krooser

I pretty new over here... I thought I would let you guys know why I'm here and what I'm working on...

Recently one of my son's and I decided we were going to get back into the stock car racing game. All four of my boy's worked for me back in the 80's when I was promoting dirt tracks here in WI. My son Derek ran a few "official's races" and we started building a '74 Ford for him but that project was put on the back burner and later we sold it.

Now, 25 years later, he has decided he wants to drive so we kinda went in together on a G body street stock. I picked up a 330 Olds two years ago and had intended to put it in a '52 Pontiac custom project I have laying around. But I figured that 330 would make a good stock car power plant so here we go...

Tonite my buddy Jim and I pulled the heads, pan and front cover to see what we had to start with. I was told by the PO that the engine smoked due to a blown head gasket... it has some evidence of a little leakage between #4 and #6... just a little green tint to the steel head gasket. But the main tell tale sign was rust inside the valley... quite a bit of it.

The engine has #4 heads and came with a 4 bbl carb... I id'd it as a Weber AFB marine carb... a 750 cfm job. Probably too big for what we need. I have others in stock in smaller sizes so that's not a problem. I noticed the front cover had been off at one point (gobs of silicone) and thought it might have a performance cam in it... sure enough we found a Comp Cams 252H plus one collapsed lifter, one bent push rod and one bad cam lobe.

The timing chain looks like it has 2,000,000 miles on it and the front balancer is loose on the crank.... may need a speedy sleeve (or more!).

The crank appears to have been balanced but we don't know about the rest of the rotating assembly... we didn't pull the pistons... old age makes you quit these projects about 10PM.

Sunday we'll disassemble the block, mic the crank and the bores to see where we are at with this deal. I'll take the heads/block/crank to the local machine shop for cleaning and inspection Monday.

I have always liked Olds motors but the last one I redid was a 371 when I was 17... I used to drag with a 283 Chevy and my '64 GTO. Then I ran Fords on circle tracks for several years. The Olds deal makes me smile... I think we can run with all those Bow-Ties and make them wonder WTF has this guy got under the hood?

We are going to run this deal on 1/3 mile dirt tracks.

I have Charles @ CamCraft grinding a Maximum Torque bumpstick for it... .500 lift (we have a .500 lift rule) with 252 duration @ .050 (IIRC). These cams have some good ramps on 'em... we'll see. I can run a two barrel Holley at some tracks and a 4 barrel (no Holley's) at others. I may change pistons for some lite forged pieces.

I get some pix tomorrow.

captjim

Sounds like fun! You will find piston choices extremely limited for the 330. It does have the best Olds crank and decent heads, not sure what the rules allow as far as head work.

olds 307 and 403

Pistons are a bummer for the 330. I don't even think any 350 sbc pistons and rods will work unless you stroke it. Otherwise with head work and the right cam you should keep up no problem.

krooser

It can be bored to fit 350 pistons.... SBC rods can be used if you grind the crank to 2.1 and buy pistons with the right pin size but I doubt I'll do either.

This engine will be run under some strict "claim" rules ($450-$550.00)... while the Chevy guys like to spend lots of $$$ on their engines while still claiming they are less expensive to run! Most of these guys don't know anything about Olds engines anyway... many are too young to ever have seen one. I doubt anyone would even want this engine...

Now off to the shop.

cutlassefi

How high you going to spin it? 252@.050 seems a bit big, especially for such a small motor.

krooser

I figure about 6500 to 6800... a lot of the SBC's and Fords are running over 7500 but I don't have the budget for the right pieces to rev that high. They mostly run Holley 4412's but need the high rpm's to make power. When you restrict the intake you need the rev's to get HP. I'll run a 2 bbl when i have to.. otherwise it will be an AFB/Edelbrock. the rules don't limit cfm's on 4 bbls but you can't have a Holley.

The car will come off the corners about 3500 to 4000...

Octania

"It can be bored to fit 350 pistons...."

Well, then you have a 350. Not a 330.
What with the 45 vs 39 degree cam bank angle nonsense, and the engine's previous problems...

Why not start with a 350 block? Use the 330 forged crank if possible, and some good heads like the 4's you have. W31 flat top pistons were still available last time I checked. The only advantage to a 330 block is that you can bore to **STD** size 350, which for some reason still had W31 pistons available a while back.

Loose end of tolerance range bearings fitment and lots of oil flow should help it last.

