When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I am trying to decode my cowl tag (see photo) ...what I think I know (I have added a question marks where I am not sure)... Any help would be much appreciated. 03A - 1st week of March 66-33867 - 1966 Oldsmobile Cutlass Convertible LAN - Lansing 5107 - what is this?? 993-B - Blue Vinyl Bucket Seat?? D-4 - Lucerne Mist, Blue Top W 2L - Tinted Windshield, M-20 4-speed 5VY - W-29 Trim (all 442 markings and equipment), Deluxe Seat Belts
it is the 5107th 33867 body "Fisher Body LANsing" built
Where did you hear this from? I don't think this is true.
The cowl tag on my '78 Toronado is below. The body number is 202,084, and there is no way that there were 200,000+ Toronados (body style 57) built in 1978. Total Toro production that year was only about 25,000.
The date built code is 08C, which is third week of August 1977, or just a few weeks after '78 model year production began. There is no way they could have built that many cars in a month no matter what model it was.
Even more telling, here is the VIN plate from my car. Note the last six digits. 700005. Toronado serial numbers started at 700001 for 1978, so my car was the 5th Toronado built, which is consistent with the early build date. So how can my car be the fifth one built yet have the 200,000th body produced? Makes no sense.
Last edited by jaunty75; January 26th, 2018 at 08:30 PM.
it wasn't asked what the numbers on your '78 Toronado's tag represented
"WE" were talking 1966 Cutlass convertibles - things changed every couple of years, by '68 numbers were used differently, another 10 years later (I don't know) I haven't researched it
it wasn't asked what the numbers on your '78 Toronado's tag represented
"WE" were talking 1966 Cutlass convertibles - things changed every couple of years, by '68 numbers were used differently, another 10 years later (I don't know) I haven't researched it
This makes even less sense. It doesn't matter what "WE" were talking about. Why would GM/Fisher Body/whatever attach order-of-production information to the Fisher Body number in 1966 but then stop doing it by 1978 and just go to assigning random numbers? Or why would they only do it for convertibles and not other body styles?
as far as your VIN "700005" it is the 5th ASSIGNED Toronado VIN for the 1978 model year - it is NOT the 5th built
It may not be the 5th built, but it's an early build as the 08C indicates, and that's certainly not consistent with a body number of over 200,000 if that number means anything as far as production sequence.
Originally Posted by hurst68olds
do you have pics of any other '78 Toronado body tags? XS tags?
No. Do I need some?
Originally Posted by hurst68olds
when did Toronado body construction move to Lansing, MI from Euclid, OH?
I don't know. Who cares? All Toronados were built at Lansing for every year of production. Again, even if the bodies were built in Euclid, Ohio, or Bora Bora for that matter, and sent to Lansing, they could not have built 200,000 of them in only a few weeks of production. And they didn't build 200,000 of them, anyway, because only 25,000 Toronados were built that year.
So the body number on my car means nothing as far as production sequence, and that means, I strongly suspect, that it means nothing on any GM car.
just like the VIN sequence on 1978 Toronados starting with 700001, WHY? everything does NOT start with "1"
if you would like to start a discussion on your car & '78 numbers start it & I'll participate
1966 Oldsmobile production at Lansing = 376,012
this consisted of 183,442 a-bodies (109,509 were 3800 series Cutlass = 60%)
a-bodies were also assembled at:
Bloomfield, NJ = 552 (I believe these are all "CKD" complete-knock-down units to be exported)
Fremont, CA = 29,183 (19,561 were 3800 series Cutlass = 67%)
Framingham, MA = 16,396 (7,825 were 3800 series Cutlass = 48%)
3800 series total = 136,895 (80% at LANSING)
the following is BAD MATH for demonstration purposes ONLY, I don't know if Cutlass convertibles were built at all three plants or just Lansing & Fremont? but it will get "US" in the ballpark
33867 * 1966 Cutlass convertible production = 12,145 (80% would be ~9,716 at Lansing, 11 months would average 883 per month, 48 weeks would be 202 per week - ESTIMATES) all months do not have equal production & demand for convertibles would not be consistent thru-out the model year
the OP's 442:
6 months of production done before the first of March '66 = 6 x 883 = 5,298(plus 1 week for 03A) 5,298 + 202 = 5,500 bodies by the end of 03A
the sample body tag attached:
10 months of production done before the first of July '66 = 10 x 883 = 8,830(plus 2 weeks for 07B) 8,830 + 404 = 9,234 bodies by the end of 07B
With all of the above said, you have a beautiful example of a 1966 Cutlass/442. Pictured is my 66 Cutlass vert on delivery day. Very hard to forget that color combo. Thanks for the pictures.
