copyman

i noticed someone mentioning that the wire going to the coil is a resistor wire....ive taken out the points dist and am installing a hei .....what is the proceedure for changing this wire....if thats what i need to do ...i tried starting up the car and shes back firing and giving me all sorts of problems....its tdc...checked all of that out....can this problem be from the resistor wire..??? HELP...LOL

oldstata

Two things you can trace that wire back and replace with 12gage wire or run a new one from a ignition source.

The back firing could be that your 180 out or out of timing

I would bring the number 1 back to TDC and see if the rotor is pointing to number one wire on the cap double check all wires to insure they are at the correct cylinder

stan 65 cutlass

also the firing order is counterclockwise

BILL DEMMER

the existing resistor wire just may be your problem. don't replace that wire. you can use it to drive a relay(connected to one side of the relay coil) you'll need to install to get full switched 12 volts. use a 12 gauge wire and wire it to the junction block(using either a 25 amp fuse, or a 16 gauge fusible link). that wire will connect to the n.o. contact on the relay, the common(or wiper) contact on the relay is then connected to the hei b+ terminal. finally, ground the other side of the coil on the relay.


bill

copyman

ok...did that ....wiring isgood now....but car runs like crap.....all i did was install a new timing chain kit.....set it up on stock round top on crank...cam 0 at six...matching crank 0 at twelve.....run out of ideas...starts up ..runs like it did when the cam plastic committed suicide.....any idea?

BILL DEMMER

like was mentioned above, check your timing and firing order. then, check for vacuum leaks. are the plugs halfway clean? what did you use for plug wires? is the hei cap good? how about the rotor?

bill

copyman

firing order...good...18436572 counter clockwise....new wires...new plugs...shoot me..
all vacuum lines plugged......(capped)

BILL DEMMER

timing?

oldcutlass

What is your timing set to?

copyman

set to center mark on tab...for my starting point..

copyman

runs out of time....but after checking everything ..it shouldnt..just should fire up and run...olds HAD to put plastic on thier cam gear??? when i opened it up the chain could have been removed with the gears still in there.....also ..checked compression...150 in all but one cylinder 130...

oldcutlass

OK sounds like you have about 5 deg BTDC, not going to work with an HEI. They like around 18. Do you have a dialback timing light?

copyman

no......18 degrees? ...which side of the scale is that (tab)
i can eyeball it. about a quarter of an inch to start with

oldcutlass

You need a dial back timing light because the scale only goes to 10 if I remember right. you can measure and mark the harmonic balance with a chalk or scribe line. and then do it.

copyman

gotcha.....just which side of the tab?? do i go past it....or ??

oldcutlass

Facing the engine, to the left of the timing tab.

copyman

ill try it...thank you

MDchanic

Just to clarify: You never said that you had verified that the rotor points to the #1 terminal at TDC compression for #1 cylinder.

The cam setup you mentioned will get you TDC on #6 cylinder - if you pointed the rotor to #1 at that point, you will be 180° out.

This ain't a Chebby.

- Eric

copyman

hold on.....i noticed that on compression the crank gear 0 is at 12 and the cam gear 0 is at 12.....and im pointing the rotor to number one cylinder......isnt this top dead center?? i used the cam 0 at 6 and the crank 0 at 12 to install the timing chain kit.....

MDchanic

Olds is at TDC #1 compression when marks on crank and cam sprockets are both at 12:00.

Crank at 12:00 and Cam at 6:00 (dots aligned next to each other) is TDC #6 compression, or 180° away from TDC #1 compression.

- Eric

copyman

i agree with you on that....i was just saying to install the timing kit....but for tdc they both are at 12.....i turned the motor over before i installed the timing cover and the rest of the stuff......#1 cylinder brings the marks both to 12 o clock...its jus that it backfires when i try to start it up ....and rotor is pointing to one....and i got the resistor wire off and replaced it with a regular wire...from the firewall .....and i know it goes counter clockwise....so what the hell am i missing..??? im going to run it btdc and see what happens tomorrow...im done..its cold outside...im ready to set fire to the car...and move to florida.....

MDchanic

Okay:

Crank and cam sprockets at 12:00 when rotor is pointing to #1 terminal,
wires attached to cap according to firing order in counterclockwise direction,
HEI connected to a full 12V (may connect directly to battery (+) to be sure),
Fuel in tank,
Fuel lines intact,
Fuel pump working,
Fuel filter not clogged,
Choke operating properly,
Choke pull-off operating properly,
and, finally,
HEI module working properly (can remove and test at a chain auto parts store, I have personally had one bad out of the box).

If all these are good, let me know where you are, and I'll bring the hot dogs and marshmallows, and a book of matches.

- Eric

m371961

Olds wasn't the only maker that did this. Maybe the first?

oldcutlass

Your almost there, don't give up. Just double check your work, ensure the firing order is correct and all parts are good.

olds 307 and 403

Turn the distributor towards the firewall a 1/4 of a turn or till it hits the firewall and try starting it.

edzolz

Did you use the gear and chain set that allows advance or retard timing? If so, are you sure you used the correct corresponding marks when installing the chain and gears? My brother bought a Corvette that the owner had done just that and it ran like crap. We moved the chain and gears to the correct setup and all was well.