If you can run the high octane fuel required with flat top pistons, and maximize the compression ratio, you should make a lot of torque, and be able to survive. Use old dented valve covers, of course, to complete the "beater engine" look.

olds 307 and 403

I forgot about those Ford pistons. I thought the sbc 350 pistons were too short on compression height, learned something new. I would go with a lighter piston with the thin ring pack, that is my plan on a 350 build. You may as well go aftermarket rods with those rpms. The 350 block can go much larger, bore wise. Is there an over bore limit?

captjim

I agree with Octania, the boring costs would be a LOT more than a 350 block. Also, not sure those heads will breathe at 6500 + RPM. But like you stated, officials and racers alike will have a hard time knowing if you are being "generous" with the rules as most know very little about Olds engines.

olds 307 and 403

IC719 would also work with the same mods. Forged and thinner ring pack. I see the 233 is a Pontiac 4cyl app, cool. Good luck and have fun.

L69

If ur interested I have a nos replacement set of 400e block 4" pistons that will fit nicely in the 330. I have built a few 330s with 4" pistons and they run really nicely. It comes out to aprox 340 ci and the comp height is the same. If u want then 150 plus shipping they r urs. They r flattops so u will have some nice compression with ur build

cutlassefi

Then I'd think about a reverse pattern cam.

krooser

Guess I have never heard of a reverse pattern cam....

krooser

I won't bore the block unless I have to.... there's virtually no cylinder ridge right now except for built-up carbon. I may just ball hone it and call it good.

If I do have to bore it I will probably use Venolia pistons. They built a really nice set for my blown 354 Hemi that sits in my '56 F100... their service was exceptional and the price was fair. I called other custom piston makers but outfits like Ross simply told me to buy off the shelf parts from their dealers. Venolia called my engine shop for bore info, cc's of the chambers, can specs, head gasket thickness, etc. so they built the right amount of compression into the pistons. If I go the forged route, I'll try to run the lightest piston available and use Total Seal rings as provided by Venolia.

Howard Cams is right down the road from me and they have some decent stainless valves and retainers that I can us e and they are priced right.

The rules don't allow any porting or grinding so I will TRY to keep everything stock on the heads... maybe do a light cut to be sure I have a good gasket seal. I also have to deal with a cast iron intake/exhaust rule. Some of the Chevy guys use cheater intakes that have been heavily ported... but I couldn't care less. Let 'em waste $900.00 on those intakes and $1800.00 cheater ported heads.

The engine shop will tell me what else I really need after a good cleaning and a trip thru the magnuflux deal.

This whole engine build is supposed to be done on a tight budget.... but I will spend the $$$ where it will do the most good. It's going into a $575.00 street stock....

cutlassefi

Uhh, I thought this was a claimer build

And I'd think twice about using stuff from Howards. Their lifters are made in the USA but otherwise they buy more from China than Eagle does. I just pruchased a set of springs from them. They weren't near what they were supposed to be.

krooser

That's good to know... I haven't really heard much about their stuff good or bad. They do tout their USA rods and cranks... don't know much else about the other stuff they sell. I know they have a fairly good size in-house mfg. facility. I'm not much on Chi-Com parts, either.

Yep... it IS a claimer engine but we all know it's pretty tuff to build one for the claim amount. You have to build what you can afford to lose for the claim amount. The first four guys in the main are eligible to be claimed... if you only run 5th you can have a Robert Yates engine and not have to worry... no one will go after your engine unless you stink up the show week after week. No one cares who runs 5th.

My last time wearing a track promoters hat I claimed three engines in one season using my promoters option... pretty stout small blocks that had no business in the class. I actually drew names from a hat and gave them away to the other drivers... one guy told me his 350 was toast the night he won a claimed engine... saved his season.

I'm working on another deal promoting at a track close to my home. If it works out, I'll be wearing two different hats in the racing game again. I have a presentation to give to the fair board in January... we'll see how it goes.

krooser

I snapped a pic before my kodak went dead... you can see the rust in the lifter valley... a sure sign of moisture. The oil was kinda lumpy when it came out of the oil pan, too. Not brown and crappy... just lumpy.

Jim and I also found a loose oil pick-up that we can rotate at will... and #3 had a bent pushrod... #6 had a collapsed lifter and #7 a bad cam lobe... must have run good.

I still have to pull the short block down... maybe before the Sunday night f-ball game. I'm kinda beat after squeezing my hot rod out of the shop and loading it on the trailer to take to storage. Never made it that far as it was way too slippery to drive 10 miles pulling a trailer with a slammed Ram pick-up.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...g?t=1355094376

70vert

Where are you planning on racing in wi? I have been involved in dirt short track racing in wisconsin for 20 years and currently my brother is running a wissota late model.

krooser

We will test the waters wherever we are welcome... Oshkosh, 141, Seymour, maybe Luxemburg. Depending on the rules we may venture north to Three Lakes, Eagle River and Tomahawk, too.

I used to run at Hales Corners, Cedarburg, Slinger (when it was dirt) and Wilmot. I also worked at Capital, Slinger and 141 and promoted at Luxemburg and Chilton during the late 80's.