Wayne
Hi Wayne...
That was the exact color combination that my 442 had when I bought it in 1971. The top was bad so I had to replace it, and I went with black. 10 years later I replace all the interior components to black so it would match the top. Now I wish I didn't.
I hunted for a long time with no luck so I bought a Target Red 66 vert with a 4-speed. I bought that car after returning from my stint with USAF in March 66. That arrival picture was the day I picked it up. 330/320 HP, P/S, P/B, Strato Buckets, Lucerne Mist/ Light blue interior and top, M-20 and minimum slip with dual exhaust. I wish I had taken mor pictures. It was striking. Any chance you will be at Homecoming hopefully as I would love to see it.Thanks for your time
Wayne
just like the VIN sequence on 1978 Toronados starting with 700001, WHY? everything does NOT start with "1"
if you would like to start a discussion on your car & '78 numbers start it & I'll participate
Any system that explains or decodes the Fisher body number has to be able to explain ALL of them, not just some of them. You've gone through significant contortions to explain 1966, and you've cited production numbers of the various models at various plants that I've never seen anywhere else, not even in Setting the Pace. I'm sure the authors of that book would love to know where you got those numbers.
Here's another example that is difficult to explain. It's the cowl tag from my '67 Delta 88 convertible. The body number is only three digits, 642. Note the build date, 05D. Olds built just under 2500 Delta 88 convertibles for 1967. If that 652 represents the 652nd D-88 convertible body that year, why were they only at body number 652 out of 2500, or barely more than 20%, at a point, 4th week of May 1967, only a month and a half or so before the end of '67 model year production? I would have expected them to be up to body number 2000 or somewhere in there if that number is somehow related to the order of production.
People, including me, have been wanting to believe since the beginning of time that there is some kind of information encoded in the body number, but no one has ever presented any evidence that this is true. Olds and GM went through great pains in the opening section of every year's chassis service manual to explain how the VIN sequence numbers are derived. 1000001 is the starting number for this model at that plant. 200001 is the starting number for that model at this plant. Etc. Etc. Etc. But never once did Olds devote even a syllable, let alone a sentence or a paragraph, to an explanation of the body number. Why not? The simple answer, which is usually the correct answer, is that there was nothing to talk about.
Last edited by jaunty75; January 27th, 2018 at 07:15 AM.
I'll weigh in. I'm an automotive engineer for Toyota, and I don't bring it up much here as this isn't a Toyota board, but, if you'll indulge me, perhaps I can help. A car plant does final assembly in sequence, and the vin tag matches that. Before the vin, the cars are simply parts that can be moved around. Our plants maintain a paint selectivity buffer so that adjustments can be made on the fly as to what vehicle gets lifted to assembly, but they are usually painted in order.
In assembly, the first thing the car gets is a vin. Right before that, the manifest is printed and clipped to the hood. Previous to that, there is no manifest because the car is being painted, and, before that, the car is being welded. Before that, it is stamped parts loose.
Once you begin to assemble a car, you need to track it through the plant with a non-removable number. Our cars don't have cowl tags; we stamp the radiator support. I worked that process for a couple days at the Kentucky plant, and, as soon as the welded core support was picked up and going to be put into something that would be a car, it got a number stamped on it.
What I mean is, it's simply an internal tracking number to keep track of that body until it becomes an official car. We also have sequence numbers 000-999 that roll over that get printed on the manifest, but that's an assembly only thing.
So, like this, if Jaunty and I worked together: "Hey, Jaunty, I pulled body 13425 off because of a tear in the quarter panel, can you see if weld confirmation fixed it yet and, if so, when we can put it back in?" It doesn't have a vin yet, so it's just a part.
