dyeager535

Hello all! Recognize a few names here, but I've never posted. Now is the time. I did a fair bit of searching/reading, but it's never easy to find exactly what you seek.

Car is an '85 Salon, presently carbed 403, "built" 200-4R (Monte SS core, upgraded internals, GN converter), and 3.42 8.5" rear. This will be a street car, so power brakes. No track time expected.

My intent is that sometime in the future, I will build one of the 350's in the garage to drop in it. Parts aren't likely to become more common or cheaper before I actually get to the assembly/install part. I've got a '558 350, and 5, 7, and 7a heads at my disposal. It will be fuel injected (1970's Olds 350 injection rail/intake off a Cadillac) but of course I have more modern injectors/ECM.

My goal is 350-400HP, and if I can run it on 91 octane, I'd be happy. I'm familiar with Chevy's, enough so that I know building an Olds, comparatively, is more challenging in cost and parts availability.

First question is heads. Options I am aware of, within reason for my purpose/budget, are the stock ones...bigger valves, better springs, studs, etc., or Edelbrocks with a LOT of cutting done to them to get decent compression. Edelbrocks are pretty pricey to butcher with a bunch of machine work, and then I'd have to machine the stock intake, which I'd rather not do if I can avoid it. I'm assuming nothing is in the pipeline for a new SBO head, at least that anyone is aware of? Stock heads do seem pretty capable from what I've seen, but I also know revised chambers would do a lot towards tolerating pump gas and still make power.

Pistons/rods are the next one. To get meaningful compression I know flat tops are in order. Forged still/now the only offerings for the SBO rods with flat tops? Are the stock rods to say 6000RPM and 350-400HP going to survive? I know the Chevy 6" rod/400 piston option, is it smarter/cheaper/easier to just go that route than to try and work with the Olds parts? I am setting the 6K RPM limit arbitrarily, but I think it's a fairly realistic number for the power level I'm shooting for. I'm not expecting that 6000RPM will be hit often, but I like freeway on ramps.

Hydraulic roller cams appear to be a bit easier to find for the SBO now than they were last I searched. With injection I feel a roller cams profile is going to be a bit easier to work with. Not necessary, but if the roller cams/lifters out there are quality pieces, I don't mind stepping up to one.

Not much info on them, but does anyone have any idea if the intake will support 350-400HP? Being relatively uncommon I'm going to be surprised if anyone knows for sure, but being a single plane flowing just air, I'm suspecting it's not going to be the weak link.

One of the components I could buy right away (once I check the hub height on the 403 pump) is the water pump. The $115 Flowkooler on summit has a revised impeller it appears, not just a plate anymore, but that price is tough to swallow vs. the less costly ones. I already have a slight overheating issue with the 403, and I might as well make sure the pump is not the weak link. My understanding of the situation is that any of the pumps with a plate over the impeller are a marked improvement over the ones with no plate, but I can't discern WHICH pumps being sold actually have the plates. It sounds like even vendors don't know which pump is which design. Anyone have experience with a pump that has an impeller plate that isn't as pricey as the Flowkooler?

I'm not particularly looking for someone to spoon feed me cam specs, etc., but I would certainly be curious if someone has a fairly new recipe that nets 350-400 out of a SBO, that I could tweak as I need to. I like getting this info online so I can't lose it.

I appreciate any input folks have. I can tell there are at least a few here that have plenty of experience making power out of these motors, I hope they have the time to offer some gentle guidance/slaps in the right direction. Thanks.

boese1978

Your intake manifold will choke off any gains you would have with the heads and block being done. My 350-
Bored and stroked to a 380, chev connecting rods and chev flat top pistons. Pro Comp heads, Edelbrock 7111 intake.

dyeager535

Even being a single plane? I'm assuming the geometry of the (stock) flat intake is problematic for flow, was hoping the single plane, being "dry", would offset the fact that the geometry isn't ideal.

If the intake is going to be my limiting factor, I'm going to need to gain some idea of where the limit is, so I can build up to that.

70cutty

Here is my 350 build, maybe it'll help you decide.