The car we bought was run at Golden Sands and State Park for several years... needs some TLC but it should be fun.

70vert

We raced at all those places this year and also at wilmot and shawano. I hope to see you get it together it would be nice to see an olds powered car on the track and in general more people involved. I started my racing career at Hales Corners with a street stock and moved to building imca modifieds and dirt late models for a living for a while but now i just help my brother with his car. I think we will be racing shawano weekly but will be traveling with wdlma especially to oshkosh because that is one of his favorite tracks.

krooser

There's a guy down south who won a modified championship with a 350 Olds engine... been trying to get a message to him about his engine to no avail... we'll see how this deal goes. I like to have fun so we don't take this stuff too seriously but I do try to do the best i can within my resources.

My first trip to Shawano Speedway was in '58... my Uncle ran a restaurant in town and I was free summer help. We used to ride our bikes to watch the Saturday night jalopy races...

krooser

Got the short block torn down.

The crank has been turned 10/10 sometime in the past... looks to be a standard bore. The pistons are in great shape except for the rust and grimey oil all over them.

The #6 rod bearing is toast and a couple more have some copper showing. I think this was caused by water mixing with the oil. The mains could be reused they are so good.

The crank snout is worn... the crank hub was loose on the snout. I measured .003's wear in a few places... and the keyway is also worn. I will have this welded and machined if needed.

I loaded up the heads, block and crank and took them to my local machine shop. They will disassemble the heads, hot tank all the parts and mag the heads, crank and block. Then I'll bring it back home to fill the crossover and the center divider then decide what plan of attack to take for the rebuild.

UPDATE... just mic'd the pistons and it IS a standard bore block.

krooser

Another question on engine balancing... looks like these SBO's are external balanced. When I ran Ford's we internally balanced the engines and used zero balanced flywheels and dampers... does the same apply here? Can I buy a neutral balanced damper and remove the balancing weights from the flexplate? This engine had the simple balancing weight and pulley... no damper.

cutlassefi

Most aftermarket balancers for Olds have removeable weights. No issue.

f-85

If your looking for any backup parts or motor. I just picked up some 350s from a guy who ran hobby stock. One motor is complete with 4.125 bore, flatop pistons with valve reliefs. Zero decked, 7 heads milled to around 60cc, large intake valves, comp roller tip rockers, comp 292 cam, windage tray, some larger rod bolts, bb pan. Its got some numbers stamped on the crank from when it was balanced. I also have some other 350 parts too. PM me if interested.

krooser

Okay.... I just disassembled the one collapsed valve lifter that was in the engine...just curious to it's condition. After a little cleaning up it's working fine.

There was a CompCam's 252H cam in it... the lifter seat has six small holes drilled around the outer circumference of the pushrod seat right under the wire retaining ring... is this some sort of anti-pump up feature? never saw this on a stock lifter...

Anyone know?

krooser

Talked to the machine shop yesterday... sez the crank snout is toast. But not so fast... I'm going to talk to the local crankshaft shop and see if they can weld it up and recut the keyway...

I should have the bare block and heads back later this week.

krooser

Now we have a camshaft... from Camcraft.

Specs...

Advertised duration intake 288 exhaust 284
@.050 intake 238 exhaust 234
Lift .491 w/ 1.6 rockers
Lobe separation 109
Centerlines intake 103 exhaust 115
Intake opens @ 16 btdc... intake closes @ 42 abdc
Exhaust opens @ 52 bbdc... exhaust closes @ 2 atdc

Recommended spring pressures 130lbs @ seat... 320 lbs open

The instructions say to "Always break in cam with outer springs only!!! Or use weaker springs or single springs when application pressures exceed 280lbs". Sage advice I would think...

May the discussions begin... BTW those "backwards" duration specs are correct...

Still waiting for a phone call from the machine shop so I can pick up my crank, heads and block.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...g?t=1357558349

krooser

So my young helper and I spend a few hours in the shop the past few nights cleaning parts... haven't got the block and heads back from the shop as of yet... those guys must work for the government!

Anyway... I pulled the old piston rings off the pistons... the combustion chambers on the heads were very black with carbon as were the exhaust ports and valves. The pistons were slimy with oil and carbon... no wonder as I found all the ring gaps were aligned!

This thing must have been plenty smokey!

OldSchoolMuscle71

if you dont mind me asking, about how much did it cost you to have the block freshened up along with the heads? i know the crank will be an additional expense because of the welding and cutting you now need to do it, but it would give me a good ballpark number on what Im gunna need for my 350 when the time comes..

krooser

I just had the block, heads and crank hot tanked and mag'd....