I'll weigh in. I'm an automotive engineer for Toyota, and I don't bring it up much here as this isn't a Toyota board, but, if you'll indulge me, perhaps I can help.
Thank you for your insight.
Originally Posted by Koda
A car plant does final assembly in sequence, and the vin tag matches that.
So does this mean that my '78 Toro actually IS the 5th one built for 1978? I've heard from several sources, including hurst68 above, that it was the 5th VIN assigned for 1978 but not necessarily the 5th to come off the line. I've wondered how closely the order off the line matched the VIN sequence number.
Originally Posted by Koda
Before the vin, the cars are simply parts that can be moved around.
So your comments, as a whole, essentially say that, no, there is no order-of-production significance to the body number, at least in your experience. At least, that's how I read your comments. The body tag number was more like a tracking number until the body was assigned to a particular chassis, or something like that.
Any system that explains or decodes the Fisher body number has to be able to explain ALL of them, not just some of them. You've gone through significant contortions to explain 1966, and you've cited production numbers of the various models at various plants that I've never seen anywhere else, not even in Setting the Pace. I'm sure the authors of that book would love to know where you got those numbers.
Here's another example that is difficult to explain. It's the cowl tag from my '67 Delta 88 convertible. The body number is only three digits, 642. Note the build date, 05D. Olds built just under 2500 Delta 88 convertibles for 1967. If that 652 represents the 652nd D-88 convertible body that year, why were they only at body number 652 out of 2500, or barely more than 20%, at a point, 4th week of May 1967, only a month and a half or so before the end of '67 model year production? I would have expected them to be up to body number 2000 or somewhere in there if that number is somehow related to the order of production.
People, including me, have been wanting to believe since the beginning of time that there is some kind of information encoded in the body number, but no one has ever presented any evidence that this is true. Olds and GM went through great pains in the opening section of every year's chassis service manual to explain how the VIN sequence numbers are derived. 1000001 is the starting number for this model at that plant. 200001 is the starting number for that model at this plant. Etc. Etc. Etc. But never once did Olds devote even a syllable, let alone a sentence or a paragraph, to an explanation of the body number. Why not? The simple answer, which is usually the correct answer, is that there was nothing to talk about.
All 2500 Delta 88 verts built in Lansing? If not that explains the low body number on yours. Other plants were making them too.
Jaunty, yes, I mean the body number is just a serial number. It should roughly correspond to the order of production, but there are exceptions, and they can start wherever.
As for your vin, I know, on the Indiana west line, the Highlander behind the one in front of it will have the same vin serial number plus one, ie 0005 to 0006. But, the Sequoia behind it, I don't think he's 0007. So, on a line that made mostly Cutlass cars with an occasional Toronado, I am going to GUESS that they had different vin ranges and counted sequentially separately by cars, making yours actually the fifth Toro, but that's only a guess.
All 2500 Delta 88 verts built in Lansing? If not that explains the low body number on yours. Other plants were making them too.
Not necessarily. While different plants were making the cars, only Fisher body made the bodies, right? And then they were shipped to the various plants for final assembly? So, I would assume that, if the body numbers were sequential, a late model year build would a high body number no matter where it was built.
Here's another one that throws a monkey wrench into the idea that body number is somehow related to order of production. This is from another thread here, where the fellow has a '69 98 convertible.
Body number 446930. Explain that one. No way there were almost 447,000 98 convertibles made in that year or any year or even over the lifetime of the 98 model. If you assume that the body number was treated like a VIN with the starting number 400001 instead of 000001 (where there's no evidence that this is actually true), that would mean it was the 46,930th 98 convertible made, which still fails the smell test. Olds made only 4,288 98 convertibles that year, so there's no way, if the bodies were numbered sequentially, whether order of production or not, that the count would reach almost 47,000. And the 98 was made only at the Lansing plant, so there's no possibility of bodies being sent to different plants and complicating the meaning of the body number.
No, what Koda says makes the most sense. These are just tracking numbers of some kind unrelated to any time-related aspect of the production process and unrelated to the series or body style of the car it's attached to. It was just a unique number assigned to that body for tracking purposes.
