My curent 355 saw te machine shop , bored , balanced , all that good stuff . I saved my money on used pistons that where still good.

76olds

Much appreciated copper, over the next few weeks, I'm going to go thru my summit catalogue jotting down some parts and numbers and post them up here when I get them together. At that point I hope to get a little more direction as to what to purchase. I will also search for a decent set of heads as well.
Thanks
Eric

coppercutlass

Fyi there is a set of speed pro flat tops floating around on this forum for sale I think they where posted on the small block section not in the for sale but reasonable price and damn near new. There was also a cam for sale at a good price new. Nice thing about the classifieds is you can knock em down on price. I won't lie if I can't buy a part for the price I want I move on. Specially with sbo parts there is a lot more used sbo stuff than bbo stuff because everyone gives up and goes bbo. I was gonna go bbo and decided not to because I'm too vested in sbo stuff I have spare blocks , heads , pistons , headers , all kinds of stuff . I'm finally getting around to building some of it . For what I wanna do the sbo will work just right.

olds 307 and 403

If it is standard bore, CP makes a piston that only needs a hone job. Lighter and better ring pack, like the Probe pistons. A more efficient design, the Speed Pro's are old school. The #8 heads are good heads, the bowls have a terrible blockage just under the exhaust valve. A bowl hog and minor grinder time will equal early heads. I can show you before and after picks. I would love to do a 3.6 or Hemi swap in our Challenger. I could have bought a G8 GXP for $25,500 when we bought the Challenger.

brownbomber77

I put a set of #3 heads on my brother's '77. It runs on premium now and really woke it up even with the 2.56 gear. If you're not able to invest in a full rebuild, I would just get a set of early heads, cut 'em .030, and put a shim or Corteco brand head gasket on there. That should hold ya over for a fun summer driver. Otherwise....leave it alone if you're strapped for cash. Most guys start this way and then end up digging in twice as much as they intended.

70cutty

Leave it alone and drive it the way it is.

oldsmobiledave

Winner!


If you are not prepared to step up & build a performance engine just drive her.

76olds

Thanks for all the input guys, I'm not prepared to build a max effort 350 at this time, I realize I would be throwing my $$ to the wind with a cheap build that would more than likely not last. I really want something reliable with a little more power. My focus really is on my G8 at this time. I figured I could get away with slapping a few G's on it to push out another hundred horse or so. In any event I will see how much extra cash I've left after the G8 transplant and go from ther.
Thanks for all the input, you guys are great 'put-r-ther'.
Cheers,
Eric

olds 307 and 403

Shipping is around $300 for a pair of iron heads from the States. About half as much within Canada. If you bump compression, go bigger than the generic 204/214 cam. I bumped my compression from 7.9 to 9.5 to 1, very little difference. The heads are milled and ported with W31 valves. I am getting my Qjet custom built this winter and a proper track run will really tell the improvement.

Macadoo

Here's a fun video. A "budget" 350 build.

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episode/...r#.VHPoaovF_kU

coppercutlass

That build is a joke that powerblock did.

76olds

Hey Mac you just going to do your rear gears for now ? Good video , all the parts are listed below, this is a huge time saver for me. This could be the new plan . Thanks for the video post Mac!!!

76olds

I may give a set of heads a shot with a cam, I really don't have much to loose if the bottom end blows up then I would have no choice but to do a complete build. Thanks to you guys I have a few good ideas to kick around. I seen a set of #6 heads up here in Hamilton for $250, the guy that has alot of olds stuff and posts on Kijiji at times. $200 to clean up my #8 heads in Guelph if I go that way. I would need to pick a decent shelf cam and see how she blows if I go that way instead. A few decisions to make for sure along with the powerblock video Mac posted up .
Cheers
Eric

76olds

Copper what are you thoughts on the build ?? Would this not be such a good idea ?

coppercutlass

many guys have made more hp and spent a lot less.

Macadoo

I just like how the builder wants to treat the motor like a piece of art; put it in a museum, lol.
Copper, I'm assuming you're talking about the aluminum heads.

coppercutlass

The heads , the roller cam , and a few other items the used. The heads are great but I think its sad their hp numbers where down. 67cutlassfreak and 80rocket are making 450 appx hp with bbo heads and a hydraulic flat tappet cam.

70cutty

Save your money, enjoy your car the way it is and when ready build a BBO

GEARMAN69

Assuming your shortblock is healthy as it should be (do compression check on all 8) and has dish pistons with #8 heads , the easy thing to do as mentioned already would be to put some small chamber heads on it #5, 6 ,7, 7a some bigger valves and bowl work adds more but just the compression increase will be a big boost on its own. A little cam swap too and get a good Quadrajet on top instead of that little 600.. the rest of your setup sounds good and begging for more compression and cam and Qjet IMO

oldzzy

I also agree since you said it will just be a weekend cruiser

oldsmobiledave

I am a fan of all BBO but he does not need one. A smartly built 403 will be a ton of fun in that car & he wont have to change anything but the engine.

455man

I think you could get close to 300 hp with your engine. Shave the heads, shim head gasket and look at the head porting thread for tips on how to fill the heat crossover, bowl porting and make the exhaust ports flush. A mild cam. The problem everyone else is mentioning is you get used to your horsepower and always want more after a while or it's never as fast as you expected it to be. If you are set on doing this and leaving it I think you will be happy for the budget you have. It will require some work on your part.