I pick 'em up in the AM and I'll let ya know the numbers.

krooser

Well I got my heads, crank and block back from the engine shop a couple days ago. I just has 'em hot tank the parts so there is some leftover surface rust and gasket material left on the surfaces but not much.

My Hemi came back spotless a few years ago but that shop baked the parts and shot blasted them... way cleaner.

Everything mag'd OK... the crank needs repairs but I have found a replacement. The block needs to be bored...

Now to get the drill, sanders and wire brushes to work.

krooser

Had a busy day today... found a really good guy who donated a 403 crank, flex plate and rods and pistons to the cause... and tossed in a 389 poncho intake to boot!?!

I loaded my bride up in the car and made the 100 mile one way trip to scenic Door County, WI to Bryon's house. He has a Trans Am that housed the 403 before the block cracked. He replaced the engine with a nice 70 olds 350.

The 403 had been recently rebuilt... the crank is ground 10/10 and the rods have nearly new bearing in them so I will reuse them since they have already found a home on that 403 crank...

It's a cold, blustery night here tonite. At 10PM I got my second wind after a nice nap in the recliner so it's off to the shop to fill the pellet stove and do some work.

cutlassefi

Seeing as how all Olds use the same balancer and flexplate, make sure you rebalance that rotating assembly. The 403 pistons and rods are heavier than a 350. Therefore the counterweights are a bit different, take a look.

Keep us posted.

krooser

Yep.... I will rebalance the whole deal... plus I need to get a balancer since the one from the 330 is junque.

cutlassefi

And just an fyi, that crank ain't as strong as the earlier N's.

krooser

I guess my build ideas have changed somewhat from my earlier ones...

I usually go into new projects with guns a blazing... but, with business poor and me having a big new business project on tap, I don't have the $$$ to do what I had intended to do... offset stroker, brand X rods and pistons, good porting, etc.

So now it looks like I will use some 400 pistons and this cast crank with stock heads just to test the waters and see if I can get an Olds to live in the environment I will run it in.

There's a local guy here who used to race with me at the dirt tracks I promoted at and he gave up on the Olds engines and switched to big Buicks until they were pretty much outlawed when they routinely spanked the SBC crowd. He was forced to make the switch to brand X or quit.

The fact that he's no dummy when it comes to engines is making me a bit nervous about building an expensive (for me) engine only to have it puke from poor oiling or some mistake I made when putting it together. Better to learn on a cheap deal I guess.

The class I'm running in is fairly restrictive on engine specs although the Chevy guys cheat on a regular basis. There are a bunch of tracks that have done away with the cheap engine claim ($450.00) and now have "crate" motors and "open" motors with complex specs for casting numbers, etc. But a lot of guys are running $900.00 cheater iron intakes, hogged out exhaust manifolds and $2K cheated iron heads.

I always favored the claimer rules... so I'll see how this Olds works for me. The other factors are chassis and driver... another whole ball of wax. I have a an old beater G-body that needs a new front stub and that will take some time away from this engine build. I can't do everything I want and still get out there in 2013. So I will compromise.

Honestly I'd run a MOPAR if the rules made it competitive but you can't run Magnum heads and they'd cry a river if I showed up with a Duster sitting on a Dakota leaf spring chassis so I'll bide my time and see how this Olds deal works out.

Octania

I'd replace the 330 crank and have a forged piece in there.

With the 403 rods.

That's what my latest 403 has.

olds 307 and 403

Just don't over rev that motor and all will be fine. That crank is much weaker than your 330 crank. If you fry that crank, don't worry, it isn't worth anything. They are supposedly gray iron and weak. I spun my 403 past 5500 rpm a few times and pretty sure a rod bearing is spun. Make sure really tight clearances weren't put on that crank or bad things will happen. I would find someone to add a sleeve to the snoot or weld that forged steel crank you have and have it ready for back up.

krooser

The local crank shop will get a visit from me Monday. I spoke with him on the phone last week... he indicated my steel crank was just cast as he has never seen a forged SBO crank.

He said he didn't think he could repair the snout... the keyway is worn. I want him to look at it. Or maybe I can find another shop to take a peek although this outfit is really the only game in town and has been used by thousands of racers for 40 years.

I could always rebuild my 330 rods if that would help but I don't think it would make any difference.

I have found another steel crank and flexplate so maybe I will use that although I was kinda saving it for another SBO if I do another.

We used cast Ford cranks without any problems but always kept the rev's under 6500.... the Brand X guys would change their cast 400 cranks every year to be safe.

Meanwhile I'm on the hunt for my old porting carbides... found my last abrasive rolls and a mandrel. And I'm going to sacrifice an old stock 351-C Ford piston to fill the exhaust crossover... here it is on death row.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...120131119a.jpg