Pistons are SpeedPro 6cc dish .010 in the block
Reconditioned rods, crank turned and chamfered.
Heads are #6, Ferrea big block valves, 4 angle valve job, fully ported, crossover plugged, exhaust divider welder, milled .030, Lunati springs, Comp roller rockers.
Camshaft Lunati custom grind (thank you Mark - Cutlassefi it sounds great runs even better, just what I wanted)
225/231@.050, with .512/.517 lift. 108 LSA, advanced 3 degrees.
Performer RPM, milled and port matched, powder coated black .
Tuff Stuff 100W alternator, powder coated black
Hughes 2500 stall torque converter.
Hooker Ceramic Coated headers.
MSD Ready to Run Distributor
Street Avenger 670cfm carb
TCI High torque starter,
4 row radiator
Transmission completely rebuild with shift kit, B & M heavy duty internals, deep pan, TCI tranny cooler.
3.42 gears.
9.8:1 compression runs on 91 no pinging.
Hope this helps.

dyeager535

Do you have any idea of estimated output of the engine, or did you have a goal you were shooting for? What kind of RPM's do you turn?

Guess I can throw this in there...are there any mini-starters out there that folks recommend/use? Will be using (preferably long tube) headers for the car, that is another component I need to research as well.

cutlassefi

X2.
To be painfully honest that intake is junk. For your combo I'd do the RPM intake, then install bungs if you're headed in that direction.

You have a bunch of bad info, I blame that on the internet. There's good info there and bad as well.
A roller cam has nothing to do with power level, EFI, carb or whatever. It's simply a matter of what grind is best for your build, flat tappet or roller, budget and personal preference.
If it was up to me I put a roller in everything and anything. Based on todays technology I think flat tappets are a dying breed.
And make sure you use a good ECM if you go EFI. If you do you won't need an "EFI" cam or have to make any other concessions.

The Chevy rod/piston combo is a viable option. Parts are cheaper, lighter, stronger and more readily available. Plus they're not 40+ years old.
I'd do the Procomp heads and not look back. Putting 1K+ into irons is a waste of money imo. Especially since the Procomps became available.

If you need any further info let us know, we're here to help.,

67 Cutlass Freak

So far Mark and the others here have given you some good advice. Junk that intake or sell it on Fleabay. There's a couple of other options out there for fuel injection, rather than welding bungs in. Mark is the guy to talk to about EFI or a cam. There are plenty of manufacturer's selling throttle body type set ups that bolt to a carburetor type intake, without doing bungs, that should allow you to reach your goals of 350-400 HP. As far as heads go the ProComps are a real good choice, but upgrades should be done to the valves and springs. If it were me building it, I would build a stroker motor with the Chevy rods and pistons. I hope they built that trans right, because normally they don't hold up too well to 400 HP. Since you have overdrive, you may want to consider a 373 gear in the rear to increase your smiles per mile. We haven't really heard your budget for this build, but if the thought of spending $115 on a water pump is making you cringe, I don't know if you have the mindset for an EFI full rebuild, stroker engine. I have an iron headed 350 race motor that has been performing way beyond our expectations, with one of Mark's cams in it. This was not a street build, but I have close to $6500 into it. If you want to read about it go to page 19 post #737 of the "Home Porting Thread". Trust me, you don't want to read through the hole thread, or your brain will explode-
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...echniques.html

dyeager535

Crap, just lost my entire response. It was not short.

Not questioning experience, which is why I am asking the intake questions. Has someone flowed or used it and seen the limitations? I'd send it somewhere if someone will flow it and that hasn't been done. I had found nothing on it's potential prior to acquisition, so spent a fair bit of time and thought getting the parts together/modified. Plan was to enlarge the throttle openings to match a BBC throttle body, although it appears a worked SBC throttle body would be right near the borderline of supporting ~350CID in the RPM range I'm thinking of. I've got everything but the adapter for the intake to throttle body to make this work on a small block Olds...1227727 ECM, throttle body, CCC Olds distributor, sensors, fuel pump, fuel tank, modified injectors, fuel rails, pressure regulator. There is a certain amount of interest on my end to making this somewhat look like it was made this way. I'm somewhat delusional BTW.

Roller cams...don't they tend to run faster ramp rates which tends to increase vacuum signal compared to flat tappets? Maybe I'm missing something there. I know lack of vacuum can be worked around, just easier to work with it than without it.

Does procomp have a website with info? I can't find anything but older forum posts and a couple of Mondello ebay auctions. Will working a set of 5, 7, or 7a heads to 300+HP capabilities cost upwards of $1000? I haven't had machine work done for a long time, let alone performance work...last I had done were some 4A heads and I think out the door it was $300 to give you an idea how long ago that was.