Octania

A good reason to always take a photo of the timing set just before putting the cover on. You are correct in setting the timing gears in place. crank dot straight up, and cam dot either straight up for #1 compression or straight down for #6 compression. Sometimes easier to see proper alignment with the cam dot at the bottom.... but note that at the top there is a casting rib that helps you spot the center. Of course, what with the 2:1 drive ratio there, every time the crank dot comes to 12:00, the cam sprocket dot is either at 12:00 or 6:00, then repeat.

Original Poster- you appear to have the firing order
1843
6572
correct. Have you numbered the cylinders correctly
1-3-5-7 front to rear down the LH bank [driver side], and
2-4-6-8 fron to rear RH [passenger] side?
This info is cast into the factory intake manifold, but not typically into aftermarket intakes.



"Turn the distributor towards the firewall a 1/4 of a turn or till it hits the firewall and try starting it."
======================
Really - 1/4 TURN, not 1/4 inch?
1/4 turn on the distributor, having 8 wire positions, is two cylinders. That's a long ways, not just a bit advanced.

copyman

went back to the garage...found the backfire....number 8 cylinder isnt firing....pulled the head off of that side....im going to bring it to a local speed shop and have him check out the valves....something isnt right....the rotor on the dist is pointing to #8 cylinder but its not firing just backfires...
cam opens and closes...watched it...not happy...
seems like im over the head..thanking you for the help so far....you guys are great...

MDchanic

I've still got marshmallows...

- Eric

copyman

this car will be the death of me yet

billmerbach

Been there buddy......it only gets worse.....well at least for me haha

coppercutlass

Ok are you trying to start with the rotor towards the #8 cylinder ? Although an hei does not care where #1 is I found the the 1 on the dist will facing between the #5 and #7 cylinder for me this is where I have always set it up. Olds307and403 mentioned to turn the dist. Until it hits the fire wall. The way I stab the dist with the distributor pegged to the firewall due to vac. Adv. Canister I get 20 initial degree. The on time I tried to fire up an hei setting up #1 else where from where I always set it up I found it hard to fire it up. Not sure if what I posted applies or not but just adding my 2 cents.

copyman

found my problem......lifters are frozen ....no spongey up and down movement....like its a solid lifter.....got a few out to clean them up ...was just wondering....can you put new lifters in a engine with an old cam?

oldcutlass

Yes you can put new lifters in with an old cam. Have you made sure your cam lobes are good?

Octania

if they are full of oil they will be hard.
that's how they work

1 is right next to 8 on the firing order
I think you were just 1/2 cylinder away from being right.

do you know how to set the distributor to fire EXACTLY when #1 is at TDC *compression*? or 10 degrees BTDC or whatever?

I have found that it is possible to have the dist'r installed ONE TOOTH off and then you cannot turn the body far enough either way to get your favorite tower to be #1.

MDchanic

Lifters should be pretty darned hard if they're full of oil, but if you're so inclined, there;s nothing wrong with disassembling and cleaning them all, so long as you don't lose any parts.

- Eric

FMB42

As previously mentioned; (barring other issues) you should be able to get it to run (with minor adjustments) as long as:

#1 cyl is at TDC on the compression stroke. Dist rotor is pointing towards terminal #1 position (which should be clearly marked well before beginning such work).

Compression is good (which it should be according to your tests imo).

It has proper spark and a proper fuel/air mixture.

Other things to double check are, as mentioned earlier; firing order, base ign timing, vacuum leaks, faulty dist rotor/cap, faulty or improperly installed dist, bad ign wires, and/or fouled spark plugs.

Another thing I'll mention is that you, whenever possible, should stick to replacing and/or repairing 1 thing at a time (i.e. replace timing gears, and then test run it followed by installing the HEI dist and test run). This, of course, makes it much easier to troubleshoot when things don't go well.

Hang in there Copyman, you'll get that thing sorted.

Run to Rund

I'd rather soak, disassemble, clean the original lifters, keeping them strictly in order. It is better not to break in new lifters on the old cam if you can avoid it.

m371961

I don't understand. Car was running, had trouble after going to HEI. Was timing chain and gears changed at that time also? Now you are changing lifters?
Are you chasing down and creating problems without finding the root trouble?
Please start at beginning.
Was car running ok before any work?
What were symptoms of the first trouble encountered?
What was done first and then in order list other work.

copyman

car had hei.....ran good...then problems arose...timing chain came to the end of its life.....took off front ....plastic on cam gear in pieces......bought double roller chain for car from cloyes....took off pan...cleaned up pieces of plastic as well as oil pump....made everything nice.....while i had it apart...there was a broken stud on the exhaust manifold bolt to head....figured....let me address that...took off head....noticed that gasket was in pretty bad shape....metal all eaten away ...motor never was apart ...ok...took off other head...ordered head gaskets...put the whole thing back together again....and thats how my problems started.....this was a running engine....i know it runs counter clockwise....timming is right....took off the front again ..and rechecked to see if i was on the money with timing marks....yes...they are right too....and its set at factory ....cloyes has a round dome for factory pointed slot and square slot...to put the crankgear on ....its on the round...ok....and yes i took the lifters apart and cleaned them up ..they were frozen in the up position...now theyre all moving nicely....gonna put it all back together again for the third time.....and hopefully im good....there ..now you have the whole story....