I am going to GUESS that they had different vin ranges and counted sequentially separately by cars, making yours actually the fifth Toro, but that's only a guess.
I'd love to believe that mine is the fifth Toro built that year. But I've heard plausible arguments otherewise. The most convincing is the special-ordered car. When a customer goes to a dealer and, instead of just choosing a car off the lot, he special orders one with just the options he wants, that order is assigned a VIN as soon as it is received by the factory even though the car might not be assembled until several days later. This means that several built-on-spec Toros could have come off the line between when the order was received and when the car was actually built, thus throwing off the sequence.
I certainly don't know that this is the way it worked, but it makes sense, and thus what hurst68 said earlier, that my car has the fifth assigned VIN, and it is not necessarily the fifth Toro made. But it certainly reasonable to assume that it was among the first, say, 10 or 20 Toros made?
Maybe not.
Olds made 24,815 Toronados in 1978. If you assume an 11 month production year, and if you assume a steady production rate over that time, then that's 24,815/11 = 2,256 Toronados per month, or about 525 per week or about 105 per day if a week was five days. I don't know that my car was a special order as the seller was the second owner. But this production rate puts the location of my car in the production sequence possibly much later if it was a special order.
If it was a special order car, and if the VIN was assigned when the order was received, and if the car was built, say, three days later, then over 300 Toros would have been produced between when mine was assigned a VIN and before it came off the line. So it might very well be nowhere near among the first few built.
But that's assuming it was a special order. If not, it might very well be the fifth off the line or close to it.
I'll never know for sure, but it's fun to speculate.
Just to keep beating on this horse, here's the dealer invoice for my car I obtained from the GM Heritage Center.
Note the upper left, third column over after VEHICLE IDENT. NO. and COLOR TRIM. It says DLR. ORD. I assume that's a dealer order number. Did a number appear in this box for every car built, or only for special order cars? I'd guess the latter?
the way they were numbered/tracked at Fisher Body was modified/changed every couple of years
there was a Fisher Body plant within/adjacent/near every assembly plant
are "WE" talking '66, '67, '69 or '78? methods change year-to-year & definitely over decades & between manufacturers - I could throw some 1961 Starfire data in the mix that would totally derail this thread, if it isn't already (maybe some '60 T-Bird and/or some Mopar?)
full size Oldsmobiles were assembled at 4 plants for 1967 (Lansing, Linden, Kansas City & Southgate)
I can account for '67 Delta 88 convertible production at 3 of them, did Southgate build any "35867"s?
your Delta 88 convertible was the 642nd 35867 BODY built by FISHER BODY LANSING for the 1967 model year
is it 358677M349273, 358677M349315, other?
here is another Delta 88 convertible: the 540th 35867 BODY built by FISHER BODY KANSAS CITY for the 1967 model year, it was assigned VIN 358677X145100
I know in 66 all 98's were built in Lansing,no other assy. plants. Not sure about other years tho.
that is great info if "WE" were talking 98s or Toronados and info & details of those builds would help demonstrate the body build #s and months/weeks of production VS. VIN ranges
dealing with one car line exclusively built at one plant is definitely easier to understand
just like the body number, there will be comments about "these numbers have no meaning", nothing was done random or for no purpose, it's just the knowledge or use has been lost to time
many cars were DEALER ORDERD "back-in-the-day" either for a customer to their spec. or to be placed on the lot FOR SALE built to the dealer's spec. based on what the dealer thought would be preferred at his location
these are simply "ORDERED CARS"
"SPECIAL ORDERED CARS" usually refers to cars that had OPTIONS or PAINT that was not directly available out of the order guides - special order paint is probably the most common - I had a 442 that was painted a "TORONADO ONLY" color, that was a special ordered car
DEALER ORDER NUMBER can be stamped/printed in a number of locations
Not necessarily. While different plants were making the cars, only Fisher body made the bodies, right? And then they were shipped to the various plants for final assembly? So, I would assume that, if the body numbers were sequential, a late model year build would a high body number no matter where it was built.
Fisher Body in Lansing didnt build bodies then send them to other plants around the country. The other plants had their own Fisher Body divisions.
January 26th, 2018, 06:43 PM