If looking at cost with machining, for a non-daily driven street car, are the chev parts necessary and worth it vs. just throwing a set of forged flat top SBO pistons in there?

Comment was made about cost. I'm ok with spending money, but I don't have thousands just laying around waiting to dump on a pile of parts. At the same time, I know I need to come up with a plan that ensures all the parts are complimentary, only when I have a plan will I start buying them bit by bit. The $115 flowkooler was an example, but my point is that does anyone have proof that it flows better than the $65 GMB pumps (for instance) with a plate over the impeller? I know machining, R&D, quality materials, etc cost money, but in this case, ~double the cost for an unquantified benefit is hard to justify. If I knew the flowkooler was the best flowing on the market, 20% more flow than the nearest competitor, I can justify the increase in price. Right now all I know is the impeller appears to be a new design, the impeller is anodized an EXTREME(!!!) color, it's aluminum, and it costs double what most pumps considered an upgrade cost.

captjim

There is a BIG difference between 300 HP and 400 HP, which you stated earlier. A valve job, guides, and a clean up mill will run you around $500. New valves another $175 +/- That is with no porting and then you want the crossovers filled and center divider welded. You will be very close to the cost of the Pro-Comps by the time you are finished.

You threw out 350-400 HP as a goal. What do you want from the car? Why 400 HP? You CAN use your intake IMO and have a torquey car with a good throttle response that is fun to drive and runs a high 13, but 400 HP is going to be tough with that intake.

captjim

There really isn't much more cost involved. You get a MUCH better piston with a better ring pack, new rods (none are really offered for a SBO, so you will spend $225 or so to recondition and re-size ) for about the same $, maybe a tad more. If you want to stroke it, you gain 20 extra cubes for around $250 more along with more torque.

cutlassefi

Like Jim said, I think maybe you need to take a step back and really think about what it is you want, what you'll settle for, and what you won't settle for.
Do it right the first time and you'll save money over doing it cheaper the first time, then having to do it again.
And unless you keep the build parameters somewhat close to the calibration of that ECM you'll need to have another chip burned etc. Then it's trial and error from there.

Bernhard

If you wan't to run 91 pump gas why not stay with the 403?l
The 403 is great street engine, look up Dr Dan 403 builds on RealOldsPower in the engine build section.

dyeager535

Yes I pretty much accidentally threw out 300HP, 350 is probably the minimum I should be shooting for, and more than that is obviously better. Sounds like the Chev parts will make attaining that goal easier, IF the intake will support it.

I want the car to be quick, but still enjoyable to drive around both long and short distances, that's about all I can ask for.

I'm already burning chips for the MAF TPI in my truck with Vortec heads, roller cam, headers, etc., tuning isn't a factor other than a learning curve of dealing with a motor that is made with upper end more in mind than lower end, and is MAP vs. MAF. But in reality, for the setup I'm going to use, the MAF is the bastard child anyway, MAP is the one that has more support. And I know there are plenty running it with pretty wild motors.

I've got two 350's sitting in the garage, I'd prefer to use what I can build at my leisure.

Going fast and keeping a motor together costs money. If the procomps make more sense, I'll go with them. If the flowkooler makes more sense, I'll go with it. If the Chev parts make more sense, I'll go with them. I'm gathering info so I can make my decisions. As in, I'm not going to tolerate a car that overheats if I have to sit in traffic for 10 minutes, and I'm not going to be happy with my results if I don't get the most out of it I can afford. I'll spend as much as I can justify. But as of right now, as a for instance, I don't even know what the procomps cost. I know that even without some critical work being done, the stock heads will take $675 (or so). I can't just say "ok, I'm going with procomps" if I don't know what issues they may cause, or what their cost is. I can't say "ok, guess I'm going to need to work with an Edelbrock" if I don't know what the EFI single plane will support for power. If I wanted cheap, I'd throw a chev motor in there, but that isn't happening.

That may sound like I have a poor attitude, but far from it. If I was dealing with building a 350 Chevy, I could google 400HP chevy 350 build and come up with 10+ build recipes, I'd easily find flow numbers, I'd see 200+ sets of heads on summit, etc. With the Olds, I know the data (and parts) are much more sparse, and more expensive. I'm ok with that, but as a community it appears Olds people have to rely on one another more than huge vendors and manufacturers for information. Like I said...if I google procomp, I find nothing but 2-3 year old forum posts about them, which means nothing as far as I'm concerned, since things change so rapidly today. They could have all sorts of improvements or differences now than back then. I have no way of knowing.

cutlassefi

If you want a proven recipe for a solid 375-400 hp, 400+lbft of torque then here it is;

Procomp heads (about $1100.00 from Bernard Mondello)
Offset ground crank $250.00
Chevy I beam rods $275.00
Chevy 400 pistons $300.00 for Hypereutectics, $500.00 for forged. 10.0:1 compression.
Cam in the 220@.050 range
RPM intake
750 Quick Fuel Slayer carb.

And you may be able to burn chips on your own but I'd like to know how you maximize the air/fuel ratios throughout without active feedback from a wideband O2. What you're doing is a Band-Aid. I'm not saying they don't run alright, but I'll bet a days pay they would run much better with a more tunable system.
Ditch the idea of the factory EFI intake without major major work. Otherwise it'll continue to be the bottle neck in your build.

Jmo.

captjim

I agree, you are not going to get there with that. If you want a quick little 14 second runner, sure.

dyeager535

I may very well invest in the WBO2 and controller, haven't felt the need yet, but thus far I've not needed to eek out every ft-lb out of my setup. No question it's a requirement if you are going to get fueling absolutely right, and when I get to the point of firing up this motor, I will most likely buy it and the controller. By then they will probably have come down in price even more! Not really sure what limitations you are referring to, I can't run an "E" trans, and it's not sequential, but outside of those I don't think the system is very limiting.

Admitting I know little about intakes besides dual and single plane, what is the limitation on the stock FI intake? If the ports match up with the head, and the throttle body can flow enough to support the engine, where do the limitations come in? Is it strictly because the stock intake sits so low the path to the cylinders is nowhere near straight?

I appreciate all the figures for sure, that makes things pretty clear. I'll check into the procomp heads from the sources mentioned.

Edit: Came back to look at the parts recommendation, and couldn't let this one lie. While a WBO2 ensures you are able to look at fueling under WOT, I don't consider it a "band aid" to use the narrowband to tune. It may be limiting, and doesn't tell me if I'm at 12:1 or 13:1 (and it's easy to change fueling and note changes), but it's not like it's worthless. While accurate only at 14.7:1, using it to ensure you don't go lean under WOT is perfectly acceptable, and under closed loop cruise/idle, a WBO2 is unnecessary for tuning. It may be a trick gadget, but except open loop/WOT, the wideband will show crossover just like the narrowband, which makes it no more effective for tuning.

And what "more tunable system" is there? Have you spent time tuning GM OBD1 EFI? Go download TunerPro RT, grab an APYP bin, which is fairly basic compared to the later MAP bins, and a decent XDF. Well over 150 parameters to work within, and that isn't counting each table (like spark advance, with 204 cells) and the respective "tunable" cells within it.

What "hobbyist" EFI system out there has more capability to tune than the GM multiport? I'm curious. With over 150 parameters to "tune", not including the cells in every table (spark advance has 204 cells, and this is a MAF setup, MAP TPI uses two spark tables) it would seem that outside of things such as native WBO2 support, crank sensors, or coil on plug setups, which can all be added if wanted, there isn't much more that an EFI system for the hobbyist would need or want.

cutlassefi

Price seems to be the constant with your responses.
Cheaper doesn't make it better. While you can find deals on certain parts here and there, often times that just equates to having to buy it again.

Just sayin.

dyeager535

If I bought this http://www.moates.net/innovate-g4-ga....html?cPath=48 5 years ago, it would have been $500 or more. Same product, if not even less refined. Has nothing to do with cost, has to do with what I need vs. want. I could never see getting $500 worth out of one, but $250 is a lot easier to swallow for something I have no more use now than I did then.

If cost was my main concern, I'd not be asking about keeping my Olds, Olds.

cutlassefi

Gotcha, good point on keeping the Olds an Olds. But the reason that was $250.00 is because they're only worth $100.00. Innovate is junk. Very inaccurate and inconsistent. Any of the free air calibrated O2 sensors aren't worth their weight in tin foil.
Sorry.

dyeager535

Good thing I didn't buy one then!